Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

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What people fail to realize is that Marner is the Kawhi for someone else. Marner is the Tkachuk for someone else. I don’t think it’s impossible to grab someone who can make us better but we kind of missed that boat through trade. Maybe Rantanen ends up in UFA. But I think we missed out on that Werenski + for Marner opportunity a few years ago. Or maybe we could have done Tkachuk for Marner a couple years ago and passed.



It’s actually insane how one tweet can spark that much rage lmao.
Marner is the Kawhi for someone else? Kawhi was a playoff stud before he was traded to the Raptors and he put an average Raptors team on his back and dragged them to an NBA championship. What's Marner won? A Molson cup, a couple of expected Selkes and a contract negotiation with a weak rookie GM.

Marner is clearly the Derozan of any deal.
 
What people fail to realize is that Marner is the Kawhi for someone else. Marner is the Tkachuk for someone else. I don’t think it’s impossible to grab someone who can make us better but we kind of missed that boat through trade. Maybe Rantanen ends up in UFA. But I think we missed out on that Werenski + for Marner opportunity a few years ago. Or maybe we could have done Tkachuk for Marner a couple years ago and passed.



It’s actually insane how one tweet can spark that much rage lmao.

Woahh hold up hold up full stop right there. Back that thing up Francis. Marner is not a closer, top 5 player or clutch performer. He is absolutely nothing at all like a Kawhi type player. That would be a Crosby, Mack, McDavid etc.

Don't post something like that on main boards or we will have eternal shame

Marner is the Kawhi for someone else? Kawhi was a playoff stud before he was traded to the Raptors and he put an average Raptors team on his back and dragged them to an NBA championship. What's Marner won? A Molson cup, a couple of expected Selkes and a contract negotiation with a weak rookie GM.

Marner is clearly the Derozan of any deal.
Yes Derozan for sure
 
I’m pretty sure the common denominator is the problem.
I'm afraid It's pretty black and white when you have that many early exits in a row.
No that's literally just the correlation/causation fallacy. It's one of the most famous and common logical fallacies that exist.
Let's assume we accept they're winning to the best in the business, isn't it wise to look at what those teams are doing compared to the Leafs? Are they putting all of their money into a core four like the Leafs or have they divided their funds better?
Successful teams invest in their core and find efficiencies in their depth. A number of the teams that beat us did so by being comparatively healthy and winning the goalie battle with some of the best goalies of this era, but those aren't things you can just go out and pick up at the corner store.
Why do the Leafs core's numbers drop dramatically on the big stage while those teams get most of their guys to perform? Aren't those teams also up against a "good" team in the Leafs?
The core numbers aren't dropping off in isolation. They drop along with the rest of the team. Which is usually what happens with players in the playoffs. They rise or fall in general alignment with the rest of their team based on the situation the team experiences.

And unfortunately, what we've experienced in the playoffs hasn't been very conducive to production. We've been in the strongest division in the strongest conference, facing a ton of cup finalists on the runs of their lives, with strong defences and some of the best goalies of this era. Throughout the Matthews era, we have averaged facing Vezina caliber goaltending. What do you think the scoring race would look like right now if teams were facing Vezina goaltending every night?

And when we have faced closer to league average goaltending, like through the two Tampa series, the production of our stars is suddenly a lot more normal.

Marner: 1.46 P/GP
Matthews: 1.38 P/GP
Nylander: 1.08 P/GP
Tavares: 1.00 P/GP

What a surprise! Most high-end players struggle the same as ours have when they run into situations that ours have. The difference is that those players have had more stat-boosting series than we have (and often didn't start in the playoffs until they were more developed), so their averages are higher.

And while we haven't had Vezina caliber goaltending ourselves, we generally have actually been quite good at limiting opposing superstars that face us, especially when we were a good defensive team, through strong defense and matching up elite defensive players like Matthews and Marner against them.

Of Montreal's top 3 regular season scorers, Toffoli dropped from 0.85 to 0.71, Suzuki dropped from 0.73 to 0.57, and Gallagher dropped from 0.66 to 0.14. Danault, who was deployed as their 1st line center, had 1 point. Caufield, their sniper, had 1 point; an assist.

Of Tampa's top 3 regular season scorers over the two years we faced them, Kucherov dropped from 1.41 to 1.08 (with just 5 ES points in 13 games), Stamkos dropped from 1.17 to 0.62, and Point dropped from 1.03 to 0.62.

Of Florida's top 4 regular season scorers, Tkachuk dropped from 1.38 to 1.00 (no goals), Barkov dropped from 1.15 to 0.60, Verhaeghe dropped from 0.90 to 0.80, and Reinhart dropped from 0.82 to 0.60.

Even throughout other years where we were bad defensively, we still saw some stars struggle in series against us. Ovechkin was 0.5 P/GP against us. In the 2019 playoffs, Pastrnak and Bergeron dropped 0.37 and 0.51 P/GP respectively relative to their regular seasons. Pastrnak dropped 0.63 P/GP last year.
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to change the core nor is it a major sin.
It's not a sin to feel the way you do. When you just look at things on a simple surface level, it's natural to feel frustrated and feel like something about this is cursed. It's not a common situation. But you should understand what's actually happening, because what you're advocating for will make us worse. And then we'll see these core members go off and dominate playoff scoring and win cups when they stop facing stuff like this, and we'll be all surprise pikachu face. I'd rather that scoring explosion help us win, not another team.
 
I'd be asking for $93 more than Draisaitl. Tre will cave once he reads the landscape and realizes there are teams out there with tons of cap space that will gladly pay him even more money.
And of course you simply can't let a player like that walk for nothing, that would be poor asset management.
 
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I guess you're unaware that unlike Marner, Kawhi was a proven playoff performer before he got traded here. As a matter of fact he already had playoff MVP on his resume, unlike Marner who's production takes a massive dip in the playoffs.

You'd be closer to the truth if you said that Marner was the opposite of Kawhi.

I guess you missed it but just a few weeks ago, Marner said that he was treated like a god in Toronto. Doesn't sound like someone with "the weight of the world on his shoulders" to me.
I guess you're unaware that unlike Marner, Kawhi was a proven playoff performer before he got traded here. As a matter of fact he already had playoff MVP on his resume, unlike Marner who's production takes a massive dip in the playoffs.

You'd be closer to the truth if you said that Marner was the opposite of Kawhi.

I guess you missed it but just a few weeks ago, Marner said that he was treated like a god in Toronto. Doesn't sound like someone with "the weight of the world on his shoulders" to me.


Was Tkachuk a playoff performer before Florida or did he change that narrative once he got there? Cause I follow the flames as my second team since my family also lives in Calgary, Tkachuk wasn’t some playoff God..


I get it’s cool for the likes on hf boards to shit on Marner but the truth is if Marner was to go to a contender he’d improve their odds of winning a lot. So you can be facetious all you want.
 
And of course you simply can't let a player like that walk for nothing, that would be poor asset management.
Maybe at $4-5M but $14M gives the team a lot of options to build a deeper team with more depth scoring and a team that is harder to play against. I still don’t see this core group having what it takes to win a cup. They will never play with the courage necessary to win four rounds against tough opponents. I still see Matthews, Marner and Nylander losing puck battles to avoid getting hit and instead of digging in when the games heat up they panic and become less effective. Teams know how to beat the Leafs whose lack of depth scoring depends totally on those star players scoring. They hit them at every opportunity and keep them to the perimeter in the ozone. The Leafs will get pushed out of another series this year and it will be nine seasons of playoff failures to learn from. I hope I’m wrong but in my eyes, nothing will change until they break up this soft core group who wilt under pressure.
 
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Marner is the Kawhi for someone else? Kawhi was a playoff stud before he was traded to the Raptors and he put an average Raptors team on his back and dragged them to an NBA championship. What's Marner won? A Molson cup, a couple of expected Selkes and a contract negotiation with a weak rookie GM.

Marner is clearly the Derozan of any deal.

As I asked Gary! What the hell was Kadri, Kessel and Tkachuk viewed as before? It’s easy to pick the biggest outlier in sports and say, Marner isn’t going to be that.

You do realize how dumb of an assumption that is. You’re assuming Marner is getting traded for a better player. If Marner is the BEST player in the deal than what? If Marner is getting traded it’s likely for futures. Rarely do those 1 for 1 deals happen and if they do, depending on what happens you might be able to get a better player for Marner, but we saw with Rantanen, even Colorado didn’t get a better player, they got worse and gave up the superior player. A Marner deal would look more like a Rantanen deal compared to Tkachuk.
 
Was Tkachuk a playoff performer before Florida or did he change that narrative once he got there? Cause I follow the flames as my second team since my family also lives in Calgary, Tkachuk wasn’t some playoff God..

I get it’s cool for the likes on hf boards to shit on Marner but the truth is if Marner was to go to a contender he’d improve their odds of winning a lot. So you can be facetious all you want.
Marner to this point in his career is a lot more Derozan then he is Khawi. Looking at things objectively is not shitting on anyone, it's just ... being objective.
 
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Woahh hold up hold up full stop right there. Back that thing up Francis. Marner is not a closer, top 5 player or clutch performer. He is absolutely nothing at all like a Kawhi type player. That would be a Crosby, Mack, McDavid etc.

Don't post something like that on main boards or we will have eternal shame


Yes Derozan for sure

Hahaha. Comprehension is a hard thing here.
 
Maybe at $4-5M but $14M gives the team a lot of options to build a deeper team with more depth scoring and a team that is harder to play against. I still don’t see this core group having what it takes to win a cup. They will never play with the courage necessary to win four rounds against tough opponents. I still see Matthews, Marner and Nylander losing puck battles to avoid getting hit and instead of digging in when the games heat up they panic and become less effective. Teams know how to beat the Leafs whose lack of depth scoring depends totally on those star players scoring. They hit them at every opportunity and keep them to the perimeter in the ozone. The Leafs will get pushed out of another series this year and it will be nine seasons of playoff failures to learn from. I hope I’m wrong but in my eyes, nothing will change until they break up this soft core group who wilt under pressure.
I hope we're both wrong, but for the most part I agree with this. The only thing I don't agree with is Nylander, I've seen several playoff games (including a couple against Boston last year) when it looked most of our players had given up already and Nylander was still buzzing around out there creating chances. But Marner yeah, when the going gets tough, he becomes ineffective.
 
Marner to this point in his career is a lot more Derozan then he is Khawi. Looking at things objectively is not shitting on anyone, it's just ... being objective.

That isn’t the point. The point being that, if we are talking about Marner relative to a trade in the NHL today, he’s not going to be Derozan in that trade.

If the Vegas golden knights trade for Marner right now. They make a trade similar value to what Colorado got for Rantanen. Pavel Dorofeyev + something else for Marner. Who in their right mind is saying Marner is Derozan in that trade? Marner is going to be the guy that puts Vegas over the top with their current roster. That’s what I’m saying.

If they trade Marner for Eichel then you can make the argument that Marner is Derozan. But a Marner for Eichel trade is rare and unlikely and would never happen. Therefore Marner would RARELY end up being Derozan because the likelihood of him being the worst player in that trade is slim.
 
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That isn’t the point. The point being that, if we are talking about Marner relative to a trade in the NHL today, he’s not going to be Derozan in that trade.

If the Vegas golden knights trade for Marner right now. They make a trade similar value to what Colorado got for Rantanen. Pavel Dorofeyev + something else for Marner. Who in their right mind is saying Marner is Derozan in that trade? Marner is going to be the guy that puts Vegas over the top with their current roster. That’s what I’m saying.

If they trade Marner for Eichel then you can make the argument that Marner is Derozan. But a Marner for Eichel trade is rare and unlikely and would never happen. Therefore Marner would RARELY end up being Derozan because the likelihood of him being the worst player in that trade is slim.
It is 100% the point. Several people have drawn comparisons between Derozan and Marner and that makes a lot of sense. You're the first person I've seen compare Marner to Kawhi and it makes no sense at all.

If you were to put up a poll (either here or the main boards) asking if Marner is more like Derozan or Kawhi, you'd be laughed off the forum and the results would be something like 99% Kawhi. You'd get the few people here who seem like alt accounts for the Marner family voting Kawhi and the rest of the world voting Derozan. Go ahead and try it if you don't believe me but I don't think you'll be happy with the results.
 
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As I asked Gary! What the hell was Kadri, Kessel and Tkachuk viewed as before? It’s easy to pick the biggest outlier in sports and say, Marner isn’t going to be that.

You do realize how dumb of an assumption that is. You’re assuming Marner is getting traded for a better player. If Marner is the BEST player in the deal than what? If Marner is getting traded it’s likely for futures. Rarely do those 1 for 1 deals happen and if they do, depending on what happens you might be able to get a better player for Marner, but we saw with Rantanen, even Colorado didn’t get a better player, they got worse and gave up the superior player. A Marner deal would look more like a Rantanen deal compared to Tkachuk.
MM can be a Tkachuk, Eichel, Phil. But you can’t state he is Kawhi bc when Kawhi was traded to the Raptors, he already performed in the playoffs, won Championships and was Finals MVP.

By looking at recent trade, it does seem like that the team with the better player end up winnining the Cup but think that’s also due to that team being close and actually found the right piece. Personally, I think Flames won that trade with Panthers by a bit bc Huber was a 100pts player, Weegar a top pairing RD and a 1st rounder. But Panthers won the Cup.

If MM is traded it will be a Rantanen type as I don’t think any teams will trade a 100pts winger, a top pairing Dman and their 1st for MM.

As for MM walking, I believe he is walking too and that’s the smart thing for him to do bc so far he has shown that he can’t be an alpha on the team but he could be a great Beta. And that’s nothing wrong with that, Pippen was one of the best players in the league while being the Beta to MJ’s alpha. If I am MM, I will go to a team that got true alphas and just play the supporting role and get paid like a superstar like Eichel in Vegas.
 
It is 100% the point. Several people have drawn comparisons between Derozan and Marner and that makes a lot of sense. You're the first person I've seen compare Marner to Kawhi and it makes no sense at all.

If you were to put up a poll (either here or the main boards) asking if Marner is more like Derozan or Kawhi, you'd be laughed off the forum and the results would be something like 99% Kawhi. You'd get the few people here who seem like alt accounts for the Marner family voting Kawhi and the rest of the world voting Derozan. Go ahead and try it if you don't believe me but I don't think you'll be happy with the results.

We’re arguing two different things anyways. So there’s no point in even continuing.

You’ve completely switched from saying Marner would be Derozan in any trade. To now saying he’s just a direct comparable to demar derzon which I don’t necessarily disagree with.

But if we are talking about in the context of an NHL TRADE like you originally were. Marner would not be viewed as demar derzon and I already outlined why. If you want to stick to that context as you started. I’m happy to continue to explain why I think that’s a wrong statement. If you are now switching your position to he’s just directly comparable to Demar I’m not gonna argue that. So pick which one and let me know cause the whole thing started with people saying he’d be demar derzon in a trade, which is false.
 
That isn’t the point. The point being that, if we are talking about Marner relative to a trade in the NHL today, he’s not going to be Derozan in that trade.

If the Vegas golden knights trade for Marner right now. They make a trade similar value to what Colorado got for Rantanen. Pavel Dorofeyev + something else for Marner. Who in their right mind is saying Marner is Derozan in that trade? Marner is going to be the guy that puts Vegas over the top with their current roster. That’s what I’m saying.

If they trade Marner for Eichel then you can make the argument that Marner is Derozan. But a Marner for Eichel trade is rare and unlikely and would never happen. Therefore Marner would RARELY end up being Derozan because the likelihood of him being the worst player in that trade is slim.
Just say MM will be the best player in any trades instead of saying he is Kawhi.
In fact, I don’t think anyone can be another Kawhi in any trades since he was traded mainly bc of health issues as he played like 9 games or so the season before he was dealt.
 
MM can be a Tkachuk, Eichel, Phil. But you can’t state he is Kawhi bc when Kawhi was traded to the Raptors, he already performed in the playoffs, won Championships and was Finals MVP.

By looking at recent trade, it does seem like that the team with the better player end up winnining the Cup but think that’s also due to that team being close and actually found the right piece. Personally, I think Flames won that trade with Panthers by a bit bc Huber was a 100pts player, Weegar a top pairing RD and a 1st rounder. But Panthers won the Cup.

If MM is traded it will be a Rantanen type as I don’t think any teams will trade a 100pts winger, a top pairing Dman and their 1st for MM.

As for MM walking, I believe he is walking too and that’s the smart thing for him to do bc so far he has shown that he can’t be an alpha on the team but he could be a great Beta. And that’s nothing wrong with that, Pippen was one of the best players in the league while being the Beta to MJ’s alpha. If I am MM, I will go to a team that got true alphas and just play the supporting role and get paid like a superstar like Eichel in Vegas.

Thank you for being the only person to understand what I was saying. Relative to a trade, there’s about a 1% chance Marner ends up being Derozan in that scenario. And I don’t understand your point about Marner not being Kawhi. How do you know that? Did anyone think Tkachuk would have the impact he had once traded there? Florida struggled early on with him. They were the 8th seed after trading for him. They went from presidents trophy to 8th seed. But he found a new gear in the playoffs. EVERYONE THOUGHT CALGARY FLEECED. Now after a few years we’ve realized Tkachuk ended up being The Kawahi but at the time everyone thought Huberdeau was an upgrade.

The whole point im making is that arbitrarily saying Marner is gonna be Derozan is stupid. In the world of sports you can assume anything. A player once moved can have a huge impact. We don’t know what type of player Marner could be on a new team. Now please tell me I’m incorrect about that. We both know I’m not
 
He's worth $13m in the regular season, but he's not worth $13m in the playoffs, not even close. People that don't care about the playoffs should be happy to pay Marner $13m, he's a great player so why not? People that want to win in the playoffs are ready to move on from Marner, hell they've been ready for years.

There seem to be a bunch of people that want Marner signed, and also want playoff success. Now those are the people who just don't get it.
Look at Ottawa. Do they have a 13 million dollar player? They will soon be better than us at a fraction of the cost to their key players. This whole stupid model is about to implode. Soon even Montreal will rise with all their young guys on good contracts. We screwed up the day we hired Dubas and over paid. We now need out of this mess, not deeper into it.
 
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We’re arguing two different things anyways. So there’s no point in even continuing.

You’ve completely switched from saying Marner would be Derozan in any trade. To now saying he’s just a direct comparable to demar derzon which I don’t necessarily disagree with.

But if we are talking about in the context of an NHL TRADE like you originally were.
Marner would not be viewed as demar derzon and I already outlined why. If you want to stick to that context as you started. I’m happy to continue to explain why I think that’s a wrong statement. If you are now switching your position to he’s just directly comparable to Demar I’m not gonna argue that. So pick which one and let me know cause the whole thing started with people saying he’d be demar derzon in a trade, which is false.
You're the one talking about hypothetical trades, I was simply pointing out that Marner is nothing like Kawhi. Here's my original post on the subject in case you've forgotten:

I guess you're unaware that unlike Marner, Kawhi was a proven playoff performer before he got traded here. As a matter of fact he already had playoff MVP on his resume, unlike Marner who's production takes a massive dip in the playoffs.

You'd be closer to the truth if you said that Marner was the opposite of Kawhi.
The observant student will note that there is no "context of an NHL trade here. Are you an observant student?
It's OK to just admit you're wrong. That's an honorable thing to do but instead, you're just making stuff up.

Look at Ottawa. Do they have a 13 million dollar player? They will soon be better than us at a fraction of the cost to their key players. This whole stupid model is about to implode. Soon even Montreal will rise with all their young guys on good contracts. We screwed up the day we hired Dubas and over paid. We now need out of this mess, not deeper into it.
It's scary how close Ottawa is to us in the standings and they even have a better goal differential than we do. I know we were 4th in the the overall standings not too long ago but I don't see how our team can be classified as anything other than mediocre.
 
Thank you for being the only person to understand what I was saying. Relative to a trade, there’s about a 1% chance Marner ends up being Derozan in that scenario. And I don’t understand your point about Marner not being Kawhi. How do you know that? Did anyone think Tkachuk would have the impact he had once traded there? Florida struggled early on with him. They were the 8th seed after trading for him. They went from presidents trophy to 8th seed. But he found a new gear in the playoffs. EVERYONE THOUGHT CALGARY FLEECED. Now after a few years we’ve realized Tkachuk ended up being The Kawahi but at the time everyone thought Huberdeau was an upgrade.

The whole point im making is that arbitrarily saying Marner is gonna be Derozan is stupid. In the world of sports you can assume anything. A player once moved can have a huge impact. We don’t know what type of player Marner could be on a new team. Now please tell me I’m incorrect about that. We both know I’m not
I won’t even call Tkachuk as the Kawhi in that trade bc like I said, Kawhi was a Finals MVP and won Championships before he was traded. None of Tkachuk, Phil, Eichel won any Finals MVP or Cup before they were traded. Heck I won’t even call Canes getting their Kawhi in Rantenen as he was not Finals MVP. Although Rantenen is the closest of them all since he won a Cup and performed in playoffs.

From what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong. You are defining Kawhi as the best player in a trade, while Gary, myself and others are defining Kawhi as not only the best player in a trade but also the Ulitmate playoffs performer as he has won Championships and Finals MVP before the trade.
As for the DD comparison, it was more to do with being a playoffs choker than being the worse player in the deal.

That’s why I believe and agree with you the MM is going to be the best player in a trade but he ain’t Kawhi bc Kawhi is a champion before the trade.

Put it this way, let’s erase the DD and Kawhi trade. And just look at their stats and accomplishments, who does MM reminds more. Someone like DD who had great regular season numbers but failed to perform in playoffs or Kawhi who had great regular season numbers along with Clutch Playoffs numbers.
 
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You're the one talking about hypothetical trades, I was simply pointing out that Marner is nothing like Kawhi. Here's my original post on the subject in case you've forgotten:

I guess you're unaware that unlike Marner, Kawhi was a proven playoff performer before he got traded here. As a matter of fact he already had playoff MVP on his resume, unlike Marner who's production takes a massive dip in the playoffs.

You'd be closer to the truth if you said that Marner was the opposite of Kawhi.
The observant student will note that there is no "context of an NHL trade here. Are you an observant student?
It's OK to just admit you're wrong. That's an honorable thing to do but instead, you're just making stuff up.


It's scary how close Ottawa is to us in the standings and they even have a better goal differential than we do. I know we were 4th in the the overall standings not too long ago but I don't see how our team can be classified as anything other than mediocre.

I went back and read and surprise
, surprise you jumped into my convo with someone else.

We originally started talking about acquiring our Kawahi. Which is why my context has been through trades and acquiring. You jumped in talking about Marner simply is Kawahi.
 
I won’t even call Tkachuk as the Kawhi in that trade bc like I said, Kawhi was a Finals MVP and won Championships before he was traded. None of Tkachuk, Phil, Eichel won any Finals MVP or Cup before they were traded. Heck I won’t even call Canes getting their Kawhi in Rantenen as he was not Finals MVP. Although Rantenen is the closest of them all since he won a Cup and performed in playoffs.

From what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong. You are defining Kawhi as the best player in a trade, while Gary, myself and others are defining Kawhi as not only the best player in a trade but also the Ulitmate playoffs performer as he has won Championships and Finals MVP before the trade.
As for the DD comparison, it was more to do with being a playoffs choker than being the worse player in the deal.
That’s why I believe and agree with you the MM is going to be the best player in a trade but he ain’t Kawhi bc Kawhi is a champion before the trade.

Correct. I’m equating it to a team acquiring a Kawhi. So I’m equating that to being the best player in a trade because haven’t really seen a move like that in the NHL. I mean how else would you acquire a “Kawhi” type. A Kawhi is rarely even available. So if we are talking about NHL context that is usually the best player acquired in a deal that would put a player over. Is there even a Kawhi like move that has happened in the NHL?

If we want to make it more relative to hockey, I’d be more than happy to. Marner would more than likely end up being Kessel, Tkachuk or Eichel in a deal. He’d be the best player acquired going to a contending team that would probably help put them over the top. And the reason I used Tkachuk is because I’ve seen on more than one occasion that trade being referenced as being the closest thing to a Kawhi type trade in the NHL on multiple occasions on this board.
 
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Marner is the Kawhi for someone else? Kawhi was a playoff stud before he was traded to the Raptors and he put an average Raptors team on his back and dragged them to an NBA championship. What's Marner won? A Molson cup, a couple of expected Selkes and a contract negotiation with a weak rookie GM.

Marner is clearly the Derozan of any deal.
Tell me you know nothing about basketball, without telling me you know nothing about basketball.

That Raptors team is arguably a top 5 greatest defensive team of all time, no exaggeration. Quite possibly the deepest team in the NBA since Nowitizki/Kidd Mavericks won the title. Kawhi, Lowry, Green, Ibaka, Gasol are all elite defenders. Then you had Siakam, Vanvleet and Powell coming off the bench.

Kawhi was a playoff stud and the best 2 way player in the league of course, but that entire team was elite. Had Kawahi stayed, no doubt in my mind that group wins at least 1 more title.


As for Marner, this year is his last prove it year. The way he's playing though, I expect his game to translate well in the playoffs. Why ? Because he's being physical, forechecking hard and finishing checks, getting into scrums and he's not being a shy perimeter player like he did in years past. It's not how many points, it's how he's getting them. He's been our MVP by FAR this year.

If he doesn't show up in the playoffs again, then yes it's over.
 
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