Player Discussion Mitch Marner Part Infinity

[Da Mash]

Fans are always forcing players to waive.
Doesn't matter the name, if they have an agenda, "force X to waive."
Play him on pairing 3, he'll waive.
Take him off the PP, he'll waive.

Just follow the rules of the CBA and live with your decision.

Funny how they never blame the GM’s giving out full NMC’s in contracts.

Tre gave 88 and 34 the same iron clad full NMC ….go figure

 

[Hellcat]

Rich pelley is that you?

Maybe....

 

[Da Mash]

Tre caved to WIllie and gave him the $11.5m he demanded. He also overpaid Matthews, Kampf, Reaves and probably Woll. He is not Dubas bad, but he could use improvement.

You might as well add the terrible Domi contract. Signing a guy with bad knees and played one game?
He also traded a 1st for a 31 yr old 4th liner who can’t score or play defence. But like Reaves supposedly is a good leader

 

[Mess]

So Marner has a full NMC and it’s the leafs that decided to have Marner hit free agency?

Mediots and fans will stoop this low to justify the hate.

Marner had all the leverage as he did when fans proclaimed they could force Marner to waive.

While under contract until July 1st 2025 Mitch Marner controls if he can be TRADED.

However its Leafs management that determines IF he will getting a new contract offer and STAYING.

Mitch NMC is one directional only, it gives him no power or sway as to how much Leafs would offer, or IF they offer anything at all. Leafs GM has a bigger say in Marner's future than Mitch does.

Marner might have wanted to stay and remain a Leaf but that part is out of his control because the organization has decided to move on without him and change their DNA.

No Marner contract Offer = So it looks like Mitch's expiring NO MOVE means Marner will be moving on after-all.

 

[Hellcat]

Sam Bennett making $4.425 mil has as many goals 13 in this current season alone than Marner in 3 years X ELC + 6 years @ $10.9 mil. So over the course of 9 playoff season Magic Mitch has 13 measly goals total,

That doesn't even put Marner in the top 100 playoff goals scorers during those past 9 years combined.

Let that sink in,

If Bennett thought at the time when he signed his last contract that he would be this kind of player, do you really think he would have signed for $4.25m? At the time he clearly thought he was a $4.25m player, he's overperformed even his own expectations.

Also let it sink in that players are paid for regular season games, linking his regular season salary to his playoff performance is foolish. His salary has nothing to do with the playoffs, they are not paid for playoff games.

 

[Hellcat]

While under contract until July 1st 2025 Mitch Marner controls if he can be TRADED.

However its Leafs management that determines IF he will getting a new contract offer and STAYING.

Mitch NMC is one directional only, it gives him no power or sway as to how much Leafs would offer, or IF they offer anything at all. Leafs GM has a bigger say in Marner's future than Mitch does.

Marner might have wanted to stay and remain a Leaf but that part is out of his control because the organization has decided to move on without him and change their DNA.

No Marner contract Offer = So it looks like Mitch's expiring NO MOVE means Marner will be moving on after-all.

IMO best case scenario is Mitch does a 8 year sign and trade and we pick up some younger, cheaper top 6 type assets. This team is getting older by the minute and with talks of picking up players like Marchand, Ekblad and Bennett we are only getting older and outside of one player, we got shit in the prospect pool. This team is a couple of good moves away from winning the cup or a couple of bad moves from competing for the lottery in a couple of years.

 

[Da Mash]

While under contract until July 1st 2025 Mitch Marner controls if he can be TRADED.

However its Leafs management that determines IF he will getting a new contract offer and STAYING.

Mitch NMC is one directional only, it gives him no power or sway as to how much Leafs would offer, or IF they offer anything at all. Leafs GM has a bigger say in Marner's future than Mitch does.

Marner might have wanted to stay and remain a Leaf but that part is out of his control because the organization has decided to move on without him and change their DNA.

No Marner contract Offer = So it looks like Mitch's expiring NO MOVE means Marner will be moving on after-all.

Marner and his agent wanted to hit free agency to see the value and it looks like they will and have and it’s too expensive for the leafs and rightfully so.

Leafs had no say and had to sit on their hands and wait. They can proclaim we have moved on but it was Marners camp enforcing their right to use the NMC and made the Leafs wait.

He had all the leverage. it’s ok to admit that Marner priced himself out of here and some other team will pay Marners camp asking price.

Leafs gain cap space but get no compensation. Thats a failure on management and why full NMC’s in contracts are dangerous and shouldn’t be given out like candy.

 

[Confucius]

So Marner has a full NMC and it’s the leafs that decided to have Marner hit free agency?

Mediots and fans will stoop this low to justify the hate.

Marner had all the leverage as he did when fans proclaimed they could force Marner to waive.

It’s not had to understand how agents work. The know the value their client has here and it’s too expensive for the leafs. But now to make Marner look like a bad guy like the mediots did the same crap to Sundin, Kessel etc they come up with “ The leafs decided” to justify Marner leaving without compensation.

Ofcourse the Leafs let him go, they could have given him 14/15 if they wanted him to stay. If Mitch signs long term elsewhere for 12 or less I’d agree Mitch walked away. I think Tre would have offered 12, I wouldn’t but Leafs are Leafs.

 

[Da Mash]

btw

What does an extra yr on a contract really worth to these teams that are interested in signing Marner?

low draft pick? Will GM’s be dumb enough to offer a high prospect? or is that just wishful thinking?

 

[Nineteen67]

Because ? A opinion is just that. I at least I witnessed the last cup. I’ve seen a lot of stars come and go. Fans pick their favorites because they like their “growl” or supposed effort. When in fact we have no clue how some stars here “compete” level are.

But it seems every vet that comes here praises the stars “compete” level and their desire to win. Funny how fans know more the vet teammates.

We stuck by those past “stars” and they won nothing here. But we’re quick to trash our present stars because we blame their salaries etc when we gave two craps about the past salaries.

Blame cap management on management and not the players.

I’m all for change. But it’s a joy watching our elite players here just like I loved watching Salming and Sittler and Clark and Gilmour even tho they won nothing.

If we end up being the only team taking the mighty Panthers to 7 games ….does that make us the second best team?

Asking for a friend

I loved Gilmour, these so called stars are not even close to as entertaining as Gilmour was. It’s not due to work ethic or desire, they’re simply not talented enough to be alpha players.

 

[notbias]

Ofcourse the Leafs let him go, they could have given him 14/15 if they wanted him to stay. If Mitch signs long term elsewhere for 12 or less I’d agree Mitch walked away. I think Tre would have offered 12, I wouldn’t but Leafs are Leafs.

Sounds like they are trying to talk to him and Marner is not engaging in talks according to Freidman.

Tre apparently offered $13.5x8.

 

[Confucius]

Sounds like they are trying to talk to him and Marner is not engaging in talks according to Freidman.

Tre apparently offered $13.5x8.

If that is true, Mitch is doing us a favour.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Mitch looking for 13.5-14x4 years? Seee ya.

 

[Mess]

Marner and his agent wanted to hit free agency to see the value and it looks like they will and have and it’s too expensive for the leafs and rightfully so.

Leafs had no say and had to sit on their hands and wait. They can proclaim we have moved on but it was Marners camp enforcing their right to use the NMC and made the Leafs wait.

He had all the leverage. it’s ok to admit that Marner priced himself out of here and some other team will pay Marners camp asking price.

Leafs gain cap space but get no compensation. Thats a failure on management and why full NMC’s in contracts are dangerous and shouldn’t be given out like candy.

Treliving attempted to trade Marner in a 3-way deal that included Vegas and Colorado, which failed to complete.

Treliving then attempted to trade Marner to Carolina for Rantanen and even went to Marner to ask him to waive his NMC.

These are pretty good clues that Treliving wanted to move on from Marner, not to keep him. Had Leafs had their wish Marner would be long gone already.

Now its being leaked out by various reporters that Leafs have no interest in re-signing Marner and are prepared to move on. looking forward to change the teams DNA. They will add $10.9 mil back into their free cap space and allocate it to others.

Marner and his agent will be hitting free agency, with NO option to stay a Leaf, and can't use Leafs as leverage either on his next deal since there is no contract offer present to use in negotiations. The door is being closed on Marner as he departs, and Leafs have no interest in Marner's current asking price nor future contract price.

The easiest way to look at this is Marner has been fired for poor playoff performance and team struggles and will not be rehired. There is no fear on Management part that Marner's will be walking away for free, as that is what they have decided is Best for the Leafs moving forward.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Definitely not a downgrade.

Absolutely is a downgrade.

And it was worth a shot, even if the chances were slim.

The chances weren't slim. The chance was zero. It was a stupid panic move, and Treliving should have known that the only thing it was ever going to accomplish was alienating the player he actually wanted.

Team has the right to explore trade options as much as the player has the right to not waive.

Exploring actual trade options would have been a bad but better alternative to what we opted for instead. Team can do whatever they want, but if they do something stupid, don't be surprised when there's consequences.

Who cares if it created a circus for someone who was planning to leave anyway?

There is no evidence that he was planning to leave before then, and the season wasn't done. It created a circus for the team, right before the playoffs.

Show me the numbers that show Mitch Marner is an upgrade over Rantanen.

Which of the 50 different easily searchable times that I've done this would you like me to link to? Why would you suddenly accept the truth the 51st time? Marner produces better overall, against goalies, and in each individual game state, while taking on tougher matchups and situations. Marner is also simultaneously better defensively, and an elite PKer, while Rantanen doesn't PK at all. Rantanen thrives on empty net points, all-offense deployment/game state distribution, and the public's poor understanding of playoff production and the additional context necessary to compare across teams.

 

[Antropovsky]

So Marner has a full NMC and it’s the leafs that decided to have Marner hit free agency?

Mediots and fans will stoop this low to justify the hate.

Marner had all the leverage as he did when fans proclaimed they could force Marner to waive.

It’s not had to understand how agents work. The know the value their client has here and it’s too expensive for the leafs. But now to make Marner look like a bad guy like the mediots did the same crap to Sundin, Kessel etc they come up with “ The leafs decided” to justify Marner leaving without compensation.

Marner did the very same last contract.

In 2019, even though Matthews signed for 5 years. Marner wanted 3 years. It wasnt a 3 year bridge either. He wanted 3x11+ million. He was reportedly butt hurt Matthews got a short term deal and he easnt being offered it. Friedman reported this in 2019.

He wants 3 years once again this offseason. Dreger speculated on Overdrive that a Team said Marner would do a 3 year contract. He is of course determined for his terms to align with Matthews.

Leafs wont do it, because if they so.... there is NO way they win a cup by doing it.

Because.... in 3 years, 13.5 million Marner and 14.3 million Matthews will be up for new contracts AGAIN!!

Let me put this in perspective for you Panthers all signed for 8 years:
Tkatchuk 9.5 million until 32 years old 2029-2030
Reinhart 8.6 million until 36 years old 2031-2032
Barkov 10 million until 34 years old 2029-2030
Verhaeghe 7 million until 37 years old 2032-2033
35 million

Matthews and Marner current contracts
Matthews 15% of salary cap, 13.25 million until 30 years old
Marner 14.14% of salary cap, wants 3x13.5 million until hes 30 years old

Will both need new contracts in 2027-2028

Cap likely to be 123 million at the ends of their contracts. Say both get the same % on their deals.

12% of 123.5 million = 14.82 million
13% of 123.5 million = 16.055 million
14% of 123.5 million = 17.29 million
15% of 123.5 million = 18.525 million

So....

Matthews - 18.5 million - from age 30 to 38
Marner 17 million from age 30 to 38

2027 - 2028, 2028-2029, 2029-2030 will look like this:

Toronto Maple Leafs (2028, 2029, 2030)
Marner + Matthews = 35 million.

Florida Panthers (2028, 2029, 2030)
Tkatchuk 9.5 million
Reinhart 8.6 million
Barkov 10 million
Verhaeghe 7 million
35 million


Weve already been spanked by Florida twice.... do you think we stand any hope in hell to beat them when two of our guys make as much as four of their best guys?

Maybe we will win when Matthews and Marner are 33 years old and Barkov and Tkatchuk are up for new contracts!!!

 

[Mess]

IMO best case scenario is Mitch does a 8 year sign and trade and we pick up some younger, cheaper top 6 type assets. This team is getting older by the minute and with talks of picking up players like Marchand, Ekblad and Bennett we are only getting older and outside of one player, we got shit in the prospect pool. This team is a couple of good moves away from winning the cup or a couple of bad moves from competing for the lottery in a couple of years.

A sign and traded option currently isn't in play because Marner wants to test free agency come July 1st.

At that point the 8th year is no longer a possibility.

However where I can see the Leafs benefiting from Marner indirectly is in helping out another team looking to sign him but needed more cap space and to move a contract or 2.

Case in point say Vegas, where Leafs could suggest sending William Karlsson or Ivan Barbashev for cheap to dump contracts ..

"There have been rumours about trading players like William Karlsson, but one player in particular that the Toronto Maple Leafs should look to target is Ivan Barbashev."

etc.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

The chances weren't slim. The chance was zero. It was a stupid panic move, and Treliving should have known that the only thing it was ever going to accomplish was alienating the player he actually wanted.

Exploring actual trade options would have been a bad but better alternative to what we opted for instead. Team can do whatever they want, but if they do something stupid, don't be surprised when there's consequences.

It wasn't the first time they explored the idea of trading him. Maybe they found out that Marner didn't want to extend after July 1st, and then Marner's camp not willing to negotiate in-season sealed the deal of him walking. How is it the team's fault for trying to trade for someone who was willing to sign here?

And what consequences? Marner leaving? The plan was already in motion.

Absolutely is a downgrade.

Marner is also simultaneously better defensively, and an elite PKer, while Rantanen doesn't PK at all. Rantanen thrives on empty net points, all-offense deployment/game state distribution, and the public's poor understanding of playoff production and the additional context necessary to compare across teams.

When you're about to make 13M-14M, there shouldn't be any excuses for lack of production. Stuff like deployment, vezina goalies, better opponents, luck, or whatever BS shouldn't matter. You're getting paid to overcome all that and produce, which Marner has failed to do nearly every playoffs.

And he was amazing defensively when he did a no look backhand pass up the middle and then failed to cover his guy in a key moment in game 5. Certainly not the first time.

 

[ULF_55]

Funny how they never blame the GM’s giving out full NMC’s in contracts.

Tre gave 88 and 34 the same iron clad full NMC ….go figure

Last 2 GM's have done the same, so blame the players?

Interesting that 5 language Kreider moved.
I wonder what they offered him?
He's an east coaster all the way, and has 2 years remaining.
Waived to go to a high tax state.
I suppose, California might fit his wife's outlook / profession quite well.

I don't blame marner for not waiving, especially so late in the season.

I don't buy the "pregnant wife" excuse. Been through 3 births, and it's a day, and heck even when you're in a foreign country with no support, you get by quite well. If you can afford 6 nannies even easier. It isn't like Mitch was breastfeeding.

 

[ULF_55]

Me either but there is not much else on tv tonight so I thought I would torture myself by watching what good teams look like

I watched "The Way of Water", 3 hour mirror on "The Way of Humans."

 

[ToneDog]

If Bennett thought at the time when he signed his last contract that he would be this kind of player, do you really think he would have signed for $4.25m? At the time he clearly thought he was a $4.25m player, he's overperformed even his own expectations.

Also let it sink in that players are paid for regular season games, linking his regular season salary to his playoff performance is foolish. His salary has nothing to do with the playoffs, they are not paid for playoff games.

Winning the Conn Smythe is going to help him get more money. In some cases playoff performance influences how much a guy gets paid IMO. We saw it with Binnington, and Hill and will see it with Bouchard and Bennett.

Will be interesting to see if Marner's playoff performances affect his contract in a few weeks. Guessing Leafs were not impressed and decided to pass.

 

[ULF_55]

Winning the Conn Smythe is going to help him get more money. In some cases playoff performance influences how much a guy gets paid IMO. We saw it with Binnington, and Hill and will see it with Bouchard and Bennett.

Will be interesting to see if Marner's playoff performances affect his contract in a few weeks. Guessing Leafs were not impressed and decided to pass.

I think it might affect his contract, but if he's just after the money, it will be the highest ever.

If he goes to a dog that hasn't seen the playoffs for most of his career they won't care how he performs in the playoffs, just that he'll help them get there.

 

[DragoGrizzly]

If Bennett thought at the time when he signed his last contract that he would be this kind of player, do you really think he would have signed for $4.25m? At the time he clearly thought he was a $4.25m player, he's overperformed even his own expectations.

Also let it sink in that players are paid for regular season games, linking his regular season salary to his playoff performance is foolish. His salary has nothing to do with the playoffs, they are not paid for playoff games.

I get what you’re saying but I don’t think this is totally true. Bennett’s next contract is going to 100% be based on his playoff games. Otherwise he’d only make a 50 point player’s money. It’s curious that it doesn’t work the other way around (great season production and mediocre playoff production doesn’t seem to reduce player contract asks).

 

[Trapper]

Have a good laugh at this stat.

It’s funny if you cheer for any other team.
It’s beyond sad if you cheer for the Leafs.

 

[ToneDog]

I think it might affect his contract, but if he's just after the money, it will be the highest ever.

If he goes to a dog that hasn't seen the playoffs for most of his career they won't care how he performs in the playoffs, just that he'll help them get there.

View attachment 1050511

Yes, attractive player to have if you need to sell tickets and jerseys but he is never leading anybody to a SC unless he ties his cart to a McDavid, MacKinnon or Crosby type leader. Unfortunately Matthews has not been remotely close to being that guy.