Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[ULF_55]

He's his own man. Good some nights and bad on others. As Marner goes, so go the Leafs.

He is one of 3 drivers on the team, and IMO Matthews isn't on that list.

 

[DarkKnight]

I'm just glad I don't have to recoil every time Marner does something positive because I've backed myself into a corner on a key player on my team. November is all we have for now, I look forward to watching my team and especially talent perform.

 

[ponder]

Imagine hating on the player who leads the team in points. The same player who leads the team in playoff points since he came into the league. The same player who has been trusted time and time again by multiple NHL coaches to play on the PK. The same player who gained Selke nominations as a winger. The same player who has the most impact on the team when he's not playing (Leafs lose more when he's not playing compared to the other core players). No wonder other fan bases call Leaf fans delusional. Before the haters respond.. the above FACTS are not up for debate for they are indeed FACTS.

Agreed. He’s become a scapegoat for our lack of playoff success, but that doesn’t mean the hate is logical. Fans are angry and want to put their frustrations somewhere, and they’ve landed on Marner.

He’s small/skinny, has the odd cringy statements in interviews, negotiates hard for salary, and doesn’t have many playoff goals, so he’s become an easy target for hate, but none of that is the same as being a weak player. He’s one of the absolute best wingers in the league, crazy shifty with the puck, amazing playmaker, great defensively, and is IMO overall the 2nd best player on the Leafs (behind Matthews, above Willy, though all 3 are elite and reasonably close to one another). He has a huge positive impact on winning.

 

[Mess]

Regular season Mitch is NOT equal to playoff Mitch. The results don't lie and they are there for everyone to see with a simple google search of playoff results.

If you lose your last game in the playoffs nobody cares what happened in the regular season.

Marner fans always boast about regular season Mitch, and then make excuses for playoff Mitch annually.. Rinse and repeat.

Hopefully our new coach Berube when the going gets tough, can change the Marner impact on the Leafs end results in a positive way, and no longer watching his disappearing act.

That said, I will applaud and acknowledge Marner stepping up now contributing some key goals in the absence of Matthews, helping Leafs win some recent games.

 

[arso40]

Agreed. He’s become a scapegoat for our lack of playoff success, but that doesn’t mean the hate is logical. Fans are angry and want to put their frustrations somewhere, and they’ve landed on Marner.

He’s small/skinny, has the odd cringy statements in interviews, negotiates hard for salary, and doesn’t have many playoff goals, so he’s become an easy target for hate, but none of that is the same as being a weak player. He’s one of the absolute best wingers in the league, and IMO the 2nd best player on the Leafs (behind Matthews, above Willy, though all 3 are elite and reasonably close to one another). He’s has a huge positive impact on winning.

I’d definitely argue that point but it’s a fair point atleast would be easier to see with them spread across 3 lines

 

[ACC1224]

Regular season Mitch is NOT equal to playoff Mitch. The results don't lie and they are there for everyone to see with a simple google search of playoff results.

If you lose your last game in the playoffs nobody cares what happens in the regular season.

Marner fans always boast about regular season Mitch, and then make excuses for playoff Mitch annually.. Rinse and repeat.

Hopefully our new coach Berube when the going gets tough, can change the Marner impact on the Leafs end results in a positive way, and no longer watching his disappearing act.

That said, I will applaud and acknowledge Marner stepping up now contributing some key goals in the absence of Matthews, helping Leafs win some recent games.

Odd that you had posted all those regular season projections if you find the regular season meaningless.
What was the point of them then?

 

[WTFMAN99]

It's two-fold with both Marner and JT right now, I had some of my friends like "RE-SIGN HIM AND JT NOW" and others are more along the lines of, let's wait until the playoffs are done.


I think that is where I stand on this, like 90% of the time, I find myself just wanting to see playoffs. I would be open to extending Marner on something reasonable, probably right around the Nylander contract, maybe artificially lower it if he's a good soldier and would defer some $$. The key sticking point to me as I watch this team without Matthews...you need them separated, they drive their own bus, it's a great problem to have.

 

[REALTALK81]

Regular season Mitch is NOT equal to playoff Mitch. The results don't lie and they are there for everyone to see with a simple google season of playoff results.

If you lose your last game in the playoffs nobody cares what happens in the regular season.

Marner fans always boast about regular season Mitch, and then make excuses for playoff Mitch annually.. Rinse and repeat.

Hopefully our new coach Berube when the going gets tough, can change the Marner impact on the Leafs end results in a positive way, and no longer watching his disappearing act.

That said, I will applaud and acknowledge Marner stepping up now contributing some key goals in the absence of Matthews, helping Leafs win some recent games.

He literally leads the team in playoff points. I hear things like "look at the games 5, 6, 7" but never about him contributing enough to get them to even be playing games 5, 6, 7 in the first place. Take him away and the opposition will just key in on another player. Not to mention the defensive side of his game.

 

[DarkKnight]

He literally leads the team in playoff points. I hear things like "look at the games 5, 6, 7" but never about him contributing enough to get them to even be playing games 5, 6, 7 in the first place. Take him away and the opposition will just key in on another player. Not to mention the defensive side of his game.

To be fair, his playoff production does mask some serious failings in the big games that matter. He does tighten up and shy away during crucial times, that's is reasonable comment and again the points sort of gloss over what happens at critical times. Now, having said that, Matthews has been equally disappointing in that regard, he makes the biggest bucks, he's big, and yet he doesn't enjoy the scorn from the ankle biters? It's that kind of disconnect that suggests irrational and disproportionate hatred.

Marner needs to be better, so do a lot of guys on this team. You need other guys to step up, guys with the shitty matchups and favourable zone starts. Dubas signed that contract, it's a shame he wasn't a better GM, because if he didn't cave like a cheap suit with Marner, perhaps he wouldn't be the lightning rod.

For me, I start every year with a new optimism. I've seen a million athletes breakthrough in sport, after years of defeat. You hope it clicks, for Mitch and Matthews, etc, and if I see things in their game I like, it provides some optimism. Cheering for failure says more about the commentator and I suspect it has translated into their "lives". Every day is opportunity, that's why we follow our teams, at least that's what I do. I am also an Eagles fans, and look how that finally turned out.

 

[francis246]

Who has the 5 on 5 point ?

At the time I posted that. It was only Tavares.

Nylander now also has a 5 on 5 point with his goal.

 

[ACC1224]

Nice goal last night, would have been nice if he showed up for the previous 59 minutes.

Maybe you only watched the last minute?

 

[francis246]

Agreed. He’s become a scapegoat for our lack of playoff success, but that doesn’t mean the hate is logical. Fans are angry and want to put their frustrations somewhere, and they’ve landed on Marner.

He’s small/skinny, has the odd cringy statements in interviews, negotiates hard for salary, and doesn’t have many playoff goals, so he’s become an easy target for hate, but none of that is the same as being a weak player. He’s one of the absolute best wingers in the league, and IMO the 2nd best player on the Leafs (behind Matthews, above Willy, though all 3 are elite and reasonably close to one another). He’s has a huge positive impact on winning.

I was listening to a podcast and they explained it perfectly. Mitch personifies everything people hate about this team. No one wants to see this team having fun if we arent winning playoff teams. No one wants to see dancing, or being the life of the party if we aren’t getting playoff wins.

I understand that, but that’s also his personality. The two shouldn’t even be conflated but it constantly is. It’s not right.

 

[ITM]

Regular season Mitch is NOT equal to playoff Mitch. The results don't lie and they are there for everyone to see with a simple google search of playoff results.

If you lose your last game in the playoffs nobody cares what happened in the regular season.

Marner fans always boast about regular season Mitch, and then make excuses for playoff Mitch annually.. Rinse and repeat.

Hopefully our new coach Berube when the going gets tough, can change the Marner impact on the Leafs end results in a positive way, and no longer watching his disappearing act.

That said, I will applaud and acknowledge Marner stepping up now contributing some key goals in the absence of Matthews, helping Leafs win some recent games.

Way too generalized and inaccurate. As a Leafs fan, I've been on either side of the coin, and repeated one vital distinction: Marner plays better hockey while with a more demanding coach (i.e. Hunter, Babcock, Berube). And the prediction (call it hope) of those with long memories (Call them "Marner fans" if that helps) was that under Berube, Marner would find his game again.

That's not an observation that excuses Marner's inconsistencies. It's an explanation that takes into account Marner's peaks and valleys as a hockey player. Perhaps its a fault of his own, perhaps its consistent with having the kind of pressure that got him to the heights he's accomplished throughout his life. And without it, like anyone who might be psychologically fatigued, he takes the path of least resistance when he can.

I don't think it's a coincidence that with Keefe gone and Berube in, Marner is returning to form. Or maybe it's the contract year, or both. Either way, it's a boon for us Leafs fans and "Marner fans" alike.

 

[REALTALK81]

To be fair, his playoff production does mask some serious failings in the big games that matter. He does tighten up and shy away during crucial times, that's is reasonable comment and again the points sort of gloss over what happens at critical times. Now, having said that, Matthews has been equally disappointing in that regard, he makes the biggest bucks, he's big, and yet he doesn't enjoy the scorn from the ankle biters? It's that kind of disconnect that suggests irrational and disproportionate hatred.

Marner needs to be better, so do a lot of guys on this team. You need other guys to step up, guys with the shitty matchups and favourable zone starts. Dubas signed that contract, it's a shame he wasn't a better GM, because if he didn't cave like a cheap suit with Marner, perhaps he wouldn't be the lightning rod.

For me, I start every year with a new optimism. I've seen a million athletes breakthrough in sport, after years of defeat. You hope it clicks, for Mitch and Matthews, etc, and if I see things in their game I like, it provides some optimism. Cheering for failure says more about the commentator and I suspect it has translated into their "lives". Every day is opportunity, that's why we follow our teams, at least that's what I do. I am also an Eagles fans, and look how that finally turned out.

In the playoffs, every shift is a big moment. He showed up games 3, 4, 5 last year when Nylander was out the first 3 and when Matthews was out for 5 and 6. He also played well the year prior against Tampa Bay. Helping them to win their first series in the Matthews era.

 

[Antropovsky]

Yup, it wasn’t to long ago at the start of the year, Antroprovsky claimed that it was Marner’s fault that the PP has struggled. That he doesn’t score enough PP goals. Now Marner won’t stop scoring on the PP.

Then it was Marner doesn’t score enough goals from in right, now Marner has scored a couple right in front of the net.

Now it’s he doesn’t score 5 v 5. Look no one is saying Marner is the perfect player but he’s been damn good and we should celebrate when a Leaf is playing good. Antrorprovsky will find a reason no matter what after every game to try and diminish Marner’s contributions. I don’t know if he’s trolling, or if Marner while in London bullied the guy or dumped his sister. But is just insane the mental gymnastics he’ll do nightly to try and get people to join his anti Marner cult.

I don’t defend Marner because I’m just a Marner fan and not a leafs fan. I defend Marner because I do think he is unfairly blamed for the teams lack of success. He’s a f***ing leaf and I want the leafs to be a good team. He ain’t going anywhere so i want him to be good now and in the playoffs so we can witness success. Same goes for all the other leafs.

Marner a few years ago went 100 games without a PP goal. 100 games! On a pp with Nylander, Matthews, Tavares and Reilly...100 games! Absolutely incredible! Even Wayne Gretzky joked about it.

The Leafs have Tavares, Matthews and Nylander who are all incredible goal scorers. Believe me they do not need Marner to have a successful PP. Yes, I believe they would be more dangerous with a shooting threat.

A few seasons ago, Marner fans were saying Marner elevated Matthews 5v5 production. We finally got a good sample size of Matthews without Marner last couple years and the opposite is in fact true. Matthews is much more productive without Marner on his line. But presented with the stats, Marner fans just change their arguments... now their arguments are " ugh all that matters is point production!"Microstats" are worthless!"

 

[francis246]

Marner a few years ago went 100 games without a PP goal. 100 games! On a pp with Nylander, Matthews, Tavares and Reilly...100 games! Absolutely incredible! Even Wayne Gretzky joked about it.

The Leafs have Tavares, Matthews and Nylander who are all incredible goal scorers. Believe me they do not need Marner to have a successful PP. Yes, I believe they would be more dangerous with a shooting threat.

A few seasons ago, Marner fans were saying Marner elevated Matthews 5v5 production. We finally got a good sample size of Matthews without Marner last couple years and the opposite is in fact true. Matthews is much more productive without Marner on his line. But presented with the stats, Marner fans just change their arguments... now their arguments are " ugh all that matters is point production!"Microstats" are worthless!"

I don’t care what happened a few years ago. I care about today. We can’t go back and change that. Why am I still worrying about something that happened over 2 seasons ago when that’s not a relevant problem right now.

The only person changing positions is you. When Marner’s play disproves what you have to complain about you try and find the next thing. Have you noticed that even the people who don’t love Marner have started to see how irrational you’ve been in this thread and have been calling it out. You nitpick every little thing. Like I said, I want to know what he did to you for you to feel the need that you have to pick apart every aspect of his game. Part of me also feels like you just get a rise out of being a bit of a troll in this thread. So I think I’m gonna fully disengage from this point forward because it’s not worth it. I’m gonna enjoy the season and be in the moment. That’s how I want to be a fan, you’re welcome to be miserable after every game. I personally don’t want to be. So I’ll leave you to it to be.

 

[ACC1224]

I don’t care what happened a few years ago. I care about today. We can’t go back and change that. Why am I still worrying about something that happened over 2 seasons ago when that’s not a relevant problem right now.

The only person changing positions is you. When Marner’s play disproves what you have to complain about you try and find the next thing. Have you noticed that even the people who don’t love Marner have started to see how irrational you’ve been in this thread and have been calling it out. You nitpick every little thing. Like I said, I want to know what he did to you for you to feel the need that you have to pick apart every aspect of his game. Part of me also feels like you just get a rise out of being a bit of a troll in this thread. So I think I’m gonna fully disengage from this point forward because it’s not worth it. I’m gonna enjoy the season and be in the moment. That’s how I want to be a fan, you’re welcome to be miserable after every game. I personally don’t want to be. So I’ll leave you to it to be.

 

[thusk]

Marner a few years ago went 100 games without a PP goal. 100 games! On a pp with Nylander, Matthews, Tavares and Reilly...100 games! Absolutely incredible! Even Wayne Gretzky joked about it.

The Leafs have Tavares, Matthews and Nylander who are all incredible goal scorers. Believe me they do not need Marner to have a successful PP. Yes, I believe they would be more dangerous with a shooting threat.

A few seasons ago, Marner fans were saying Marner elevated Matthews 5v5 production. We finally got a good sample size of Matthews without Marner last couple years and the opposite is in fact true. Matthews is much more productive without Marner on his line. But presented with the stats, Marner fans just change their arguments... now their arguments are " ugh all that matters is point production!"Microstats" are worthless!"

Since Matthews and marner playing together, they are both top 5 player in the entire NHL at 5v5. focusing on 82 game unstead of like 350, for sure the microstats is the 350 game and mot the 82 smallest sample. You're only taking thing going in your side all the time...

PP goal was an issue couple of years ago so became a reason to bash Marner... Pp was not good in first 13 game, was marner fault. Now its not at all an issue at all, so you need to find something else and complaining about his 5v5 game.

If he good good game on both pp and 5v5, you're gonna start to talk about playoff... You will always find an excuse to complain about him whatever how he's playing.

When you know you're wrong, you're just ignoring message because you don't know at all what to respond ( like probably what you're gonna do with this one).

 

[Antropovsky]

I don’t care what happened a few years ago. I care about today. We can’t go back and change that. Why am I still worrying about something that happened over 2 seasons ago when that’s not a relevant problem right now.

The only person changing positions is you. When Marner’s play disproves what you have to complain about you try and find the next thing. Have you noticed that even the people who don’t love Marner have started to see how irrational you’ve been in this thread and have been calling it out. You nitpick every little thing. Like I said, I want to know what he did to you for you to feel the need that you have to pick apart every aspect of his game. Part of me also feels like you just get a rise out of being a bit of a troll in this thread. So I think I’m gonna fully disengage from this point forward because it’s not worth it. I’m gonna enjoy the season and be in the moment. That’s how I want to be a fan, you’re welcome to be miserable after every game. I personally don’t want to be. So I’ll leave you to it to be.

Its very evident you dont care. This is the SEASON. I care about his last 8 PLAYOFFS where hes been mostly dreadful. You Marner fans acknowledge he hasnt been good in the playoffs but try to point the same finger at Tavares, Matthews and Nylander. Nylander has made 55% less than Marner the last 5 years and scored more, Tavares had significantly less Ozone starts compared to Marner last year and still produced the same, Matthews has been anchoresd down by Marners poor 5v5 play, much like the stats show he has been in the season (see chart below that marner fans conveniently dont want to discuss). The stats also show that Marner gets significantly further from the net and his slot shots dry up in the playoffs vs season. While Mathews stay the same or improves. However, as you can see in the graph below... if Marners play gets further from the net and the slot than Matthews 5v5 will further decrease at the hands of Marner. Of course this isnt even taking into account all the misplays Marners done that directly led to critical gwgs against and also his heartless plays like pulling the chute all the time and refusing to enter scrums to support his teammates. All these add up to a very big problem, especially when hes playing 20 mins a night and paid 13% of the cap... and as a result we have no better options.

Since Matthews and marner playing together, they are both top 5 player in the entire NHL at 5v5. focusing on 82 game unstead of like 350, for sure the microstats is the 350 game and mot the 82 smallest sample. You're only taking thing going in your side all the time...

PP goal was an issue couple of years ago so became a reason to bash Marner... Pp was not good in first 13 game, was marner fault. Now its not at all an issue at all, so you need to find something else and complaining about his 5v5 game.

If he good good game on both pp and 5v5, you're gonna start to talk about playoff... You will always find an excuse to complain about him whatever how he's playing.

When you know you're wrong, you're just ignoring message because you don't know at all what to respond ( like probably what you're gonna do with this one).

Lol ... I focused on the last two full seasons, in which Marner and Matthews played approx 50% with and without eachother. You couldnt ask for a better sample.

 

[IPS]

He showed up games 3, 4, 5 last year when Nylander was out the first 3

He did?

 

[Antropovsky]

He is one of 3 drivers on the team, and IMO Matthews isn't on that list.

Yikes. How can you think that when this team can barely score 5v5 without him?

Scoring 5v5 goals the hardest thing to do in the NHL and Matthews has been the best at it in the entire NHL since his rookie season.

...while also being one of the leagues top defensive players.

Im shocked.

 

[arso40]

Way too generalized and inaccurate. As a Leafs fan, I've been on either side of the coin, and repeated one vital distinction: Marner plays better hockey while with a more demanding coach (i.e. Hunter, Babcock, Berube). And the prediction (call it hope) of those with long memories (Call them "Marner fans" if that helps) was that under Berube, Marner would find his game again.

That's not an observation that excuses Marner's inconsistencies. It's an explanation that takes into account Marner's peaks and valleys as a hockey player. Perhaps its a fault of his own, perhaps its consistent with having the kind of pressure that got him to the heights he's accomplished throughout his life. And without it, like anyone who might be psychologically fatigued, he takes the path of least resistance when he can.

I don't think it's a coincidence that with Keefe gone and Berube in, Marner is returning to form. Or maybe it's the contract year, or both. Either way, it's a boon for us Leafs fans and "Marner fans" alike.

Bro the only difference is he’s being more physical that’s literally it he still makes the cute plays he’s still getting his points there’s only one difference credit the coach and him for that difference but there’s nothing else different about him on the ice

 

[notDatsyuk]

Imagine hating on the player who leads the team in points. The same player who leads the team in playoff points since he came into the league. The same player who has been trusted time and time again by multiple NHL coaches to play on the PK. The same player who gained Selke nominations as a winger. The same player who has the most impact on the team when he's not playing (Leafs lose more when he's not playing compared to the other core players). No wonder other fan bases call Leaf fans delusional. Before the haters respond.. the above FACTS are not up for debate for they are indeed FACTS.

Name-calling and ad hominem attacks aren't the best way to start a conversation.

Yes, facts, even without context, are facts.

Yes, he has more playoff points. In about 15% more ES ice time and 30% more PP ice time than Nylander he has a few more ES points and actually fewer PP points.

Yes, he plays on the PK, but there are stats that show he's not great at it. Yes, he got Selke votes - a few years ago and not very many.

The Leafs have an identical winning % when Nylander is out as when Marner is out.

I don't hate him, but I'm certainly not impressed by specious arguments. He's a very good player, but let's not pretend he's a lot more than what he is.

 

[AvroArrow]

He is one of 3 drivers on the team, and IMO Matthews isn't on that list.

Lmao, Leafs nation is like no other

We went from wanting to lynch Marner and Matthews is the 2nd best in the world, to this

 

[Tak7]

He is one of 3 drivers on the team, and IMO Matthews isn't on that list.

Matthews isn't a driver of the team?

Clarify?