Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[francis246]

Saying the best RW is not really relevant when discussing if he was worth this contract. You have to compare him to all positions, and he was not even the best winger.

He never broke 100 points once over that time frame, or ever, and while I realize some of that is due to injuries, he’s still getting paid for the whole season so reliability counts.

He’s never won any major award. He’s terrible in the playoffs. I’m sorry, a few really good partial seasons with no major awards while stapled to an MVP calibre Center is just not worth a top 5 contract in the league and hasn’t been over the last 6 years.

I truly don’t understand why everyone wants to rush and get this guy signed. I’ll be more than happy to pay him if he proves he can do it in the playoffs, but zero point in doing it before.

Correction Marner has won 3 major NHL awards.. NHL All Rookie Team in 2017 and 2x NHL First All Star Team in 2021 and 2022. So he’s won awards as those are considered major awards. But he has yet to win a major individual trophy.

I’m not in a hurry to sign Marner, but I’m also not in a hurry to punt a guy of his calibre out the door for nothing. It’s not that black and white in my opinion. For example a lot of people want to get rid of Marner to bring in Bennett. what the hell is Bennett gonna do on the leafs? They aren’t built like Florida so his effectiveness probably won’t be the same. Hell he barely scores for Florida right now.

My worry isn’t so much about letting Marner go, it’s that our GM’s/pro scouting staff haven’t proven that they are exceptional on July 1st. So arming them with 22 mill and expecting them to make no mistakes is silly IMO. I’m trying to think rationally.

We already struggle for offense and we want to punt a 90 point guy and get a bunch of 30/40 guys at the best and Hope combined they not only replace Marner’s offense but bring other elements to make us successful. It’s not far fetched or out of reach but it’s a tall task for any GM. I’m not sure you’d find a GM in the league that would openly say they that would agree with that strategy.

 

[Mess]

Outside the Montreal series, which one has been embarassing? Disappointing sure.

Marner went 18 playoff games without a goal spanning 3 playoff years and series as Leafs lost to Boston, CBJ and Montreal and in the 1st round.

18 games is almost the equivalent of 1/4 an NHL season without a goal.

For me the Columbus series with the Leafs heavy favourites and not even making out of the round of 24 playoff play-in round and top 16 to move on was embarrassing for Marner and the team.

 

[Hallonbroder]

Nah I don’t want that. Your posts just have me losing brain cells honestly, jokes are terrible, and have not provided anything of substance to any conversation.

I think I have like one other person on ignore.. I don’t even have antro on ignore who I disagree with basically on everything.

I gott a say - the arguments being thrown around have basically been the same for weeks now; one side doesn’t want them to sign Marner before the playoffs and understands that this core doesn’t work. The other side plugs their fingers into their ears and pretend that everything is “bon”, being totally fine with going with the same core after 9 years of nothing.

I’m on the side of - how can die hard fans of the biggest team in the world be so content with the status quo?

 

[GoonieFace]

Marner went 18 playoff games without a goal spanning 3 playoff years and series as Leafs lost to Boston, CBJ and Montreal and in the 1st round.

18 games is almost the equivalent of 1/4 an NHL season without a goal.

For me the Columbus series with the Leafs heavy favourites and not even making out of the round of 24 playoff play-in round and top 16 to move on was embarrassing for Marner and the team.

Yeah but he’s been good in the playoffs and is better than Rantanen

 

[francis246]

Saying the best RW is not really relevant when discussing if he was worth this contract. You have to compare him to all positions, and he was not even the best winger.

He never broke 100 points once over that time frame, or ever, and while I realize some of that is due to injuries, he’s still getting paid for the whole season so reliability counts.

He’s never won any major award. He’s terrible in the playoffs. I’m sorry, a few really good partial seasons with no major awards while stapled to an MVP calibre Center is just not worth a top 5 contract in the league and hasn’t been over the last 6 years.

I truly don’t understand why everyone wants to rush and get this guy signed. I’ll be more than happy to pay him if he proves he can do it in the playoffs, but zero point in doing it before.

I know you also didn’t call him this, but I do love how the narrative of Marner is a selfish guy. I do recall him sacrificing the opportunity to get 100 points in order to get ready for the playoffs and put the team first. Whilst another guy pushed for 70 goals and got hurt and with that put the team in a tough spot. Same with Nylander lol who pushed for 100 and got injured.

 

[Dekes For Days]

And you won’t get it by overvaluing playmaking like the leafs have currently done over the past few years. Marner has not been worth his 11M in any year except maybe this one (so far).

Or by overpaying for it.

We haven't overvalued/overpaid for it. At least not with Marner. Marner has been worth his 10.9m every year.

Primary assists are worth the same as goals? Come on man, you can’t honestly believe that. There is zero support for that and the most basic application of logic could prove that wrong.

Pretty much everything that looks into the value of different point types agree that goals and primary assists are pretty similar value, and secondary assists hold less but still some value. It also makes a lot of logical sense, as obviously a lot more than just the shooting action itself determines goals.

So if I go through you posting-history, I won’t find any kind of “chest-bumbing” over having a Rocket-winner on the Leafs these days eh?

I don't know what "chest-bumbing" is. You'd probably find posts of me being happy that he won a rocket because it's a fun thing, but you'd also find posts noting that they're just silly pieces of metal, and what's actually important is the reason behind why he ended up getting the trophies - the fact that he's the best goal scorer in the world.

Also, if that’s the only trophy that matters, why are you writing the things you are?

I am writing the things I am because that's the only trophy that matters.

 

[Jojalu]

Marner went 18 playoff games without a goal spanning 3 playoff years and series as Leafs lost to Boston, CBJ and Montreal and in the 1st round.

18 games is almost the equivalent of 1/4 an NHL season without a goal.

For me the Columbus series with the Leafs heavy favourites and not even making out of the round of 24 playoff play-in round and top 16 to move on was embarrassing for Marner and the team.

I am torn on that. They were not really heavy favourites although I did believe they would win. You could count that.

 

[francis246]

I gott a say - the arguments being thrown around have basically been the same for weeks now; one side doesn’t want them to sign Marner before the playoffs and understands that this core doesn’t work. The other side plugs their fingers into their ears and pretend that everything is “bon”, being totally fine with going with the same core after 9 years of nothing.

I’m on the side of - how can die hard fans of the biggest team in the world be so content with the status quo?

I’ve said it 100 times. It’s not black and white. I haven’t always been happy with the core. I would have happily entertained a Marner or Nylander trade after the Montreal series. Hell even after Columbus and certainly after Florida. I think that was the ONLY way to make effective change that was a little more risk adverse and doesn’t expose the team to being significantly worse. It was also probably better asset management.

Now the leafs are screwed. I think letting Marner walk for nothing would be a huge mistake. I don’t think this years UFA market has the players needed to make the gamble worth it and at this time we don’t have the assets to acquire a young RFA player with the cap space we might have. So when I do those calculations the best option is to keep him. My hope is we get Marner on a deal like Rantanen’s or Pastrnak’s where there is some limited trade protection so he can still be moved at a later time for assets.

 

[GoonieFace]

Notable playoff choker( at least what some here called him) Matthew Tkachuk had 11 goals one playoff, the same as Marner has in his entire 8 year playoff career (20 games vs 57 games)

 

[francis246]

Notable playoff choker( at least what some here called him) Matthew Tkachuk had 11 goals one playoff, the same as Marner has in his entire 8 year playoff career (20 games vs 57 games)

Tkachuk is really overrated as this prototype playoff player. Couldn’t do shit in Calgary. Forced a trade to the best team In the NHL and was carried in the playoffs last year. He didn’t score a goal in like the last 9 or 10 games of the playoffs and took some boneheaded penalties that allowed Edmonton back in the series.

Verhaghe and Reinhart were much more productive and were the heart beat of Florida’s win if we are being really honest with ourselves.

 

[arso40]

Tkachuk is really overrated as this prototype playoff player. Couldn’t do shit in Calgary. Forced a trade to the best team In the NHL and was carried in the playoffs last year. He didn’t score a goal in like the last 9 or 10 games of the playoffs and took some boneheaded penalties that allowed Edmonton back in the series.

Verhaghe and Reinhart were much more productive and were the heart beat of Florida’s win if we are being really honest with ourselves.

Heartbeat? Your joking right ?

 

[francis246]

Heartbeat? Your joking right ?

Tkachuk had 6 goals..

Verhaghe had 11 goals, 21 points in 24 games

Sam Reinhart had 10 goals in the playoffs in addition to the 57 he put up in the regular season.

Goals are more valuable than assists right? Or is that only applicable to magic Mitch? Yup that’s what I thought.

With out Verhaghe and Reinhart Florida ain’t doing shit in the playoffs. Both those guys were 1 and 2 in goals for their team.
They scored huge goals.

You can add Barkov as well. Those 3 really drove the bus for the panthers.

 

[GoonieFace]

Tkachuk is really overrated as this prototype playoff player. Couldn’t do shit in Calgary. Forced a trade to the best team In the NHL and was carried in the playoffs last year. He didn’t score a goal in like the last 9 or 10 games of the playoffs and took some boneheaded penalties that allowed Edmonton back in the series.

Verhaghe and Reinhart were much more productive and were the heart beat of Florida’s win if we are being really honest with ourselves.

So we can nitpick when he scored these goals etc, but we can’t do it for Mitch?

11 goals in 20 games one playoff season. Marner 11 goals entire playoff career.

 

[francis246]

So we can nitpick when he scored these goals etc, but we can’t do it for Mitch?

11 goals in 20 games one playoff season. Marner 11 goals entire playoff career.

Absolutely you can. But I don’t know why we are pointing to him as this model player everyone should love. He’s a rat. The guy quit on the team that drafted him cause he couldn’t win there. And he legit left cause he wanted more money. So he’s a selfish person. He’s everything people claim Marner is but just a more physical version.

Hell of a player though.

 

[arso40]

Tkachuk had 6 goals..

Verhaghe had 11 goals, 21 points in 24 games

Sam Reinhart had 10 goals in the playoffs in addition to the 57 he put up in the regular season.

Goals are more valuable than assists right? Or is that only applicable to magic Mitch? Yup that’s what I thought.

With out Verhaghe and Reinhart Florida ain’t doing shit in the playoffs. Both those guys were 1 and 2 in goals for their team.
They scored huge goals.

You can add Barkov as well. Those 3 really drove the bus for the panthers.

Chuccy game is way more than points he throws your best players off he’s the heartbeat of that Team make no mistake

 

[francis246]

Chuccy game is way more than points he throws your best players off he’s the heartbeat of that Team make no mistake

Ohhhh shit! So things outside of points actually do matter?!

Well damn! consider me fooled! Could have sworn the narrative in here is that extra stuff is overrated. Idk I must not be remembering correctly.


* I hope you bookmark this journey for the next time someone says Marner can be considered the heart of the team hahaha. Which I’ve seen posted a couple times in this thread.

 

[leafs in five]

@leafs in five that is a great option when someone just wants everyone to agree with oneself

I just want you to choose between earnest opinionating and sarcastic praise as mockery of players you dislike

 

[Hallonbroder]

I know you also didn’t call him this, but I do love how the narrative of Marner is a selfish guy. I do recall him sacrificing the opportunity to get 100 points in order to get ready for the playoffs and put the team first. Whilst another guy pushed for 70 goals and got hurt and with that put the team in a tough spot. Same with Nylander lol who pushed for 100 and got injured.

Where’s your source for this? When did he say that he did that intentionally?

Also - yeah, if there’s a scale of selfish <=> puts the team first, Marner leans more to the left than the others, or at least as much

 

[Hallonbroder]

We haven't overvalued/overpaid for it. At least not with Marner. Marner has been worth his 10.9m every year.

Pretty much everything that looks into the value of different point types agree that goals and primary assists are pretty similar value, and secondary assists hold less but still some value. It also makes a lot of logical sense, as obviously a lot more than just the shooting action itself determines goals.

I don't know what "chest-bumbing" is. You'd probably find posts of me being happy that he won a rocket because it's a fun thing, but you'd also find posts noting that they're just silly pieces of metal, and what's actually important is the reason behind why he ended up getting the trophies - the fact that he's the best goal scorer in the world.

I am writing the things I am because that's the only trophy that matters.

Ok, that last part - you think Marners been living up to his contract, but at the same time, he and this core have not even been close to the only trophy that matters to you. How does that work?

 

[francis246]

Where’s your source for this? When did he say that he did that intentionally?

Also - yeah, if there’s a scale of selfish <=> puts the team first, Marner leans more to the right than the others, or at least as much

2022/23 Mitch and Sheldon both spoke to the media and they talked about why they felt it was beneficial for Mitch to be a healthy scratch for the last game of the season. They both referenced him missing out on 100 points. He was scratched to keep him fresh for the playoffs it was a back to back. He was sitting on 99 points and still agreed to be scratched. I’m sure many can verify and back me up on this or let me know if I’m incorrect.

 

[GoonieFace]

Absolutely you can. But I don’t know why we are pointing to him as this model player everyone should love. He’s a rat. The guy quit on the team that drafted him cause he couldn’t win there. And he legit left cause he wanted more money. So he’s a selfish person. He’s everything people claim Marner is but just a more physical version.

Hell of a player though.

I don’t know the Tkachuk situation but I imagine he wanted out of Canada. He held them for ransom which is definitely a douche move.

I know you haven’t said it specifically, but I was just referring to the mental gymnastics performed by people here to say Marner is a better player than Rantanen, and better in the playoffs than Tkachuk the choke artist.

 

[Hallonbroder]

2022/23 Mitch and Sheldon both spoke to the media and they talked about why they felt it was beneficial for Mitch to be a healthy scratch for the last game of the season. They both referenced him missing out on 100 points. He was scratched to keep him fresh for the playoffs it was a back to back. He was sitting on 99 points and still agreed to be scratched. I’m sure many can verify and back me up on this or let me know if I’m incorrect.

Thanks, I did not know that

 

[Dekes For Days]

Ok, that last part - you think Marners been living up to his contract, but at the same time, he and this core have not even been close to the only trophy that matters to you. How does that work?

Having Marner isn't the reason that we haven't won a cup, and keeping Marner is our best chance at a cup.

 

[arso40]

Ohhhh shit! So things outside of points actually do matter?!

Well damn! consider me fooled! Could have sworn the narrative in here is that extra stuff is overrated. Idk I must not be remembering correctly.


* I hope you bookmark this journey for the next time someone says Marner can be considered the heart of the team hahaha. Which I’ve seen posted a couple times in this thread.

Marner can be seen as the heart of the team hence we haven’t gone anywhere do you remember how chuccy had marner rattled ? Your playing against your friend and your terrified

 

[francis246]

I don’t know the Tkachuk situation but I imagine he wanted out of Canada. He held them for ransom which is definitely a douche move.

I know you haven’t said it specifically, but I was just referring to the mental gymnastics performed by people here to say Marner is a better player than Rantanen, and better in the playoffs than Tkachuk the choke artist.

I can’t help anyone who thinks Marner has been better than Rantanen. That’s just false. We also can’t argue Tkachuk numbers especially the year the lost and playing with a broken chest essentially.

I do think sometimes the lack of team success bleeds over onto Marner’s shoulders unfairly. But it comes with the cap hit. I think Montreal was really the worst because if he gives us a goal we win that series.