Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[Gary Nylund]

Is he?

Isn't he?

When Matthews gets his mojo going again, I agree that he’s our best player. But overall for this season, I honestly think it has been Marner. Don’t get me wrong; Willy has been pretty close and has certainly been “the man” on a lot of nights.

I get why people might say Marner but Tanev would be my pick. He's been incredible, I had no idea how good he was.

Dmen are underrated in general and the guys cap hit is only 4.5m as well. Imagine if instead of signing Marner for 13m, we somehow added 3 more Dmen as good as Tanev. Instead of being a top 10 regular season and 1st round playoff fodder we'd be cup favorites.

 

[Antropovsky]

It has nothing to do with salaries, it has everything to do with nitpicking goals. It seems pointless. Who cares? Why does it matter to you so much how he scores goals? I’ve never seen anyone care that much how goals go in. I get if it’s empty net vs regular goals. But if he’s scoring regular goals who cares? Whether it comes from the point or in tight, who gives a shit? As long as it’s going in.

You’re saying that driving play to score the goals matters and I’m saying lots of players do not drive play but end up scoring goals in a variety of ways. Hyper fixating on Marner’s goals and trying to diminish every point he gets does come across hater-ish IMO.

There is a reason Keefe and Berube won't play Marner on his "own" line...but they did and do with Matthews, Nylander and Tavares.

 

[Racer88]

Media personalities rage baiting to get clicks say some of the things you say. Everybody actually in the NHL values Marner a ton.

He said he always wanted to be a Leaf because he always wanted to be a Leaf. I'm not sure what you think those two things have to do with each other.

What one media guy "thinks he heard" isn't a fact, and whatever Ferris was negotiating with teams, it doesn't mean Marner would have signed it. He got two offer sheets, and didn't sign them.

So “everybody” in the NHL values him a ton……..like literally everyone? You know everyone in the NHL and they have told you that.

 

[francis246]

There is a reason Keefe and Berube won't play Marner on his "own" line...but they did and do with Matthews, Nylander and Tavares.

Lol what’s the reason?

 

[BTP]

Complete player is a nebulous term so whatever. You said he's the best, and he's not.

He is the best. And the most complete. Whos been better this year? Auston Matthews? LOL

I dont understand what game you guys are watching.

 

[leafs in five]

There is a reason Keefe and Berube won't play Marner on his "own" line...but they did and do with Matthews, Nylander and Tavares.

Because there are 3 forwards on a line?

 

[William Johnson]

Just to chime in on this topic again as it's been a sore spot for me for a long time. There's been a lot of talk here recently and for years (mostly from the same people) about offer sheets and 'facts'. The only fact is that Ferris and Marner claimed they received offer sheets.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The only fact is that Ferris and Marner claimed they received offer sheets.

More accurately, there were multiple reports about offer sheet discussions for Marner (a player who would draw offer sheet interest) in an offseason where offer sheets happened, and then both Marner and his agent noted after the negotiation that he received specifically two offer sheets, and confirmed that the offer sheeting team had notified the GM of the offer sheet themselves, and none of this has ever been disputed by anybody.

 

[William Johnson]

More accurately, there were multiple reports about offer sheet discussions for Marner (a player who would draw offer sheet interest) in an offseason where offer sheets happened, and then both Marner and his agent noted after the negotiation that he received specifically two offer sheets, and confirmed that the offer sheeting team had notified the GM of the offer sheet themselves, and none of this has ever been disputed by anybody.

Or independently confirmed, either.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He is the best. And the most complete. Whos been better this year? Auston Matthews? LOL

I dont understand what game you guys are watching.

Scroll up a couple of posts and you'll see I already said Tanev would be my pick. I'll say Marner's been the best forward if that makes you happy but who cares anyway? As far as I'm concerned, the real season starts in April, and if Marner once again produces at a ~40 point pace when it matters most, that would once again show just how meaningless it is to talk about who's "best" in February. Haven't the last few years been enough to drill home this simple reality?

 

[IPS]

Just to chime in on this topic again as it's been a sore spot for me for a long time. There's been a lot of talk here recently and for years (mostly from the same people) about offer sheets and 'facts'. The only fact is that Ferris and Marner claimed they received offer sheets.

"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions." — Leonardo da Vinci

 

[ToneDog]

Scroll up a couple of posts and you'll see I already said Tanev would be my pick. I'll say Marner's been the best forward if that makes you happy but who cares anyway? As far as I'm concerned, the real season starts in April, and if Marner once again produces at a ~40 point pace when it matters most, that would once again show just how meaningless it is to talk about who's "best" in February. Haven't the last few years been enough to drill home this simple reality?

Problem I have with Marner is that he is a singles hitter who can't hit his weight in October but wants to be paid like a top power hitter.

 

[Mess]

More accurately, there were multiple reports about offer sheet discussions for Marner (a player who would draw offer sheet interest) in an offseason where offer sheets happened, and then both Marner and his agent noted after the negotiation that he received specifically two offer sheets, and confirmed that the offer sheeting team had notified the GM of the offer sheet themselves, and none of this has ever been disputed by anybody.

I'll offer you $1 CDN dollar for your Car. Now you have received a valid offer sheet to purchase your vehicle. Unless you agree and/or sign the transfer papers my offer means absolutely NOTHING, just like Marner's so called pretend unsigned offersheets.

This is how Marner manipulated a naive greenhorn GM into thinking he had received valid offers when he never signed one to validate it, and the amount of that offer was unknown and meaningless as a result.

As an Restricted FA Leafs had the opportunity to match any valid Offersheet signed to retain the player's rights, yet Clueless Dubas bid against himself to give Mitch Marner a contract higher than > 4 X 1st round draft pick compensation would have returned. Unlike Sebastion Aho who signed a restricted-free-agent offer sheet with the Canadiens for five years and $42 million ($8.4 mil AAV), which the Hurricanes quickly matched, instead of taking the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick compensation for not matching,

What if Marrner had received that very same offersheet as Aho as their first 3 year ELC stats were similar and therefore comparable?

By matching a valid offersheet Carolina got Aho signed 5 years $42.0 mil @ $8.4 mil AAV.

A Clueless Dubas outbid any pretend offersheet and signed Marner for 6 years $65.41 mil @ $10.9 mil AAV.

The Leafs organization got screwed by paying +$2.5 mil more AAV per season WITHOUT a valid offersheet.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Or independently confirmed, either.

No reason to investigate. The information was straight from the source, shared independently across teams, and universally accepted. If you want to think Marner is a liar based on nothing, that's your choice I guess.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'll offer you $1 CDN dollar for your Car. Now you have received a valid offer sheet to purchase your vehicle. Unless you agree and/or sign the transfer papers my offer means absolutely NOTHING, just like Marner's so called pretend unsigned offersheets. This is how Marner manipulated a naive greenhorn GM into thinking he had received valid offers when he never signed one to validate it, and the amount of that offer was unknown and meaningless as a result.

The offer wasn't unknown or meaningless. An offer sheet is a contract that only requires acceptance from the other side to be final. There's nothing pretend about it. A better analogy would be multiple people offering me market value or above in immediate cash for my car, and then you being surprised when I don't want to sell it to you for below market value.

As an Restricted FA Leafs had the opportunity to match any valid Offersheet signed to retain the player's rights, yet Clueless Dubas bid against himself to give Mitch Marner a contract higher than > 4 X 1st round draft pick compensation would have returned.

It was a contract consistent with post-ELC history, and better than contracts that could have been forced on us below the four 1st threshold (eg. 10.55m x 5).

The Leafs organization got screwed by paying +$2.5 mil more AAV per season

We didn't get screwed. We paid more money for a better player with more term. That's how it's supposed to work.

 

[William Johnson]

No reason to investigate. The information was straight from the source, shared independently across teams, and universally accepted. If you want to think Marner is a liar based on nothing, that's your choice I guess.

This 'information' is far from universally accepted, then or now. I'm pointing out the difference between fact and faith. If there is no first-hand source outside of the Marner camp who can confirm these offer sheets happened at all (much less who offered them and what the offers were), then it should not be considered a fact. If people want to take Darrin Ferris at his word, that's their choice.

Here's another fact -- if it HAD been independently verified, we would have heard about it long ago from a reputable, named professional.

 

[keonsbitterness]

the Leafs organization got screwed by paying +$2.5 mil more AAV per season WITHOUT a valid offersheet.

$1.5m more. The original report that Dubas could have signed Marner for $8.5m in summer 2018 was later corrected to $9.5m.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This 'information' is far from universally accepted, then or now.

It's universally accepted by everybody except a couple people on the internet 6 years later.

If there is no first-hand source outside of the Marner camp who can confirm these offer sheets happened at all (much less who offered them and what the offers were), then it should not be considered a fact.

The offer sheeting team independently told the Leafs.

If people want to take Darrin Ferris at his word, that's their choice.

I'm taking Marner at his word, not Ferris. I have no reason to believe he set up some big conspiracy involving multiple people to lie about this.

Here's another fact -- if it HAD been independently verified, we would have heard about it long ago from a reputable, named professional.

Not necessarily. Likely only if it contradicted existing information.

 

[REALTALK81]

If you are a fan of the team, this feat should be appreciated.. fastest in Leaf HISTORY to reach 500 assists and 3rd fastest player to reach 500 assists in the NHL in the past 20 years. Behind only McDavid and Crosby.

 

[ToneDog]

I'll offer you $1 CDN dollar for your Car. Now you have received a valid offer sheet to purchase your vehicle. Unless you agree and/or sign the transfer papers my offer means absolutely NOTHING, just like Marner's so called pretend unsigned offersheets.

This is how Marner manipulated a naive greenhorn GM into thinking he had received valid offers when he never signed one to validate it, and the amount of that offer was unknown and meaningless as a result.

As an Restricted FA Leafs had the opportunity to match any valid Offersheet signed to retain the player's rights, yet Clueless Dubas bid against himself to give Mitch Marner a contract higher than > 4 X 1st round draft pick compensation would have returned. Unlike Sebastion Aho who signed a restricted-free-agent offer sheet with the Canadiens for five years and $42 million ($8.4 mil AAV), which the Hurricanes quickly matched, instead of taking the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick compensation for not matching,

What if Marrner had received that very same offersheet as Aho as their first 3 year ELC stats were similar and therefore comparable?

View attachment 974481

By matching a valid offersheet Carolina got Aho signed 5 years $42.0 mil @ $8.4 mil AAV.

A Clueless Dubas outbid any pretend offersheet and signed Marner for 6 years $65.41 mil @ $10.9 mil AAV.

The Leafs organization got screwed by paying +$2.5 mil more AAV per season WITHOUT a valid offersheet.

And the Leafs and some so called fans want to see him screw them over again after 5 subsequent poor playoff performances and one series win.

 

[francis246]

This 'information' is far from universally accepted, then or now. I'm pointing out the difference between fact and faith. If there is no first-hand source outside of the Marner camp who can confirm these offer sheets happened at all (much less who offered them and what the offers were), then it should not be considered a fact. If people want to take Darrin Ferris at his word, that's their choice.

Here's another fact -- if it HAD been independently verified, we would have heard about it long ago from a reputable, named professional.

I mean TSN ran the story. I’m not sure they are running that without verifying the truth about it. Many other outlets ran the story. So it’s likely true that he got two offer sheets. Maybe the AAV numbers of those offer sheets are fabricated or enhanced for public perception or leverage in negotiations but I doubt they are lying about receiving offer sheets.

Didn’t Dreger and frideman both speak to the offer sheets as well? I swear someone quoted frideman yesterday speaking on the offer sheets

 

[Stephen]

This 'information' is far from universally accepted, then or now. I'm pointing out the difference between fact and faith. If there is no first-hand source outside of the Marner camp who can confirm these offer sheets happened at all (much less who offered them and what the offers were), then it should not be considered a fact. If people want to take Darrin Ferris at his word, that's their choice.

Here's another fact -- if it HAD been independently verified, we would have heard about it long ago from a reputable, named professional.

The way I see it, the existence of one offer sheet, two offer sheets, high bid, low bid doesn't matter...

What's important is that in the face of options, Marner wanted to be a Maple Leaf but still negotiated hard vs the only team he wanted to play for and the final cap number had zero team friendly consideration built in. You can say he got it all. Max money, hometown, team, lifestyle, etc.

But you can't account for public opinion, and the trade off for getting it all in that contract is his popularity never recovered and he's become a massive polarizing figure. If you can shut out the noise it's not a bad deal, but it is what it is.