Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

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What people fail to realize is that Marner is the Kawhi for someone else. Marner is the Tkachuk for someone else. I don’t think it’s impossible to grab someone who can make us better but we kind of missed that boat through trade. Maybe Rantanen ends up in UFA. But I think we missed out on that Werenski + for Marner opportunity a few years ago. Or maybe we could have done Tkachuk for Marner a couple years ago and passed.



It’s actually insane how one tweet can spark that much rage lmao.
Marner is the Kawhi for someone else? Kawhi was a playoff stud before he was traded to the Raptors and he put an average Raptors team on his back and dragged them to an NBA championship. What's Marner won? A Molson cup, a couple of expected Selkes and a contract negotiation with a weak rookie GM.

Marner is clearly the Derozan of any deal.
 
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What people fail to realize is that Marner is the Kawhi for someone else. Marner is the Tkachuk for someone else. I don’t think it’s impossible to grab someone who can make us better but we kind of missed that boat through trade. Maybe Rantanen ends up in UFA. But I think we missed out on that Werenski + for Marner opportunity a few years ago. Or maybe we could have done Tkachuk for Marner a couple years ago and passed.



It’s actually insane how one tweet can spark that much rage lmao.

Woahh hold up hold up full stop right there. Back that thing up Francis. Marner is not a closer, top 5 player or clutch performer. He is absolutely nothing at all like a Kawhi type player. That would be a Crosby, Mack, McDavid etc.

Don't post something like that on main boards or we will have eternal shame

Marner is the Kawhi for someone else? Kawhi was a playoff stud before he was traded to the Raptors and he put an average Raptors team on his back and dragged them to an NBA championship. What's Marner won? A Molson cup, a couple of expected Selkes and a contract negotiation with a weak rookie GM.

Marner is clearly the Derozan of any deal.
Yes Derozan for sure
 
I’m pretty sure the common denominator is the problem.
I'm afraid It's pretty black and white when you have that many early exits in a row.
No that's literally just the correlation/causation fallacy. It's one of the most famous and common logical fallacies that exist.
Let's assume we accept they're winning to the best in the business, isn't it wise to look at what those teams are doing compared to the Leafs? Are they putting all of their money into a core four like the Leafs or have they divided their funds better?
Successful teams invest in their core and find efficiencies in their depth. A number of the teams that beat us did so by being comparatively healthy and winning the goalie battle with some of the best goalies of this era, but those aren't things you can just go out and pick up at the corner store.
Why do the Leafs core's numbers drop dramatically on the big stage while those teams get most of their guys to perform? Aren't those teams also up against a "good" team in the Leafs?
The core numbers aren't dropping off in isolation. They drop along with the rest of the team. Which is usually what happens with players in the playoffs. They rise or fall in general alignment with the rest of their team based on the situation the team experiences.

And unfortunately, what we've experienced in the playoffs hasn't been very conducive to production. We've been in the strongest division in the strongest conference, facing a ton of cup finalists on the runs of their lives, with strong defences and some of the best goalies of this era. Throughout the Matthews era, we have averaged facing Vezina caliber goaltending. What do you think the scoring race would look like right now if teams were facing Vezina goaltending every night?

And when we have faced closer to league average goaltending, like through the two Tampa series, the production of our stars is suddenly a lot more normal.

Marner: 1.46 P/GP
Matthews: 1.38 P/GP
Nylander: 1.08 P/GP
Tavares: 1.00 P/GP

What a surprise! Most high-end players struggle the same as ours have when they run into situations that ours have. The difference is that those players have had more stat-boosting series than we have (and often didn't start in the playoffs until they were more developed), so their averages are higher.

And while we haven't had Vezina caliber goaltending ourselves, we generally have actually been quite good at limiting opposing superstars that face us, especially when we were a good defensive team, through strong defense and matching up elite defensive players like Matthews and Marner against them.

Of Montreal's top 3 regular season scorers, Toffoli dropped from 0.85 to 0.71, Suzuki dropped from 0.73 to 0.57, and Gallagher dropped from 0.66 to 0.14. Danault, who was deployed as their 1st line center, had 1 point. Caufield, their sniper, had 1 point; an assist.

Of Tampa's top 3 regular season scorers over the two years we faced them, Kucherov dropped from 1.41 to 1.08 (with just 5 ES points in 13 games), Stamkos dropped from 1.17 to 0.62, and Point dropped from 1.03 to 0.62.

Of Florida's top 4 regular season scorers, Tkachuk dropped from 1.38 to 1.00 (no goals), Barkov dropped from 1.15 to 0.60, Verhaeghe dropped from 0.90 to 0.80, and Reinhart dropped from 0.82 to 0.60.

Even throughout other years where we were bad defensively, we still saw some stars struggle in series against us. Ovechkin was 0.5 P/GP against us. In the 2019 playoffs, Pastrnak and Bergeron dropped 0.37 and 0.51 P/GP respectively relative to their regular seasons. Pastrnak dropped 0.63 P/GP last year.
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to change the core nor is it a major sin.
It's not a sin to feel the way you do. When you just look at things on a simple surface level, it's natural to feel frustrated and feel like something about this is cursed. It's not a common situation. But you should understand what's actually happening, because what you're advocating for will make us worse. And then we'll see these core members go off and dominate playoff scoring and win cups when they stop facing stuff like this, and we'll be all surprise pikachu face. I'd rather that scoring explosion help us win, not another team.
 
I'd be asking for $93 more than Draisaitl. Tre will cave once he reads the landscape and realizes there are teams out there with tons of cap space that will gladly pay him even more money.
And of course you simply can't let a player like that walk for nothing, that would be poor asset management.
 
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I guess you're unaware that unlike Marner, Kawhi was a proven playoff performer before he got traded here. As a matter of fact he already had playoff MVP on his resume, unlike Marner who's production takes a massive dip in the playoffs.

You'd be closer to the truth if you said that Marner was the opposite of Kawhi.

I guess you missed it but just a few weeks ago, Marner said that he was treated like a god in Toronto. Doesn't sound like someone with "the weight of the world on his shoulders" to me.
I guess you're unaware that unlike Marner, Kawhi was a proven playoff performer before he got traded here. As a matter of fact he already had playoff MVP on his resume, unlike Marner who's production takes a massive dip in the playoffs.

You'd be closer to the truth if you said that Marner was the opposite of Kawhi.

I guess you missed it but just a few weeks ago, Marner said that he was treated like a god in Toronto. Doesn't sound like someone with "the weight of the world on his shoulders" to me.


Was Tkachuk a playoff performer before Florida or did he change that narrative once he got there? Cause I follow the flames as my second team since my family also lives in Calgary, Tkachuk wasn’t some playoff God..


I get it’s cool for the likes on hf boards to shit on Marner but the truth is if Marner was to go to a contender he’d improve their odds of winning a lot. So you can be facetious all you want.
 
And of course you simply can't let a player like that walk for nothing, that would be poor asset management.
Maybe at $4-5M but $14M gives the team a lot of options to build a deeper team with more depth scoring and a team that is harder to play against. I still don’t see this core group having what it takes to win a cup. They will never play with the courage necessary to win four rounds against tough opponents. I still see Matthews, Marner and Nylander losing puck battles to avoid getting hit and instead of digging in when the games heat up they panic and become less effective. Teams know how to beat the Leafs whose lack of depth scoring depends totally on those star players scoring. They hit them at every opportunity and keep them to the perimeter in the ozone. The Leafs will get pushed out of another series this year and it will be nine seasons of playoff failures to learn from. I hope I’m wrong but in my eyes, nothing will change until they break up this soft core group who wilt under pressure.
 
Marner is the Kawhi for someone else? Kawhi was a playoff stud before he was traded to the Raptors and he put an average Raptors team on his back and dragged them to an NBA championship. What's Marner won? A Molson cup, a couple of expected Selkes and a contract negotiation with a weak rookie GM.

Marner is clearly the Derozan of any deal.

As I asked Gary! What the hell was Kadri, Kessel and Tkachuk viewed as before? It’s easy to pick the biggest outlier in sports and say, Marner isn’t going to be that.

You do realize how dumb of an assumption that is. You’re assuming Marner is getting traded for a better player. If Marner is the BEST player in the deal than what? If Marner is getting traded it’s likely for futures. Rarely do those 1 for 1 deals happen and if they do, depending on what happens you might be able to get a better player for Marner, but we saw with Rantanen, even Colorado didn’t get a better player, they got worse and gave up the superior player. A Marner deal would look more like a Rantanen deal compared to Tkachuk.
 

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