Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[Metroid]

Really weird deflections here.

It's been a topic since the very start about the Leafs cap structure and if it's the right way to go. We learned another big lesson today that other, more successful organizations do not seem to desire this cap structure at all. You seem very upset that people wanna discuss this.

Not at all a deflection, people can talk about it. They'll talk about it for years to come, just saying with our corporate overlord owners a trade of this magnitude will never happen. Obi I'll eat crow if it does, but msle will take safe way, route of least resistance to try to win. They'll sign marner, for better for for worse and it is what it is. I'm more upset at MLSE in general than I am of Marner or any player we have or any posts here.

 

[IPS]

Bottom Line:
-> You can't be paying more than other teams for your own elite talent;
-> have absolutely ridiculous cap allocation (11AAV+ 4 forwards this year)
-> and expect to have success


Want to win the cup or just keep paying ridiculous aav to leafs players? pick one you can't have both!


If the goal is to win the CUP then current cap allocation and structure is a ridiculous. Plenty of historical evidence *7 years worth (post JT signing)

Bingo right here.

Today is interesting for Leafs nation because it's very clear that other organizations are NOT trying to copy our cap structure, not even close. It'd be a little easier to stomach if these other teams have had struggles in the playoffs but that's not the case - Colorado won out drafting Rantanen, won the cup, and punted him out the door when he wanted to put money over the team.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Cup winning teams are willing to trade core players

 

[Evilhomer]

Also instructive, Carolina wins this trade.

In the short-term. In the long-term, when MK signs with another team in the summer, it will turn into a terrible trade for Carolina.

 

[SprDaVE]

Bottom Line:
-> You can't be paying more than other teams for your own elite talent;
-> have absolutely ridiculous cap allocation (11AAV+ 4 forwards this year)
-> and expect to have success


Want to win the cup or just keep paying ridiculous aav to leafs players? pick one you can't have both!


If the goal is to win the CUP then current cap allocation and structure is a ridiculous. Plenty of historical evidence *7 years worth (post JT signing)

A big part of the salary is definitely getting efficient players on the dollar. Colorado didn't want to pay that much for their top winger, so we'll see how it works out for them. Now they have 1 top line center and a bunch of mid-line players/wingers.

As for the Leafs and Marner, we'll be in a similar boat. We'll see how the Leafs do in the next 3-4 months.

 

[ToneDog]

No he should have signed him
Is he worth 14 if course not but you have no choice if you want to contend. Necas might be cost controlled but he isn’t the player that rantenan is.
In this scenario the avs are not a cup contender just a playoff team.

I don't think they have much of a better chance to win the cup with Ranta so I would have traded him rather than use him as an own rental.

 

[PromisedLand]

Bingo right here.

Today is interesting for Leafs nation because it's very clear that other organizations are NOT trying to copy our cap structure, not even close. It'd be a little easier to stomach if these other teams have had struggles in the playoffs but that's not the case - Colorado won out drafting Rantanen, won the cup, and punted him out the door when he wanted to put money over the team.

the frustrating part for me is that we keep paying elite talent the premium that other teams don't with their own elite talent. And lets suppose we want to keep paying premium to retain our elite talent then that elite talent MUST make bargain bin dives we do to sign cheap contracts for depth productive

that is to say Matthews, Marner and Nylander should play on three different lines and make the lesser aav players productive and create our own depth because after paying ridiculous aav to our so called elite talent there isn't enough left for to pay for quality depth. but of course they wouldn't even do this shit

The only series win we have agains Tampa Keefe rolled all the 3 guys on three different lines and created match-up headache for tampa. And then against florida he went back to the 34-16 duo and got his ass handed to him. Its f***ing unbelievable how stupid can you be?

 

[PromisedLand]

A big part of the salary is definitely getting efficient players on the dollar. Colorado didn't want to pay that much for their top winger, so we'll see how it works out for them. Now they have 1 top line center and a bunch of mid-line players/wingers.

As for the Leafs and Marner, we'll be in a similar boat. We'll see how the Leafs do in the next 3-4 months.

Why are you discounting the fact that Avs have recently won a cup and have had more than 1 round wins multiple times and have also had conference final finishes. Sure they found a Makar but they were able to add to their team because of cap flexibility to have decent multiple chances at the cup.

Only way Leafs to have success while rolling with ridiculous high AAV for Matthews, Marner and Nylander is for them to play on different lines and make their line mates productive i.e. create our own quality depth. If they can't do that then one of them have gotta go so we can add quality pieces for depth scoring in playoffs.

If the goal is to win the CUP then somethings gotta give. We can't continue to roll with the same bullshit philosophy we've had for the last 7 years.

Not sure about everyone else but I'd like to see Leafs win the cup before I am 6 feet under....

 

[francis246]

If you can’t trade him because he doesn’t want to play anywhere but Toronto. Why would the Leafs offer him market value (whatever Rantanen gets) when he’s limiting his market to one team?

By all accounts the leafs haven’t offered him a market value deal. But hf boards is gonna hf boards. (Speculate to death)

 

[SprDaVE]

Why are you discounting the fact that Avs have recently won a cup and have had more than 1 round wins multiple times and have also had conference final finishes. Sure they found a Makar but they were able to add to their team because of cap flexibility to have decent multiple chances at the cup.

Only way Leafs to have success while rolling with ridiculous high AAV for Matthews, Marner and Nylander is for them to play on different lines and make their line mates productive i.e. create our own quality depth. If they can't do that then one of them have gotta go so we can add quality pieces for depth scoring in playoffs.

If the goal is to win the CUP then somethings gotta give. We can't continue to roll with the same bullshit philosophy we've had for the last 7 years.

Not sure about everyone else but I'd like to see Leafs win the cup before I am 6 feet under....

Am I discounting that fact? When did I? I'm well aware of that. Also, Rantanen was their top scoring forward in their cup run... now he's gone.

Leafs do need to be more aggressive. Not sure doing what the Avs did would help the Leafs this season though. The time to make big changes was the last few off-seasons but even with a new GM the motto is the same. We can't even make a simple off-season trade.

I'm with all of you about cap allocation and making changes. I'm not sure I understand why people would want to essentially give away Marner at this point of the season. We might as well just take a shot at the cup with our best players... if it falters again, then we can only hope they finally do something, for better or worse.

 

[Gabriel426]

Nylanders poor defensive numbers and facing lesser comp is what brings him down. He's one of the best scoring wingers in the league and being used well. I dont think he could thrive with the comp guys like MM and AM face. It's just not his game. He needs to be a Kessel for us in the playoffs and has largely played that role.

Tavares is a different player than when he arrived. He quickly became one of the top faceoff guys in hockey with us and has now changed his game to a far more responsible defensive style. He's going to take a big haircut to stay with the team as he already has been paid and wants to stay. How much he gets depends on how well he does for us in the playoffs. If he gets any more than 7, it means he (and we) have had a great playoffs IMO.

Honestly, not saying lesser comp is not a thing or won’t affect a player’s performance but 100pts is 100pts, or 50 goals is 50 goals regardless of how and whom you scored those goals.

I do find these article regarding players value interesting.

 

[DarkKnight]

In the short-term. In the long-term, when MK signs with another team in the summer, it will turn into a terrible trade for Carolina.

Ain’t happening, they didn’t make this trade to let him walk, he gets paid.

 

[Zybalto]

Honestly, not saying lesser comp is not a thing or won’t affect a player’s performance but 100pts is 100pts, or 50 goals is 50 goals regardless of how and whom you scored those goals.

I do find these article regarding players value interesting.

Heres some interesting stats:

Non empty net situation goals/points this season:
Rantanen: 18 goals, 47 points
MacKinnon: 15 goals, 54 points
Marner: 12 goals, 58 points

Considering his numbers are not great away from Mac and hes less than stellar defensively too, theres a lot of red flags with Rantanen for me to commit 14 million, thats for sure. Marner playing a ton without Matthews and not having a Makar either is having the more impressive season IMO.

 

[hullsy47]

Ain’t happening, they didn’t make this trade to let him walk, he gets paid.

The very wotdt thing is l9sing the player for nothing
Same with marner he is thitd best on the team
Even to sell tickets he just has to show he wants to stay

 

[PromisedLand]

Am I discounting that fact? When did I? I'm well aware of that. Also, Rantanen was their top scoring forward in their cup run... now he's gone.

Leafs do need to be more aggressive. Not sure doing what the Avs did would help the Leafs this season though. The time to make big changes was the last few off-seasons but even with a new GM the motto is the same. We can't even make a simple off-season trade.

I'm with all of you about cap allocation and making changes. I'm not sure I understand why people would want to essentially give away Marner at this point of the season. We might as well just take a shot at the cup with our best players... if it falters again, then we can only hope they finally do something, for better or worse.

Marner has been one of the main culprits in Leafs sucking in the playoffs because he givesaway the puck at a bad time or plays like a softie some example below:

here are some "nuggets: from Marner in clinching or momentum swinging games

Game 7 against habs - offensive zone turnover by marner when game was tied 0-0 (I can list many STUPID plays by marner in the habs series if you want)


Game 6 against bolts in OT (first time around) - stupid pass AND then STUPID DEFENSE (again could list many STUPID plays by marner if you want including Game 7)


Game 2 against Florida Leafs had a 2-0 lead and then Marner being a complete buffoon (at 1:50 mark). He was essentially a GHOST against Florida. Completely invisible!


Game 7 against Bruins this year (I could add others from the Boston series where he was complete ASS)

And ofcourse Game 7 OT Marner being a complete ASS as Pasta skates by him.


some articles you might find interesting

Thoughts after Toronto's Game 3 loss: Go to the net, Mitch

After Toronto's Game 3 loss at home to Boston, Justin Bourne shares his takeaways from the game, including how to get Mitch Marner going, why TJ Brodie should draw into the lineup, and more.

www.sportsnet.ca

Mitch Marner criticized for pulling away from a hit during puck chase

Toronto Maple Leafs star forward Mitch Marner is being criticized for how he's playing in the playoffs. See what people are saying about his effort this season.

www.hockeypatrol.com

Sure if you want to play the year out with marner go ahead I mean he has full control of the contract anyway. But in the summer IF Leafs bring him back with 12+ AAV expect more of the same given historical evidence AND no cap left for quality depth. We will be stuck in mediocrity unless there is some unforeseen universal cosmic magic that turns marner into a force in the playoffs.

 

[ACC1224]

The very wotdt thing is l9sing the player for nothing
Same with marner he is thitd best on the team
Even to sell tickets he just has to show he wants to stay

Now he’s third best
Man the stuff you read here daily.

 

[Stephen]

Why are you discounting the fact that Avs have recently won a cup and have had more than 1 round wins multiple times and have also had conference final finishes. Sure they found a Makar but they were able to add to their team because of cap flexibility to have decent multiple chances at the cup.

Only way Leafs to have success while rolling with ridiculous high AAV for Matthews, Marner and Nylander is for them to play on different lines and make their line mates productive i.e. create our own quality depth. If they can't do that then one of them have gotta go so we can add quality pieces for depth scoring in playoffs.

If the goal is to win the CUP then somethings gotta give. We can't continue to roll with the same bullshit philosophy we've had for the last 7 years.

Not sure about everyone else but I'd like to see Leafs win the cup before I am 6 feet under....

I don't like the direction for Colorado. Moving off Rantanen, spreading the money around for more depth doesn't feel like the right answer and reinforces the superstar model for me...

One key difference between Colorado and Toronto in their decision making is they are post championship. We've seen time and again in different sports that once you win, sometimes management starts looking for the next thing and shakes things up unnecessarily. Remember when St. Louis was hell bent on letting Alex Pietrangelo go? They are in a different mindset.

 

[Stringer Bell]

Cap. Percentage.

The cap percentage thing annoys me a bit. Budgets go up for departments all the time, they don't just hire people for way more than they're worth. Cap going up should be an opportunity for teams to spread the money around a bit differently, not just allocate more to certain players. It shouldn't need to be linear - cap goes up, percentage of signing a similar player goes up. It should also be variable.

 

[SprDaVE]

The cap percentage thing annoys me a bit. Budgets go up for departments all the time, they don't just hire people for way more than they're worth.

Comparing a sports roster with a salary cap to a company is quite a bit different in a lot of different ways.

I'm not going to pretend to be a capologist and a financial wizard by any means, but it's typically how rosters are built and how contracts are negotiated for big players.

 

[PromisedLand]

I don't like the direction for Colorado. Moving off Rantanen, spreading the money around for more depth doesn't feel like the right answer and reinforces the superstar model for me...

One key difference between Colorado and Toronto in their decision making is they are post championship. We've seen time and again in different sports that once you win, sometimes management starts looking for the next thing and shakes things up unnecessarily. Remember when St. Louis was hell bent on letting Alex Pietrangelo go? They are in a different mindset.

I think Avs' move shows some long term planning. They are not expecting immediate turn around for the team. Like you said, they've had their cup. They just didn't want to give Rantanen 14+ AAV he is seeking and be stuck with that cap hit for long term while Makar's new negotiation would be up too.

My guess is that Avs are planning a mini re-tool and then in a year or two from now would be back contending until Mack is old and then they will do a full rebuild.

Bottom line is that they've got their cup. I wish Leafs could win the CUP too and then they can offer whatever aav to whoever I wouldn't care

 

[DarkKnight]

Now he’s third best
Man the stuff you read here daily.

Fourth in the league in scoring, third best on his team lol. Only here!

 

[Stringer Bell]

Comparing a sports roster with a salary cap to a company is quite a bit different in a lot of different ways.

I'm not going to pretend to be a capologist and a financial wizard by any means, but it's typically how rosters are built and how contracts are negotiated for big players.

I get that, but to me it's crazy that Marner should make more than Matthews a year or so later simply because the cap went up. with that logic it makes more sense that everyone gets a raise based on the percentage the cap goes up. Years later? Sure.

 

[SprDaVE]

I get that, but to me it's crazy that Marner should make more than Matthews a year or so later simply because the cap went up. with that logic it makes more sense that everyone gets a raise based on the percentage the cap goes up. Years later? Sure.

I don't know if he'll make more to be honest, but it also depends on the term (Matthews got 4 years vs potentially 8 years for Marner). I'd wait to see what he signs for before assuming he'll want or get more than Matthews from the Leafs. He'll definitely make a good chunk of coin regardless.

 

[GoonieFace]

In the short-term. In the long-term, when MK signs with another team in the summer, it will turn into a terrible trade for Carolina.

They only traded an extra year of Necas and a decent player in Drury. Not a huge deal considering teams give up 1st rd picks at the deadline for mediocre rentals. This is one of the best wingers in the league, plus they have extra time to negotiate

 

[Evilhomer]

They only traded an extra year of Necas and a decent player in Drury. Not a huge deal considering teams give up 1st rd picks at the deadline for mediocre rentals. This is one of the best wingers in the league, plus they have extra time to negotiate

I agree that if Carolina resigns MR it will be a good trade. But I don't think that will happen. Why would he not do exactly what Guentzel did and test free agency?