Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Part 3758391849

[Confucius]

Selke finalists
Barkov 10 million
Reinhardt 8.6 million
Cirelli 6.1 million
there was plenty of talk throughout the year about selke Mitch, why didn’t he even become a finalist?

 

[Tak7]

Also equally plausible. It's the "going public" with it which is really alarming lol.

These things happen all the time in hockey, and usually when there's a leak, the GM neither confirms nor denies and is tight-lipped. Treliving was pretty transparent about it.

When you think about it, he also played it well from a PR perspective. Gives Tre some good cover if Marner does walk ("Well, I've been trying to sign him for over twelve months and he wouldn't engaged. I even tried to trade him for a strong asset, but that was blocked so many hands were tied.")

The whole thing was puzzling.

Not only did Treliving go public with it, in a very deliberate and calculated manner, but Marner didn't seem too pleased that it did get out ("I had a feeling something might get out?").

He followed that up 24 hours later with publicly coming out and defending Marner from a media circus that he deliberated created lol !?

Whatever way you look at it, one thing really appears certain - they weren't, at least at the deadline, particularly confident about getting a deal done.

 

[Kurtz]

Selke finalists
Barkov 10 million
Reinhardt 8.6 million
Cirelli 6.1 million
there was plenty of talk throughout the year about selke Mitch, why didn’t he even become a finalist?

It's really an award for centres. The only wings who have been nominated for it over the past decade were Marner and Stone. You have to go back a quarter century to find a wing who has actually won it (Lehtinen).

 

[Antropovsky]

lol, what's your read in terms of cause and effect / input versus output? if we accept the advanced stats as the output that validates his suboptimal play, what would you ascribe as causing it? Legit question.

Some hypotheses off the top of my head:

1) Plays a perimeter, east-west game which is not conducive to physical games with tight forechecking usually found in games 5-7, so he's easily neutralized.

2) Is mentally weak and lacks "clutch". Doesn't rise to the big occasions like some others (MacK, Crosby come to mind)

3) Is afraid to take the body. Similar to #1, but #1 is about tactical neutralization whereas #3 is about intangibles

4) Is a regressive player. Plays to the mean of the Core or overall team, which underperforms for reasons #1-3 as well.

5) "It's out of his hands". Marner simply played the role that coach had designed for him. Keep in mind that in previous Games 5-7, the vast majority were under the same coach who didn't have a system specifically geared for "playoff hockey". I watched part of the Devils series. They had key injuries and played bravely without JH, but also blew leads and turtled like the Leafs of yesteryear. Marner played noticeably better these past two games, but you could reasonably argue that something within #1-4 is true and that there's an apparent delta in his game between i) games 5-7 vs ii) non games 5-7.

No coach has told him to avoid physical areas or the crease. Keefe pushed hard to get the core to drive to the dirty areas, but it didn’t work. The infamous Thornton meeting is proof and he mentioned it often in interviews.

Berube has been trying all season to get the core to play more physically and go to those tough areas. He also separated compete and skating...or what was the two characteristics he said were musts?

He’s repeatedly said he wants the core to stop playing cute—he said this when Matthews was injured and he put Nylander, Tavares, and Marner together. Berube has also consistently pointed out that the Leafs are playing too east-west and not going to the net enough.

 

[ToneDog]

Selke finalists
Barkov 10 million
Reinhardt 8.6 million
Cirelli 6.1 million
there was plenty of talk throughout the year about selke Mitch, why didn’t he even become a finalist?

Marner has the most expected Selkes while the Marner PR crew have vivid imaginations.

 

[Confucius]

It's really an award for centres. The only wings who have been nominated for it over the past decade were Marner and Stone. You have to go back a quarter century to find a wing who has actually won it (Lehtinen).

I see thanks, I’ve read so many posts about his selke worthiness I thought he must be a lock.

 

[IPS]

Selke finalists
Barkov 10 million
Reinhardt 8.6 million
Cirelli 6.1 million
there was plenty of talk throughout the year about selke Mitch, why didn’t he even become a finalist?

Because the voters are novice viewer boxscore watchers.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

Completely agree with this. If the leafs do walk away from Marner, I’d want them to do nothing with the money this off season and save for McDavid.

You also touched on something I think is so important. People change over time and their desires and tolerances for environments change over time. My personal opinion of the situation is Marner likely wants to stay but to stay he has a number that would make it worth for him to deal with the vitriol.

It feels somewhat similar to the Dubas situation though I hate how Dubas went about it. It was scum movements. But to me it highlighted something fans don’t want to hear, playing / working for the leafs is amazing but it’s also a bitch and pain in the ass. The highs are like no other place in the NHL but the lows are really low. Dubas in his presser said something about talking to his family and wanting to take time off. To me that was code for my family hates the person I am in THIS job and I gotta check with them if they are okay with me continuing to work here and if they are, I gotta call all the shots because it’s not worth being the GM alone. I wonder if Marner finds himself in a similar situation where he might want to be here but either his inner circle is pushing him to leave or the only way he’s gonna be comfortable staying is if the leafs make it worth while financially. Either way not looking good.

Bolded is exactly this. Man, I'm sure some of us can relate to this in our personal lives, no?

A bit oversharing, but I worked for a huge tech company for 8 years, so roughly the same amount of time Marner has been a Leaf lol. It wasn't my first job, but my most formative job. It's "a prestigious company" and pays above market rate [I personally don't give a shit about the prestige, but definitely the money was good]. I had a mid-senior leadership position and was climbing the ladder quite well. The nature of the work in its purest form was fun.

On the flip side, work was 25% of the fun stuff, and 75% was just a toxic environment. Constant bickering, backstabbing, politics, etc, especially when we had bad quarters or things weren't going well within the department. There was a lot of finger-pointing, and I had to also weave the politics to protect both me and my team to survive. Given that it was 60 hours a week a huge chunk of my life, I noticed that it started changing me into this person that I disliked. My partner started calling me out on this, which only made me more irascible until several close friends and family hinted at the same. I went on a week long zen retreat away from everyone from work, and that's when I realized how much this was true.

Shortly after, with a baby along the way and us examing how hectic life was in London including my work, we decided to pack our bags to move to a Southern Mediterreanean country where we still have great jobs. It pays less than that BigTech job and most people don't know the names of the companies that we work for, but I'm in a much happier place both professionally and in my personal life. From a cost of living perspective too, we're as well off as we were before (London and Toronto are crazy expensive) thanks to a few tax breaks in this Mediterranean area and lower cost of living. We also have a different set of friends who are on the same wavelength as us, and feel zero pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" to feel content.

On the flipside, when I go on LinkedIn and see what some ex-colleagues are doing in terms of innovative work, there's of course a part of me that misses it. It's not the exact same parallel, but I can imagine it as the quandary of picking 1) being a star RW in the hockey capital fo the world versus 2) playing somewhere like Carolina or Pittsburgh.

 

[arso40]

Not even close to true.

How can you say that with a straight face?LOL

 

[ACC1224]

I think it's this.

And I also think Treliving knew that Marner wasn't going to waive mid-season. Not when Marner has all the leverage (he probably hasn't 100% decided to leave Toronto, but definitely wouldn't take a 'hometown discount' or else it would have already happened).

I think it was a good move by Treliving. You saw how emotionally affected Marner was. But it's Tre's way of saying, "look, we've been trying to engage with you on a contract, but you're not willing. We're not desperate to keep you at all costs. You're a huge part of this team this season and in the future, but we're willing to walk away from you and can imagine a post-Marner franchise that continues to make the Maple Leafs better."

We also don't know how much of this is Marner's positioning versus his agent. Marner could very well be saying to his agent, "I really want to stay a Leaf for the long-term, but I want to get the best return possible (as Marner should).". If that's the case, it favours him to walk all the way to UFA to maximize his leverage.

I have no doubt that part of that was a negotiation tactic by Treliving, seems quite obvious.

 

[ACC1224]

Down a goal? Give me Nylander.

Up a goal? Give me Marner.

Down a goal, they’re both on the ice.

 

[ACC1224]

Selke finalists
Barkov 10 million
Reinhardt 8.6 million
Cirelli 6.1 million
there was plenty of talk throughout the year about selke Mitch, why didn’t he even become a finalist?

Your narrow belief is there are only 3 good defensive players in the league?

 

[leafs in five]

NHL edge stats per categories for Nylander Vs Marner. Its pretty obvious why Nylander doesn't struggle like Marner does in creating playoff offense:

look how poorly Marner compares to Playoff players. If he didn't play alot he would literally be one of the least skilled players in the playoffs in the tracked categories (speed, shot speed etc):

Marner
View attachment 1028170

Nylander:
View attachment 1028169

Marner is quite significantly below league average in speed these playoffs. Jeez imagine how bad he will be in a couple years? He's 170 lbs and also amongst the slowest players in the playoffs.

View attachment 1028173


For comparison here is Mackinnon and Mcdavid:

View attachment 1028177

View attachment 1028176

I hoped you'd be busy today

 

[francis246]

Bolded is exactly this. Man, I'm sure some of us can relate to this in our personal lives, no?

A bit oversharing, but I worked for a huge tech company for 8 years, so roughly the same amount of time Marner has been a Leaf lol. It wasn't my first job, but my most formative job. It's "a prestigious company" and pays above market rate [I personally don't give a shit about the prestige, but definitely the money was good]. I had a mid-senior leadership position and was climbing the ladder quite well. The nature of the work in its purest form was fun.

On the flip side, work was 25% of the fun stuff, and 75% was just a toxic environment. Constant bickering, backstabbing, politics, etc, especially when we had bad quarters or things weren't going well within the department. There was a lot of finger-pointing, and I had to also weave the politics to protect both me and my team to survive. Given that it was 60 hours a week a huge chunk of my life, I noticed that it started changing me into this person that I disliked. My partner started calling me out on this, which only made me more irascible until several close friends and family hinted at the same. I went on a week long zen retreat away from everyone from work, and that's when I realized how much this was true.

Shortly after, with a baby along the way and us examing how hectic life was in London including my work, we decided to pack our bags to move to a Southern Mediterreanean country where we still have great jobs. It pays less than that BigTech job and most people don't know the names of the companies that we work for, but I'm in a much happier place both professionally and in my personal life. From a cost of living perspective too, we're as well off as we were before (London and Toronto are crazy expensive) thanks to a few tax breaks in this Mediterranean area and lower cost of living. We also have a different set of friends who are on the same wavelength as us, and feel zero pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" to feel content.

On the flipside, when I go on LinkedIn and see what some ex-colleagues are doing in terms of innovative work, there's of course a part of me that misses it. It's not the exact same parallel, but I can imagine it as the quandary of picking 1) being a star RW in the hockey capital fo the world versus 2) playing somewhere like Carolina or Pittsburgh.

Thanks for sharing! It’s sounds like you and your wife made a hard but crucial decision that was needed at the time and I’m glad things are better and I hope you are enjoying life!

I think you hit it on the head with where Marner is at. I think he truly is having a hard internal battle. If he does go to UFA I think many fans should be ready for the idea that he could sign for less than the reported number if the right situation came about. I don’t believe it’s all about being the highest paid winger for Marner (maybe it is for his agent and maybe it was at some point Marner’s goal while being a leaf,) but ultimately I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if he took 12.5 and signed in Pittsburgh to play along side Sid, or if Edmonton can magically move Nurse, if he takes 12.5 on a 2 year deal to go play with McDavid, or to go play in Nashville or Carolina. He might be more at peace there and willing to sacrifice some money to have to deal with less scrutiny.

Either way it’s unfortunate that we are in a position where we have to speculate whether or not he’s going to come back. I just wish things didn’t get so heated between him and the fans (his play has warranted it at times) but he’s a homegrown talent.

 

[leafs in five]

13mil player, 9 year vet, we're talking about positive signs, PK and throwing his body.

Does anyone speak about Kuch, Ovi, Crosby, Malkin, Pasta, McDavid, Drai, Mack like that? No you expect game breaking offence from those guys and they consistently deliver.

Rattanen once again playoff superstar par none.

I'll give Marner credit, normally his playoff performances make me want to throw up.

Kucherov was a tire fire in their game 5

 

[BraveCanadian]

If I want a leader who I name as a captain to impose a certain culture and DNA on my team, I'd slightly prefer Nylander over Marner.

I agree with you that if I need a goal that is where I’d take Nylander, but that is literally the only thing he does better individually.

However, your quoted part above intimating that Nylander is some kind of leader of men is hysterical. The guy avoids the boards like the plague, pulls the chute pretty often, is terrible defensively, and plays like he is disinterested like half the time.

 

[Lemontree]

That line is a mess and it has nothing to do with Marner. He has a center who is inexplicably taking 25 second shifts over and over again. He has a left winger who dumps the puck in about 95% of the time he has control of it in center ice (could somebody tell Knies that he can actually carry the puck into the zone). Marner looks frustrated and he should be.

He has a Center and a left winger who work their asses off forechecking and battling along the boards while Marner stands stationary at the blue line (middle of the ice) splitting the 2 dmen.

 

[arso40]

I agree with you that if I need a goal that is where I’d take Nylander, but that is literally the only thing he does better individually.

However, your quoted part above intimating that Nylander is some kind of leader of men is hysterical. The guy avoids the boards like the plague, pulls the chute pretty often, is terrible defensively, and plays like he is disinterested like half the time.

Funny you say that’s the only thing he does better Hes been the better play maker as well the only thing marner has had on him is defence if we’re being honest and it isn’t that drastic of a difference to warrant your stance nylander leads in primary points playing with holmberg

 

[IPS]

Kucherov was a tire fire in their game 5

Thankfully he's got a good resume to fall back on when he has his struggles eh

 

[arso40]

Hope marner can handle the forechecc that’s yet to come

 

[francis246]

Thankfully he's got a good resume to fall back on when he has his struggles eh

Kucherov’s game 5-7 stats over his career are similar to Marner’s I believe.

Kucherov has 1 goal in his last 3 playoffs, Marner’s got 5.

Prior to those three years Kucherov definitely a way better performer in games 1-4 than Marner.

 

[IPS]

Kucherov’s game 5-7 stats over his career are similar to Marner’s I believe.

Kucherov has 1 goal in his last 3 playoffs, Marner’s got 5.

Prior to those three years Kucherov definitely a way better performer in games 1-4 than Marner.

Are those recent years or years awhile back? Kuch has been doing his thing for awhile in the postseason.

 

[leafs in five]

View attachment 1028053

No questions btw.

We love expected goals don't we hfleafs

 

[leafs in five]

Thankfully he's got a good resume to fall back on when he has his struggles eh

You are thankful for that?

 

[francis246]

Are those recent years or years awhile back? Kuch has been doing his thing for awhile in the postseason.

Last 3 years, just checked his stats.

2022/23 - 6GP - 1G -5A
2023/24 - 5GP - 0G - 7A
2024/25 - 5GP - 0G - 4A

Prior to those three years as well I know his stats were good but his game 5-7 stats were not good at all. Similar production to Marner’s.