Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[notDatsyuk]

Yes, I realize that the isolated examples were being used to prop up Nylander, but that doesn't change that it involved Marner and was in response to a discussion involving Marner in the Marner thread. People are justifiably going to ask how your overarching argument relates to Marner.

Partial replies that completely misconstrue everything and avoid the gist.

Standard for you, Dekes, and again proving my point. Thanks.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Partial replies that completely misconstrue everything and avoid the gist.

What exactly is "partial" about my reply? What was "misconstrued"? What "gist" was avoided?
You posted something that supposedly has nothing to do with Marner, despite including Marner in it, in the Marner thread, in response to my discussion involving Marner, and you got upset at me and insulted me because after fully responding to your argument, I dared to ask how the argument related to Marner in the first place and explained why it didn't...

 

[Stephen]

I’m expecting Marner to heat up very dramatically in the next little while and be his usual self again as part of the annual tradition.

 

[JL17]

We can debate stats all you want. End of the day what happens in those 60+ minutes in the playoffs determines how good or bad Marner was. Unfortunately Marner has had the same playoffs for the last 4 years. Very underwhelming for a guy making the money he’s making.

The game get more structured gets more physical and space becomes limited. He has yet to adapt and figure out to be productive like the regular season. We’ve all seen him be timid not willing to get into battles.

Nylander has been better than him in the playoffs. Out of the core 4 I’d go Nylander, Matthews, Tavares then Marner interms of overall performance.

Marner needs to be better end of story.

I’d rather see Marner get 80 points this year and have a focus on playing playoff hockey. Shorter shifts, smart plays less cute stuff and if you’re going to make cute plays they have to below the tops of the circles in the Ozone.

 

[Canadian Finn]

his usual self is the problem. his usual self isn't a winner. his usual self isn't worth what he is paid.

it's time he becomes better than his usual self.

then again, this is bitch marner we are talking about. he doesn't have a winning bone in his body.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I feel like a home grown home town elite playmaking winger is a natural compliment to our goal scoring Cs. When JT expires this will all be less stressful.

It'll be less stressful if and when the team stops underachieving/choking in the playoffs. If JT expires and it keeps happening, the stress will increase exponentially.

I think it is quite fruitless or just discussing for the sake of argument if we are going to break down every assist of players to see if he is worth it or not.

To say that MM doesn't drive the team or he is a product of playing with AM or JT is just wrong. He is a great player and got great talents. However, he does seem to tense up or choke when the pressure is high, ie elimination games. Now but thats not just him as it seemed like only Reilly turned on that playoff switch among our top guys. Even Willie needed something to fire him up, often a horrible play by him, in the series before he started to play better.

Exactly! It's not just Marner, it's just that his case seems to be the most extreme.

 

[notDatsyuk]

What exactly is "partial" about my reply? What was "misconstrued"? What "gist" was avoided?
You posted something that supposedly has nothing to do with Marner, despite including Marner in it, in the Marner thread, in response to my discussion involving Marner, and you got upset at me and insulted me because after fully responding to your argument, I dared to ask how the argument related to Marner in the first place and explained why it didn't...

'Partial' because you only replied to part of my post (and conveniently deleted the part you didn't like).

'Misconstrued' because you took my point about something else and made it all about Marner.

The 'gist' was that blanket numbers can be misleading, regardless of the player, and you had to make it about a player.

Again, I didn't name Marner in the initial post, but some people feel they need to defend him when he isn't even mentioned.

I'm not upset with (not 'at') you, but merely amused, and I haven't insulted you at all.

If you explained why the argument didn't relate to Marner, why are you still complaining that it is about Marner?

 

[Dekes For Days]

'Partial' because you only replied to part of my post (and conveniently deleted the part you didn't like).
'Misconstrued' because you took my point about something else and made it all about Marner.
The 'gist' was that blanket numbers can be misleading, regardless of the player, and you had to make it about a player.
Again, I didn't name Marner in the initial post, but some people feel they need to defend him when he isn't even mentioned.
I'm not upset with (not 'at') you, but merely amused, and I haven't insulted you at all.
If you explained why the argument didn't relate to Marner, why are you still complaining that it is about Marner?

You're well aware that you edited in your second sentence after you posted, so there's definitely some "misconstruing" going on, but not from me. It also didn't really add anything that had to be addressed. It was just acknowledgement that somebody else had already been confused about your post's relevance to Marner. Unfortunately, you didn't take that as an indication that you had done something confusing and it wasn't everybody else's fault.

I didn't "misconstrue" anything or |make it all about Marner". I responded fully to your overarching argument, and then asked a simple question about it's relevance to the discussion and thread, before taking the initiative to explain why it didn't really apply anyway. I addressed your "gist" that numbers can be misleading, and noted ways in which their usefulness can be improved. It's unclear what your objective was, since you seem to enjoy points and numbers quite a bit when it suits you.

I also haven't "complained that it is about Marner". Only noted that the thread and the discussion you joined were. It's obviously going to cause some confusion when you respond with something supposedly unrelated, but you got your full answer anyway, so not sure why you chose hostility and to misrepresent me. I think we're done here.

 

[mikeyz]

 

[Arzak]

2/2 Both are right and for sure someone can accidently forget Sheldon in Boston.


Also, fools,context much ?!
If they just checked %/expected per 60 against average, they would know Mitch is elite every night and Kucherov in games 7 suck.

 

[IPS]

I’d rather see Marner get 80 points this year and have a focus on playing playoff hockey. Shorter shifts, smart plays less cute stuff and if you’re going to make cute plays they have to below the tops of the circles in the Ozone.

He doesn't get the paycheck he gets to only put up 80 points.

He needs 100+ points in the regular season. We don't have the secondary pieces to pick up the slack, no cap for it.

 

[Racer88]

Don’t drop Marner down a line……park him on the bench for a period

 

[Antropovsky]

Don’t drop Marner down a line……park him on the bench for a period

Put Tavares and Matthews on a line together... Put Nylander and Marner on lines 2 and 3 and let them go head to head carrying their own lines. If your worth 11+ million you shouldn't need elite linemates to produce.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You're well aware that you edited in your second sentence after you posted, so there's definitely some "misconstruing" going on, but not from me. It also didn't really add anything that had to be addressed. It was just acknowledgement that somebody else had already been confused about your post's relevance to Marner. Unfortunately, you didn't take that as an indication that you had done something confusing and it wasn't everybody else's fault.

I didn't "misconstrue" anything or |make it all about Marner". I responded fully to your overarching argument, and then asked a simple question about it's relevance to the discussion and thread, before taking the initiative to explain why it didn't really apply anyway. I addressed your "gist" that numbers can be misleading, and noted ways in which their usefulness can be improved. It's unclear what your objective was, since you seem to enjoy points and numbers quite a bit when it suits you.

I also haven't "complained that it is about Marner". Only noted that the thread and the discussion you joined were. It's obviously going to cause some confusion when you respond with something supposedly unrelated, but you got your full answer anyway, so not sure why you chose hostility and to misrepresent me. I think we're done here.

Wow. If you can't even admit your mistakes when they are pointed out that clearly, then I have to agree with you: we are done here.

'Hostility'? No, merely amusement.

And as amusing as your posts can be, the futility of trying to explain anything to you quickly moves them to the 'tedious' category.

 

[Antropovsky]

Interesting to break down Marners points in the Tampa game and you realize his points aren't to get excited about. Knies on the other hands are:

Points 1
Primary assist - Knies and Matthews retrieve puck, Matthews with nifty reverse pass to Marner. Marner sends a soft shot/pass to the net and Knies finishes it.

Play driver: The most difficult tasks were by Knies, including winning puck battle, crashing the net, and finishing the goal.

Point 2:
2nd assist (secondary) - Nothing special, Marner walks the blueline, passes the puck laterally to Brodie, who passes the puck to Matthews, who scores from quite a distance with a wrister, while Knies is screening goalie.

Play driver: The real work is Knies phenomenal screen on the goalie.

Point 3:
3rd assist: Secondary Assist - Knies wins battle for puck and passes puck to Matthews, who sends it to Marner. Marner (stationary) sends a breakout pass from the neutral zone over the offensive blueline where Knies hunts down puck and throws a nifty backhandpass to Matthews in the slot for the goal. Knies also puts himself in a position to be hit by Hedman but makes the play anyway.

Play driver: Easily Knies again. He wins the puck battle again. He hunts down the puck, showing no fear of incoming contact from behind and makes the skilled but quick thinking backhand pass.

4th point:
Goal -The camera angle is cut off to see how Tampa got out of position and let Marner get behind them on a partial break. Looks like a bad line change that the leafs took advantage of.

Play driver: Marner with the hockey sense to get behind the D, and the finish. Though these defensive lapses by defenses are rare come playoffs.

I don't see plays Marner making as exciting, or successful come playoffs.

1) He's still relying on the difficult, and heavy lifting of the plays to be done by his teammates.
- They are winning pick races, they are winning battles, they are screening goalies, they are taking pucks to the net
- Most of Marners plays in these videos are from slow skating or stationary positions
- Marner is generally on the perimeter or outside the zone.

Knies on the other hand, like he was in the playoffs, was a play driver and also the plays are the type that work in the playoffs'

1) He's winning a puck battle in the corner and going to the net to score.
2) Hes standing nearly in the blue paint, completely blocking the goalies eyes from his teammates shot.
3rd) He's winning a puck battle, chasing down a pass, outskating the opponent, putting himself in a position to be hit and sending a quick decision pass across ice to his teammate.


Here's the videos to watch plays yourself:

 

[Jojalu]

Marner's 7 points this October is worse than the 9 he had last year, but he scored 20 in November. 2 years ago he had 3 points in all of Octotber and 16 in November. Let's see if that pattern continues...

Indeed it looks like the trend has continued

 

[ACC1224]

Crazy elite last two games.

 

[Drytoast]

His ask for fair market value should be 9

Crazy elite last two games.

He caused a turn over by avoiding a hit that cost a goal. That's shit pisses me off

 

[Antropovsky]

His ask for fair market value should be 9


He caused a turn over by avoiding a hit that cost a goal. That's shit pisses me off

His linemates have to win puck battles, need go chase down pucks, need to screen goalies and need to take pucks to the net and create shots from

Not Marner... He's so skilled he just needs to stand stationary, wait for his teammates to dig pucks loose for him and send passes from the perimeter of the ice. He can only score if he slips behind the D and gets a breakaway pass from his teammates.

He's going to struggle in the playoffs again and bring his line down. If he's a 11 million player, Knies was 13 last game.

 

[ACC1224]

His ask for fair market value should be 9


He caused a turn over by avoiding a hit that cost a goal. That's shit pisses me off

I’m sure with a little imagination we can find he was responsible for all goals against.

 

[Craig Button]

his usual self is the problem. his usual self isn't a winner. his usual self isn't worth what he is paid.

it's time he becomes better than his usual self.

then again, this is bitch marner we are talking about. he doesn't have a winning bone in his body.

 

[ACC1224]

Marner helped lead the Knights in winning the 2016 Memorial Cup. He won both the Stafford Smythe Memorial Trophy and the Ed Chynoweth Trophy as tournament MVP and leading scorer.[12]

Marner was the second player (after Brad Richards in 2000) ever to win a Memorial Cup, a Stafford Smythe Memorial Trophy, CHL Player of the Year, a league MVP trophy (Red Tilson Trophy) and a league playoff MVP trophy (Wayne Gretzky 99 Award) in the same season.[13]

Loser

 

[thusk]

We can debate stats all you want. End of the day what happens in those 60+ minutes in the playoffs determines how good or bad Marner was. Unfortunately Marner has had the same playoffs for the last 4 years. Very underwhelming for a guy making the money he’s making.

The game get more structured gets more physical and space becomes limited. He has yet to adapt and figure out to be productive like the regular season. We’ve all seen him be timid not willing to get into battles.

Nylander has been better than him in the playoffs. Out of the core 4 I’d go Nylander, Matthews, Tavares then Marner interms of overall performance.

Marner needs to be better end of story.

I’d rather see Marner get 80 points this year and have a focus on playing playoff hockey. Shorter shifts, smart plays less cute stuff and if you’re going to make cute plays they have to below the tops of the circles in the Ozone.

Marner allowed only 2 goal to kucherov line, easily 1 of 5 most dangerous line in NHL last postseason... nylander had been on the ice for 42 % (in last 2 season( that number raised at 48% last playoff) of every goal leafs allowed at EV vs 29 % for marner last 2( 22% last season) ... leafs allowed 2X number of goal when nylander was on the ice vs marner

Marner had been on the ice for 47% of every goal goal last 2( 52% last post-season)
Vs 33 % for nylander last 2( 36% last season.

So at end, leafs scored less and allowed more goal when nylander was on the ixe vs marner... thats exactly why keefe split matthews and nylander pretty quickly, together thwy was unable to move out of defensive zone, so leafs wasted his best offensive weapon when nylander wqs playing with.

Nylander finishef with 7 goal 17 points, marner 5 goal 22 points...

Marner had been easily better than Nylander last 2 post-season and its not even close. The only part of the game nylander outplayed marner is on pp, the only one but in every other aspect of the game, marner had been better by a miles. Yes he waa playing with a better player with matthews but matthews wqs muxh better when he wqs playing with Marner

 

[Arzak]

Marner allowed only 2 goal to kucherov line, easily 1 of 5 most dangerous line in NHL last postseason... nylander had been on the ice for 42 % (in last 2 season( that number raised at 48% last playoff) of every goal leafs allowed at EV vs 29 % for marner last 2( 22% last season) ... leafs allowed 2X number of goal when nylander was on the ice vs marner

Marner had been on the ice for 47% of every goal goal last 2( 52% last post-season)
Vs 33 % for nylander last 2( 36% last season.

So at end, leafs scored less and allowed more goal when nylander was on the ixe vs marner... thats exactly why keefe split matthews and nylander pretty quickly, together thwy was unable to move out of defensive zone, so leafs wasted his best offensive weapon when nylander wqs playing with.

Nylander finishef with 7 goal 17 points, marner 5 goal 22 points...

Marner had been easily better than Nylander last 2 post-season and its not even close. The only part of the game nylander outplayed marner is on pp, the only one but in every other aspect of the game, marner had been better by a miles. Yes he waa playing with a better player with matthews but matthews wqs muxh better when he wqs playing with Marner

My autocorrect hates you.

The best in the regular season and great in playoffs as was repeatedly "proven" here. We should sell high now.

 

[Jojalu]

Marner allowed only 2 goal to kucherov line, easily 1 of 5 most dangerous line in NHL last postseason... nylander had been on the ice for 42 % (in last 2 season( that number raised at 48% last playoff) of every goal leafs allowed at EV vs 29 % for marner last 2( 22% last season) ... leafs allowed 2X number of goal when nylander was on the ice vs marner

Marner had been on the ice for 47% of every goal goal last 2( 52% last post-season)
Vs 33 % for nylander last 2( 36% last season.

So at end, leafs scored less and allowed more goal when nylander was on the ixe vs marner... thats exactly why keefe split matthews and nylander pretty quickly, together thwy was unable to move out of defensive zone, so leafs wasted his best offensive weapon when nylander wqs playing with.

Nylander finishef with 7 goal 17 points, marner 5 goal 22 points...

Marner had been easily better than Nylander last 2 post-season and its not even close. The only part of the game nylander outplayed marner is on pp, the only one but in every other aspect of the game, marner had been better by a miles. Yes he waa playing with a better player with matthews but matthews wqs muxh better when he wqs playing with Marner

Nylander/Tavares' biggest issue is they are always even at best.

Regular season and playoffs.

Matthews and Marner tilt the ice in games 5-7 but have just been unable to convert.