Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[Gabriel426]

Correct. I’m equating it to a team acquiring a Kawhi. So I’m equating that to being the best player in a trade because haven’t really seen a move like that in the NHL. I mean how else would you acquire a “Kawhi” type. A Kawhi is rarely even available. So if we are talking about NHL context that is usually the best player acquired in a deal that would put a player over. Is there even a Kawhi like move that has happened in the NHL?

Like I said in a post earlier, I don’t think there ever was a Kawhi trade and probably ever will be one in any sports. That’s why Kawhi trade was truly a Unicorn. As Kawhi was clutch in playoffs, won championships and Finals MVP and trade while in his prime.

 

[francis246]

Like I said in a post earlier, I don’t think there ever was a Kawhi trade and probably ever will be one in any sports. That’s why Kawhi trade was truly a Unicorn. As Kawhi was clutch in playoffs, won championships and Finals MVP and trade while in his prime.

Completely agree. Like I said if we are simply talking about playoff performance I don’t disagree you can make parallels between DeRozan and Marner.

But if you’re talking about trying to acquire a player that would put you over the top, Marner imo would be viewed in the same category as top players in the NHL that were traded.

 

[francis246]

Tell me you know nothing about basketball, without telling me you know nothing about basketball.

That Raptors team is arguably a top 5 greatest defensive team of all time, no exaggeration. Quite possibly the deepest team in the NBA since Nowitizki/Kidd Mavericks won the title. Kawhi, Lowry, Green, Ibaka, Gasol are all elite defenders. Then you had Siakam, Vanvleet and Powell coming off the bench.

Kawhi was a playoff stud and the best 2 way player in the league of course, but that entire team was elite. Had Kawahi stayed, no doubt in my mind that group wins at least 1 more title.


As for Marner, this year is his last prove it year. The way he's playing though, I expect his game to translate well in the playoffs. Why ? Because he's being physical, forechecking hard and finishing checks, getting into scrums and he's not being a shy perimeter player like he did in years past. It's not how many points, it's how he's getting them. He's been our MVP by FAR this year.

If he doesn't show up in the playoffs again, then yes it's over.

They would have repeated 100% the following year in the bubble. Their defensive scheme was the best in the league. We also had the best bench in the NBA. Our second unit compared to the rest of the league was too much to handle. Not only were they great defensively they could score in half court sets and face break as well. That raptors team from top to bottom was just so well constructed. Kawahi was just the extra push they needed because he could guard more positions compared to DeRozan. Giving us ultimate line up flexibility.

 

[Gabriel426]

Completely agree. Like I said if we are simply talking about playoff performance I don’t disagree you can make parallels between DeRozan and Marner.

But if you’re talking about trying to acquire a player that would put you over the top, Marner imo would be viewed in the same category as top players in the NHL that were traded.

No doubt about it as I doubt the returning player from a MM trade is going to be a better player than MM. Now if it is future and somehow that future becomes the next Makar or McD….thats a completely different story. Lol

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is there even a Kawhi like move that has happened in the NHL?

I don't think so. Top offensive and defensive player in the league that's considered a strong playoff performer with a significant injury concern and 1 year left on his contract moved for a lesser player under longer team control. Pretty rare situation. I can't think of any that match.

And it's funny that it keeps being brought up, because while we ended up winning a championship, if the ball bounced slightly differently off the rim, it probably goes down as one of the worst deals in Raptors history, and we would have just faded into irrelevance with nothing to show for it.

 

[ToneDog]

As I asked Gary! What the hell was Kadri, Kessel and Tkachuk viewed as before? It’s easy to pick the biggest outlier in sports and say, Marner isn’t going to be that.

You do realize how dumb of an assumption that is. You’re assuming Marner is getting traded for a better player. If Marner is the BEST player in the deal than what? If Marner is getting traded it’s likely for futures. Rarely do those 1 for 1 deals happen and if they do, depending on what happens you might be able to get a better player for Marner, but we saw with Rantanen, even Colorado didn’t get a better player, they got worse and gave up the superior player. A Marner deal would look more like a Rantanen deal compared to Tkachuk.

Until he does it, he's not Kawhi in a trade. He is Derozan.

 

[ToneDog]

Tell me you know nothing about basketball, without telling me you know nothing about basketball.

That Raptors team is arguably a top 5 greatest defensive team of all time, no exaggeration. Quite possibly the deepest team in the NBA since Nowitizki/Kidd Mavericks won the title. Kawhi, Lowry, Green, Ibaka, Gasol are all elite defenders. Then you had Siakam, Vanvleet and Powell coming off the bench.

Kawhi was a playoff stud and the best 2 way player in the league of course, but that entire team was elite. Had Kawahi stayed, no doubt in my mind that group wins at least 1 more title.


As for Marner, this year is his last prove it year. The way he's playing though, I expect his game to translate well in the playoffs. Why ? Because he's being physical, forechecking hard and finishing checks, getting into scrums and he's not being a shy perimeter player like he did in years past. It's not how many points, it's how he's getting them. He's been our MVP by FAR this year.

If he doesn't show up in the playoffs again, then yes it's over.

Without Kawai, they lose to Philadephia. Raps were good but could not get over the hump. Enter Kawhi.

Marner is not Kawhi until he wins something before any trade. Until then he is the Derozan in a "Kawhi trade". Derozan was good, he just was not Kawhi good.

 

[ToneDog]

Just say MM will be the best player in any trades instead of saying he is Kawhi.
In fact, I don’t think anyone can be another Kawhi in any trades since he was traded mainly bc of health issues as he played like 9 games or so the season before he was dealt.

You are right but in the AVs/Canes trade, I would say Ranta is the Kawhi and Necas is the Derozan.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This thread is hilarious. To some small degree, I kind of hope Marner does walk for nothing so people get to enter the find out phase where they realize you can’t cobble together a team any more cheaply through free agency by picking over the scraps.

Would be interesting to see how quickly the pack turns on Auston and Willy when it is finally their turn to shoulder the blame too.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I went back and read and surprise
, surprise you jumped into my convo with someone else.

We originally started talking about acquiring our Kawahi. Which is why my context has been through trades and acquiring. You jumped in talking about Marner simply is Kawahi.

This isn't "your convo", it's a discussion forum.

Anyhow, you seem to agree that Marner's more like Derozan than Kawhi so that's fine. As far as hypothetical trades go, I see no point in discussing that. The NBA is different from the NHL and it's so hard to come up with a compareable. Since you find it interesting though, the best I can come up with off the top of my head is if Marner were traded to PIT for Crosby, and Crosby announced that he was going to play that one last season for Toronto and then retire.

In this scenario, Crosby would obviously be Kawhi, and Marner would be Derozan.

Until he does it, he's not Kawhi in a trade. He is Derozan.

100% this.

You are right but in the AVs/Canes trade, I would say Ranta is the Kawhi and Necas is the Derozan.

Agree 100%.

This thread is hilarious. To some small degree, I kind of hope Marner does walk for nothing so people get to enter the find out phase where they realize you can’t cobble together a team any more cheaply through free agency by picking over the scraps.

Would be interesting to see how quickly the pack turns on Auston and Willy when it is finally their turn to shoulder the blame too.

Auston and Willy get plenty of blame, have you been hiding under a rock? Auston deserves it too.

 

[ToneDog]

This thread is hilarious. To some small degree, I kind of hope Marner does walk for nothing so people get to enter the find out phase where they realize you can’t cobble together a team any more cheaply through free agency by picking over the scraps.

Would be interesting to see how quickly the pack turns on Auston and Willy when it is finally their turn to shoulder the blame too.

I hope he does go UFA so we can see what his true market value is. Too bad Leafs do not have the stomach or balls to allow it and would rather overpay him after doing so 6 years ago and watching him melt in April.

 

[NMacrules]

First, Marner cannot be traded without waiving his NMC. Its not like he has a 10 team trade selection. Marner is going to walk for free, based on how the fans treated him the last 3 seasons. Why would he want to stay in Toronto? Fans were merciless. Which is weird because he is our playoff leader in points. He is walking and Leaf fans did it themselves. Plus, this is Tre's fault for not getting him signed July 1st. He could have been traded or signed. Now our superstar forward is walking for nothing.

I hope he does go UFA so we can see what his true market value is. Too bad Leafs do not have the stomach or balls to allow it and would rather overpay him after doing so 6 years ago and watching him melt in April.

He is getting between 13.5 and 14.

 

[NMacrules]

This thread is hilarious. To some small degree, I kind of hope Marner does walk for nothing so people get to enter the find out phase where they realize you can’t cobble together a team any more cheaply through free agency by picking over the scraps.

Would be interesting to see how quickly the pack turns on Auston and Willy when it is finally their turn to shoulder the blame too.

Agreed. The fans picked on him merciless. I bet he walks for free for the abuse he took even though he was our playoff leader in points. Marner is uneducated and does not do well with a camera in his face. I bet he is just counting the days until he can go somewhere where he is appreciated.

 

[ToneDog]

First, Marner cannot be traded without waiving his NMC. Its not like he has a 10 team trade selection. Marner is going to walk for free, based on how the fans treated him the last 3 seasons. Why would he want to stay in Toronto? Fans were merciless. Which is weird because he is our playoff leader in points. He is walking and Leaf fans did it themselves. Plus, this is Tre's fault for not getting him signed July 1st. He could have been traded or signed. Now our superstar forward is walking for nothing.


He is getting between 13.5 and 14.

Marner has had a NMC for the last two years of his deal thanks to the rookie. I'd rather let him walk for nothing than pay him $13+m and run this unsuccessful playoffs core back. Regular season success is great but it is time for this core to get it done.

First, Marner cannot be traded without waiving his NMC. Its not like he has a 10 team trade selection. Marner is going to walk for free, based on how the fans treated him the last 3 seasons. Why would he want to stay in Toronto? Fans were merciless. Which is weird because he is our playoff leader in points. He is walking and Leaf fans did it themselves. Plus, this is Tre's fault for not getting him signed July 1st. He could have been traded or signed. Now our superstar forward is walking for nothing.


He is getting between 13.5 and 14.

Sure Darren. I wish any team paying him $13.5-$14m good luck with their jersey sales.

 

[francis246]

Without Kawai, they lose to Philadephia. Raps were good but could not get over the hump. Enter Kawhi.

Marner is not Kawhi until he wins something before any trade. Until then he is the Derozan in a "Kawhi trade". Derozan was good, he just was not Kawhi good.

Lmao this makes no sense. If you’re referring to the trade itself one player is Kawhi and one is DeRozan.

If Marner was to be traded he wouldn’t be viewed as DeRozan in reference to a trade even if he hasn’t won anything. So pick what you want to argue and stick to it. If you’re talking in trade context he’s going to be the best player in the deal. If you’re simply talking about his accomplishments then stick to that and I agree he is more like DeRozan.

 

[ToneDog]

Agreed. The fans picked on him merciless. I bet he walks for free for the abuse he took even though he was our playoff leader in points. Marner is uneducated and does not do well with a camera in his face. I bet he is just counting the days until he can go somewhere where he is appreciated.

Are you talking about the same guy who claimed they are treated like Gods by the Leafs fanbase?

 

[ToneDog]

Lmao this makes no sense. If you’re referring to the trade itself one player is Kawhi and one is DeRozan.

If Marner was to be traded he wouldn’t be viewed as DeRozan in reference to a trade even if he hasn’t won anything. So pick what you want to argue and stick to it. If you’re talking in trade context he’s going to be the best player in the deal. If you’re simply talking about his accomplishments then stick to that and I agree he is more like DeRozan.

Marner is most likely the best player in a trade but in a "Kawhi trade", Marner is Derozan. An example of a Kawhi trade would be MacKinnon for Marner. Marner for Dobson is not a "Kawhi trade" but Marner can be the best player in the trade.

So it comes down to what your definition of a Kawhi trade is. Mine is a team trading a star player who could not deliver a championship after numerous attempts for a better player that has and the GM thinks can get them over the hump.

 

[francis246]

Marner is most likely the best player in a trade but in a "Kawhi trade", Marner is Derozan. An example of a Kawhi trade would be MacKinnon for Marner. Marner for Dobson is not a "Kawhi trade" but Marner can be the best player in the trade.

Lol and this is my point exactly. Comparing him to that is STUPID. Because it’s probably unlikely a trade like ever happens.

Thank you.

Kawhi trades do not happen. Unless it’s the NBA. That’s why I made the comparison to an NHL relative trade. Marner would be Tkachuk or Eichel. That is the closest version. In my opinion I view the Kawhi trade as trading for an impact player not necessarily a proven winner or whatever. So I draw parallels between Tkachuk and Eichel anyways. So it’s up to interpretation. The fact that Kawhi was an MVP is great but he was getting traded regardless. The trade was more about his injuries and the team wanting to move on from because the organization was sick of his antics.

 

[mapleleaf979]

@ 1 Marner at 12 million or @2 Bennett at 2 c for 8 million plus another 4 million dollar tanev/mccabe type?

Easy choice @ 2.

 

[ToneDog]

Lol and this is my point exactly. Comparing him to that is STUPID. Because it’s probably unlikely a trade like ever happens.

Thank you.

What? It's a forum. We are talking hypothetically. Time to take a break.

@ 1 Marner at 12 million or @2 Bennett at 2 c for 8 million plus another 4 million dollar tanev/mccabe type?

Easy choice @ 2.

Now do Marner at $13 or $14m. LOL.

 

[thewave]

Ok so we can hold this guy's 8th year hostage. Maybe he wants 4 years because the way cap is going up. Fair. Now now at what price does the damn NMC go away? How is it that everyone gets these freaking NMCs? They destroy the trade game and interest that goes along with trade talks. They should be removed completely.

It's so weird that something you pay for can't be moved on from. Makes no sense. Imagine a car you couldn't put on lease busters or auto trader.

 

[ULF_55]

But where do expected assist fit in to the mix

My guess they are recorded on expected, but not achieved, goals.

A primary pass for a shot on net.

Having a marner for your shooter makes a lot of sense.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Now now at what price does the damn NMC go away?

There is no chance that Marner signs without a NMC.

 

[ToneDog]

Ok so we can hold this guy's 8th year hostage. Maybe he wants 4 years because the way cap is going up. Fair. Now now at what price does the damn NMC go away? How is it that everyone gets these freaking NMCs? They destroy the trade game and interest that goes along with trade talks. They should be removed completely.

It's so weird that something you pay for can't be moved on from. Makes no sense. Imagine a car you couldn't put on lease busters or auto trader.

Nobody is forcing GMs to hand them out like candy on Halloween and believe it or not, some players with NMC have waived and were subsequently traded. Hell it just happened a few days ago.

 

[francis246]

Ok so we can hold this guy's 8th year hostage. Maybe he wants 4 years because the way cap is going up. Fair. Now now at what price does the damn NMC go away? How is it that everyone gets these freaking NMCs? They destroy the trade game and interest that goes along with trade talks. They should be removed completely.

It's so weird that something you pay for can't be moved on from. Makes no sense. Imagine a car you couldn't put on lease busters or auto trader.

Because it’s the only piece of leverage the players have in the most restrictive cap league in major league sports. If you want me to take less than market value I’m having full control or partial control of where I’m going after or when you decide I’m no longer useful to your organization.

In the NFL you can restructure deals. Players can be released and go where ever they want without waivers.

In the MLB players are well compensated.

In the NBA players are well compensated and GM’s for the most part will work with agents and players to trade them wherever they want to go if the team wants to move them. Contracts are also short.

NHL players are severely under paid, because the cap was low many players used limited/full NTC’s and NMC’s as leverage to sign. Maybe as the cap goes up we’ll see less of them.

Inside the NHL’s NMC/NTC mania: Why trade protection is booming, and is it changing the deadline?

Nearly a quarter of the NHL (245 of 965 players) now has some form of trade protection, a number that's risen 44.1 percent in six seasons.

www.nytimes.com

This article from the athletic touches on it