Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Part 3758391849

Exactly as expected, most people do not like the eye test because they either have to say someone isn't as bad as they thought or players often cited as the best are the same as the guy they don't like.



Bergeron, Stamkos, Tkachuk, Matthews.

The fun part of this exercise is that these are the closest forwards to each other in terms of P/G (50 games or more) but only two are are described as playoff duds, five of them would be described as the opposite. If we looked at numbers post-2000, a few other names show up in this group (.88 to .82). They include playoff duds like Brad Marchand, Henrik Zetterberg, Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Jarome Iginla, and Marty St. Louis.
Sorry, you're picking and choosing...as an example, Patrick Kane is 36 years old, and you chose to exclude his playoff numbers for his first 3 years of playoff runs with the Hawks.
 
I think an eye test would be super fun, so over the last eight years, here are eight players (GP-G-A-P-P/G).

Player A: 67-21-28-59-0.88
Player B: 57-11-39-50-0.88
Player C: 55-23-25-48-0.87
Player D: 65-17-39-56-0.86
Player E: 71-24-37-61-0.86
Player F: 79-35-31-66-0.84
Player G: 75-27-35-62-0.83
Player H: 66-19-35-54-0.82
Can you add the cap hits as well? Some of these players have left less to the rest of their team and should have higher expectations.
 
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1 - moving the posts again? Nobody mentioned either Matthews or Tavares.

2 - the scary part is that he produces as well even "taking shift/game off" (which both Matthews and Marner do too - JT may be the only one who doesn't), and playing with lesser players.

But this is a Marner thread, so let's stop making it about your favourite whipping boy.

He just made a stupid comparaison and i counter with a stupid comparaison... it's over
 
The leafs are losers in both situations IMO. The leafs are going to come out looking like fools either way. You’re going to have a section pissed off they let this guy with his talent walk for free, you going to have a section pissed off that you resigned him.

If they don’t go deep in the playoffs, he walks and they don’t do anything of significance in UFA. All hell will break lose, the triple whammy would be McDavid signing an extension on July 1st. I think at that point people would just lose their minds.

I don’t see a scenario where the leafs look good unless a) they win the cup, 2) Marner has a great playoffs and is resigned at a reasonable cap hit
Resigning marner by itself isnt the issue some will have it’s him hellbent on taking a significant raise on the raise he got out of elc that he shouldn’t have it’s him double dippin that’s gonna piss people off
 
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I fully expect McDavid to re-sign with the Oilers, hopefully he does it July 1 or soon after.

*** IMO, the absolute worst scenario the team could find themselves in is they go out in the 1st round but Marner continues to be their best player.
Marner cant continue being something he hasn’t been last year was not his year by a long shot
 
Getting 13m isn't taking the whole increase. It's taking his percentage of the increase.
For example, if the cap was increasing from 100m to 110m, a player signing for 15% would get 1.5m of that 10m increase, and the team benefits from the other 8.5m.

Marner was never overpaid, and he's not a "dud" in the playoffs by any measure, advanced or not. Even by just production, he's been the best on the team, and is one of the better playoff producers in the league. Not equalling the production of some of the highest playoff producers in NHL history for very obvious reasons that you choose to ignore does not make one a dud.

While the gap is not as big as it once was, Marner is still easily the better player. There's more to a player than goalscoring. Paying Marner 12m would be paying Marner less than Nylander. 13m, and even higher, is in no way ridiculous, and there is zero reason to believe that Marner is going to "fall off a cliff" anytime remotely soon. In fact, he's likely to last longer than most players, considering how he generates his impact. Nylander is probably the biggest worry in that regard, with how he relies on speed.
Your funny easily you say huh I don’t know about that one but I’d tend to agree with the people who played and got paid for their involvement In the nhl I’ve never once heard the word easily in regards to which one of those 2 is better than the other
 
Yes, I said that, and no you said in that response:


Notice you left out I was saying "away from MacKinnon overall" in your quote. Maybe its just the format but I like to be quoted accurately. Otherwise the impression folks would get is that I thought he was only worth 5 million. Thats all I was saying there.

How much do you think a 20 minute, 25 goal, 60 point player whos meh defensively, doesnt PK and has trouble scoring at even strength is worth? Thats what he has been outside of Mac. Some guys continue to thrive in new environments (Guentzel), some falter (Meier) and some find another gear (Bennett).

Nothing crazy about that take no? I even say hes not that and will pick it up and praise him otherwise and even purposely left out defensive numbers in my Mac comparisons as it makes him look even worse.
LOL at you whining about not quoting you accurately when I you know, quoted you. I didn't alter your words or anything, I quoted your exact words.
 
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Funny that the same people who want him gone are the ones who complain when our offence isn’t going. Mitch Marner is driving the bus for this team when it comes to offence.
He's a good driver in the regular season, if only he didn't keep driving the bus into the ditch in the playoffs.
Auston Matthews doesn’t score 69 without Mitch Marner. On top of that he leads our team in points almost every year and is the #1 option when on the PK or trying to preserve a lead. He’s (arguably) our best player since he joined the team.
Feel free to make that argument but IMO the notion that he's better than Matthews is so insane that it's not even worth discussing. Hart/Lindsay trophies, multiple Rocket trophies, nothing else needs to be said here.
And to let him walk… for what? Cap space? A crapshoot to sign someone else who may or may not be available? It’s actually an insane line of thinking.
If you let him walk it's mostly because the risk involved doesn't justify is asking price, same as letting any other player walk.
 
Based on what he had done prior to signing, Matthews earned the 5th biggest post-ELC contract. He got the 6th biggest. Marner earned the 6th biggest and got the 10th biggest. If anything, McDavid's contract was the unconventional one, with the 8 year term and big public discount.
Eichel had also signed for 8 years...Kucherov around that time as well. It's debatable whether McDavid should have signed that contract, but it still made him the highest paid player in the league at time, and deservedly so. Matthews' contract was the anomaly.
 
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LOL at you whining about not quoting you accurately when I you know, quoted you.

If people saw that post on its own, they would think I was talking about his overall play. That's all I was saying. Do you get it?

Might be a silly complaint from me I admit but I was actually hoping to avoid having to explain to someone what I meant and I still have to lol. Feel like you are doing this on purpose to drive me nuts.

If your point was to avoid the rest of what I said, mission accomplished heh.
 
I didn't reply because it was a silly question. What teams did they play? They played playoff teams that want to win a cup. LA Kings were a last place playoff team and won a cup. Various playoff teams is the answer, who exactly they were doesn't even matter.

Rantanen is an all around better playoff player. The production proves as much. The fact he was a key part of a Cup winner is additional proof.

The Marner lobby, and that's what it is, a lobby will isolate 3 stats that he is perceived better at and harp on it. The counter to this is simple.

He has not done anything to propell his team deep into the playoffs. Including many terrible game performances in games 5 6 7

It's only a silly question because after a 2nd reply you still are not able to quantify, like I did for Marner, why Rantnen is a better player. Casual fans, like you, get lost in the offence and think because a player can score more than another player he is automatically a better player. What you dismissed and TNH not surprised you did, is that the combined number of points and goal suppression by Marner far outpaces Rantenen's scoring prowess and his goal suppression, it's looking more and more now that he is not playing with MacKinnon, he is not as good at generating offence as some might think. Also keep in mind Marner is a better player all around player with far worse zone starts.

Playoff success is a team game, one player wont win it for you and one player wont lose it for you. Time our fan base matures a bit.
 
Depending on how this bunch plays in these playoffs you have two choices. Walk away from Marner and potentially JT or try to resign. If you are going for the later you bring Marner, Knies, AM and JT into the office and you say to them what you should have said last time before JT signed. We have the opportunity to build around this core but only if everyone takes a little less. This means that AM is willing to sign for 14 when his contract is up. We have had to play cap gymnastics for the past 6 years because of bad management and our players being selfish. Time to change the culture.

JT 4x6million
Marner 8x12.5
Knies 8x8

Trade
Kampf
Jarnkrok

Hope that within the next two or three years some of the kids like Cowan and some of the D prospects can move to fill in the spots of our aging D Corp. furthermore we can neither sign or develop some third and forth liners.

I really like Rielly but he is a second pairing D man and makes ton of money. It seem Carlo is the tonic needed to quiet his game. Move McCabe into the first pairing and hope one of those giant sized D we have on the left side in the minors can be a top pairing guy.
 
What we are seeing is peak Marner, some people still comparing him to players who had 140 plus point seasons, or players that have had multiple 50 plus goal seasons, that’s just wrong.. Especially since Mitch will only have 3 or 4 more peak seasons left.
Why not compare him to players who have had similar peak seasons, JTMiller, Peterson, Kyle Connor,, Jason Robertson and many more that have scored 25 goals and have had 90 plus points seasons.
 
Exactly as expected, most people do not like the eye test because they either have to say someone isn't as bad as they thought or players often cited as the best are the same as the guy they don't like.



Bergeron, Stamkos, Tkachuk, Matthews.

The fun part of this exercise is that these are the closest forwards to each other in terms of P/G (50 games or more) but only two are are described as playoff duds, five of them would be described as the opposite. If we looked at numbers post-2000, a few other names show up in this group (.88 to .82). They include playoff duds like Brad Marchand, Henrik Zetterberg, Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Jarome Iginla, and Marty St. Louis.
Not sure how this is proof of me not liking the eye test. His goal scoring numbers are the worst of that sample and stick out like a sore thumb, which I called out. I literally used the numbers you provided.
 
What we are seeing is peak Marner, some people still comparing him to players who had 140 plus point seasons, or players that have had multiple 50 plus goal seasons, that’s just wrong.. Especially since Mitch will only have 3 or 4 more peak seasons left.
Why not compare him to players who have had similar peak seasons, JTMiller, Peterson, Kyle Connor,, Jason Robertson and many more that have scored 25 goals and have had 90 plus points seasons.
Well, you see, it's not convenient to the narrative that he should be paid $13 to $14 million...$14 mil per is literally Draisaitl money, lol
 
Resigning marner by itself isnt the issue some will have it’s him hellbent on taking a significant raise on the raise he got out of elc that he shouldn’t have it’s him double dippin that’s gonna piss people off

Crazy, how can someone who hasn’t negotiated at all this season be hell bent on a significant raise?
 
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What we are seeing is peak Marner, some people still comparing him to players who had 140 plus point seasons, or players that have had multiple 50 plus goal seasons, that’s just wrong.. Especially since Mitch will only have 3 or 4 more peak seasons left.
Why not compare him to players who have had similar peak seasons, JTMiller, Peterson, Kyle Connor,, Jason Robertson and many more that have scored 25 goals and have had 90 plus points seasons.

Yes you need to be rational about this thing. These guys are itching to pay a player big bucks and I can't even understand why.

Imagine arguing for a player to get paid more when the outcome of this is that the team you love actually has less odds of winning by overpaying.
 
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