Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Zybalto]

Essentially, I think Dubas should either trade for someone like Vas or draft someone like Vas bc at the end of the day, goaltending will always be the No.1 reason why Leafs either make it or break it.

Or it could just be that Leafs players, esp AM and Marner, for some unknown reason(like breaking the mirror) just keep making the opposing goalie looks unbeatable.

Price made a fool of a few players last playoffs. Just ask:

Mark Stone: 11th in points this year, 0 points in 6 games against Price.
Max Pacioretty: 24th in points this year, 3 points in 6 games against Price.
Nikoli Ehlers: 46 points in 47 games this year, 1 point in 4 games against Price.
Blake Wheeler: 46 points in 50 games this year, 0 points in 4 games against Price.

Could throw a few more names out but you get the picture. Price was just in the zone, which is good news for Team Canada. He looked done earlier in the year but hes still a gamer.

 

[Zybalto]

That's not the full story though - I'm pretty sure you're leaving special teams out of this equation but I'm talking about goals scored, period. Look at how many goals the M&M line scored the last two playoffs and look at how many goals the Bergeron line scored against us in those two playoffs. Do that and I think you'll see a much different story then 7-6.

That's the problem with stats, there are a million of them and if can choose only the ones you like, you can find support for almost any agenda.

I talked special teams right after those stats. Not trying to be agenda driven here.

 

[Gabriel426]

Price made a fool of a few players last playoffs. Just ask:

Mark Stone: 11th in points this year, 0 points in 6 games against Price.
Max Pacioretty: 24th in points this year, 3 points in 6 games against Price.
Nikoli Ehlers: 46 points in 47 games this year, 1 point in 4 games against Price.
Blake Wheeler: 46 points in 50 games this year, 0 points in 4 games against Price.

Could throw a few more names out but you get the picture. Price was just in the zone, which is good news for Team Canada. He looked done earlier in the year but hes still a gamer.

Schef was not playing for three of those games.
As much as I love Mark Stone, he ain’t AM.
And Max is not even close to Marner.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I talked special teams right after those stats. Not trying to be agenda driven here.

Ok fair enough, I did see that. I just saw the 7-6 and thought wait a minute, if you include the special teams then that number is much different.

 

[Racer88]

Schef was not playing for three of those games.
As much as I love Mark Stone, he ain’t AM.
And Max is not even close to Marner.

Add in the fact that Willy and Spezza had no problem beating Price, why couldn’t Matthews and Marner?

 

[Sypher04]

Add in the fact that Willy and Spezza had no problem beating Price, why couldn’t Matthews and Marner?

I do think Matthews and particularly Marner could have been a lot better vs Montreal, but we definitely should not act as if the degree of coverage they faced was comparable to what Nylander and Spezza received. That said, it still is perplexing given that the Matthews line heavily outchanced and outplayed the Danault line. Price was the primary difference maker. It’s almost as if his game raised to match vs our best and he for lack of a better way of putting it, was maybe more relaxed vs our depth. Idk. It’s hard to find an answer

 

[studebaker17]

Add in the fact that Willy and Spezza had no problem beating Price, why couldn’t Matthews and Marner?

Price is a pretty hard goalie to score on with a straight up shot and no traffic , even for Mathews. If he can see it , he'll stop it 99% of the time . The Mathews / Marner combo need to learn this and score more dirty goals imo . Nylander , Spezza , ect scored all their goals that way . That said Price absolutely robbed Marner when crashing the net at least once and Marner did crash the net multiple times but held the puck to long.

 

[Gabriel426]

I do think Matthews and particularly Marner could have been a lot better vs Montreal, but we definitely should not act as if the degree of coverage they faced was comparable to what Nylander and Spezza received. That said, it still is perplexing given that the Matthews line heavily outchanced and outplayed the Danault line. Price was the primary difference maker. It’s almost as if his game raised to match vs our best and he for lack of a better way of putting it, was maybe more relaxed vs our depth. Idk. It’s hard to find an answer

I highly doubt that’s the case. I don’t think Price goes, need to bring my A game when AM is on but when he sees Willie or Spezza, I can relax now bc it is okay for them to score on me.
If AM and MM got Wiilie and Spezza stats and vice versa, I doubt anyone will be defending Willie like they are with AM and Marner.

 

[Curt]

Add in the fact that Willy and Spezza had no problem beating Price, why couldn’t Matthews and Marner?

Because Willy and spezza actually care. It’s that simple

Also helps a lot when your not on the ice with marner when he’s trying to play hero puck the whole series

 

[Sypher04]

I highly doubt that’s the case. I don’t think Price goes, need to bring my A game when AM is on but when he sees Willie or Spezza, I can relax now bc it is okay for them to score on me.
If AM and MM got Wiilie and Spezza stats and vice versa, I doubt anyone will be defending Willie like they are with AM and Marner.

I’m not saying I think Price didn’t try, but I could see an ultra competitor like him playing up to his competition is all I was saying. Either way, I very clearly said the two have to be better so not really about defending anyone, just trying to rationalize how the Matthews line had so many chances (admittedly mostly in the first 4-5 games) yet couldn’t beat price as others did, because I simply do not buy that they don’t care

 

[IPS]

So all it takes is hot goalies and cheap shutdown centermen like Danault to make Matthews and Marner completely ineffective but it's definitely worth it to pay them a combined $22.5M?

 

[IPS]

Add in the fact that Willy and Spezza had no problem beating Price, why couldn’t Matthews and Marner?

Here's the scary part: some of those goals that Spezza and Nylander scored on Price weren't all that good either, dare I say there was a couple weakish ones. Personally - I don't think Price was the godlike unbeatable wall that some people are trying to make him out to be. He was great, don't get me wrong, but this hindsight people are using is hilarious. When we were up 3-1 in that series, how much of a sentiment did you see going around that "oh god Price could so easily stonewall us the next 3 games with how good he's playing!" What we did see was the team come out with some of the most embarrassing and horrific starts to games in games 5-7 and basically hand the Habs a free 2-0 or 3-0 lead.

These excuses for Marner and Matthews need to end - they choked badly, plain and simple and the series loss falls primarily on them (with some secondary blame going onto the coaching staff and some hilarious defensive gaffs from Sandin and Dermott).

 

[supermann_98]

Some Marner talk on TSN

Why Marner and not other NHL stars?

For some reason I get no sound on the TSN page, commercials yes, but not the overdrive guys talking.

Anyone with Coles notes?

 

[ACC1224]

For some reason I get no sound on the TSN page, commercials yes, but not the overdrive guys talking.

Anyone with Coles notes?

Sorry, I had the same issue...weird.

 

[supermann_98]

Sorry, I had the same issue...weird.

Ahh ok then, typical of the crappy TSN page

 

[A1LeafNation]

For some reason I get no sound on the TSN page, commercials yes, but not the overdrive guys talking.

Anyone with Coles notes?

Basically why not McDavid or MacKinnon when he shits the bed against Vegas..in terms of getting shit on.

Basically Marner is from here and should know better and didn't know better. It was always Dubas upping and Marner camp said more more more and they were already in the middle of training camp.

It started with Strudwick unprovoked saying it's no Marner contract.

 

[Gabriel426]

I’m not saying I think Price didn’t try, but I could see an ultra competitor like him playing up to his competition is all I was saying. Either way, I very clearly said the two have to be better so not really about defending anyone, just trying to rationalize how the Matthews line had so many chances (admittedly mostly in the first 4-5 games) yet couldn’t beat price as others did, because I simply do not buy that they don’t care

I don't buy that they dont care excuse too.

 

[Gabriel426]

Basically why not McDavid or MacKinnon when he shits the bed against Vegas..in terms of getting shit on.

Basically Marner is from here and should know better and didn't know better. It was always Dubas upping and Marner camp said more more more and they were already in the middle of training camp.

It started with Strudwick unprovoked saying it's no Marner contract.

I could not hear the Overdrive part too.

Funny thing is, they are the ones who brings Marner into the conversation.

 

[diceman934]

1233 minutes
1240 minutes.
Everyone should understand how just what happens when you over play a player one of these guys is McDavid the other is Marner.

Same results in the Playoffs for both. You can not over play a player and expect them to carry a team in the playoffs when they are gassed. Add in 173 minutes in the playoffs for a total average of 24:71 minutes a game and you should now all understand how badly he was coached.

 

[HarryLime]

1233 minutes
1240 minutes.
Everyone should understand how just what happens when you over play a player one of these guys is McDavid the other is Marner.

Same results in the Playoffs for both. You can not over play a player and expect them to carry a team in the playoffs when they are gassed. Add in 173 minutes in the playoffs for a total average of 24:71 minutes a game and you should now all understand how badly he was coached.

more excuses

 

[Gary Nylund]

1233 minutes
1240 minutes.
Everyone should understand how just what happens when you over play a player one of these guys is McDavid the other is Marner.

Same results in the Playoffs for both. You can not over play a player and expect them to carry a team in the playoffs when they are gassed. Add in 173 minutes in the playoffs for a total average of 24:71 minutes a game and you should now all understand how badly he was coached.

OK I know you're a huge fan of Rielly and Marner, and never have a bad word to say about either one so on the subject of those two, I have to take your opinions with a grain of salt. Having said that, you obviously understand the game very well and I have a lot of respect for your opinions in general. I checked out what you're saying and you're about the ice time, the discrepancy is bigger than I imagined. Perhaps Matthews could even handle that kind of load being such a big guy but Marner played even more than he did, he's obviously a much smaller guy so now I'm thinking you might be on to something. I sure hope you're right because if you are then the solution is easy, less ice time for our stars bringing them in line with the stars for other top teams and problem solved.

I was shocked to see how much ice time the top Oilers got. McDavid and Draisaitl both over 30 minutes a game, I've never even heard of forwards playing that much. And Nurse played over 38 minutes per game, LOL WTF.

Maybe I'm just trying hard to look for a reason to believe but in any case, I'm going to choose to believe that you know what you're talking about, hopefully either Keefe figures out (or someone else does and he's told to smarten up) and next spring will be a different story, we'll see.

more excuses

Have a look at how much ice time M&M were given in the playoffs, then have a look at the elite forwards for the other top teams. There's a huge discrepancy there. Is it for sure the reason M&M underachieved? Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. But it's not nothing, that's for damn sure.

Anyhow, I've heard all the excuses for Marner and out of everything I've heard, this ice time issue is the only one that makes me think there might be something to it. JMHO.

 

[ACC1224]

1233 minutes
1240 minutes.
Everyone should understand how just what happens when you over play a player one of these guys is McDavid the other is Marner.

Same results in the Playoffs for both. You can not over play a player and expect them to carry a team in the playoffs when they are gassed. Add in 173 minutes in the playoffs for a total average of 24:71 minutes a game and you should now all understand how badly he was coached.

Yep was always obvious Marner was overplayed. He looked gassed out there

 

[freshwind]

not into the micro stats like many here but from my old man's eye test one thing that seems to stick out to me is the length of marner's shifts ... he extends them more than any other player on the team ... or at least it appears that way to me... no idea how to check that, and i kind of don't care ... just always seems to me to be out there too long and contributes to him looking gassed at times

 

[Maximus74]

Yep was always obvious Marner was overpayed. He looked gassed out there

Typo..

 

[ToneDog]

OK I know you're a huge fan of Rielly and Marner, and never have a bad word to say about either one so on the subject of those two, I have to take your opinions with a grain of salt. Having said that, you obviously understand the game very well and I have a lot of respect for your opinions in general. I checked out what you're saying and you're about the ice time, the discrepancy is bigger than I imagined. Perhaps Matthews could even handle that kind of load being such a big guy but Marner played even more than he did, he's obviously a much smaller guy so now I'm thinking you might be on to something. I sure hope you're right because if you are then the solution is easy, less ice time for our stars bringing them in line with the stars for other top teams and problem solved.

I was shocked to see how much ice time the top Oilers got. McDavid and Draisaitl both over 30 minutes a game, I've never even heard of forwards playing that much. And Nurse played over 38 minutes per game, LOL WTF.

Maybe I'm just trying hard to look for a reason to believe but in any case, I'm going to choose to believe that you know what you're talking about, hopefully either Keefe figures out (or someone else does and he's told to smarten up) and next spring will be a different story, we'll see.



Have a look at how much ice time M&M were given in the playoffs, then have a look at the elite forwards for the other top teams. There's a huge discrepancy there. Is it for sure the reason M&M underachieved? Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. But it's not nothing, that's for damn sure.

Anyhow, I've heard all the excuses for Marner and out of everything I've heard, this ice time issue is the only one that makes me think there might be something to it. JMHO.

Nobody plays 38 minutes in a 60 minute game. Are you including OT ?? Even so, hard to believe that he averaged 38 minutes per game.