Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[Gary Nylund]

to one of the forensic breakdowns of goal contribution by degree of difficulty

Cool, I'll bring the bourbon.

BTW, I had an idea the other day. There's been discussion about the relative value of goals vs assists. Most seem to agree that goals are worth more, but how much more? I think goals being worth 2 points while assists are worth 1 point is too much, so what's the right number?

What if we simply look at the total number of assists awarded on average per goal, and use that number? So if on average there is 1.5 assists given out per goal, then goals are worth 1.5 assists. Seems logical, am I missing anything?

 

[francis246]

I hope you're right, but I doubt that Marner takes his cues from Rantanen.

Where are we going?

I'm not mad after every bad performance, but I am disappointed after every bad playoff series performance. Is that OK, or should be happy and trumpet my belief in the core every time they disappoint?

I could see Marner pulling a Stamkos the first time he went to UFA. Test the market to see what’s out there but end up resigning.


Up to you how you want to process losses. I’m just saying for me, useless to dwell on something I actually know I can’t control or don’t actually have a say in.

 

[Mess]

the balls completely in Marners court and he 100 percent already has an offer from the leafs.

You can look at Trelivings track record or the leafs organization to see they are going to offer him a top contract, Above Nylander.

Treliving is a good GM therefore I also believe the Leafs have already offered him an extension contract.

However its Marner's GREED & EGO that is preventing him from already being signed. IMO

I think with the Salary Cap rising +$5 mil this current season, and also projected for another $5-5.5 mil next year, & combined with the Tavares expected salary reduction only makes business sense that if the Leafs can get Marner at a price point they're comfortable with, they would re-sign him.

I personally want Marner to deliver come playoff time BEFORE the Leafs commit long-term as his playoff performance this season would weigh heavily on the amount and term he would deserve,

 

[Gary Nylund]

I could see Marner pulling a Stamkos the first time he went to UFA. Test the market to see what’s out there but end up resigning.

Up to you how you want to process losses. I’m just saying for me, useless to dwell on something I actually know I can’t control or don’t actually have a say in.

Anything could happen of course, anyone who claims to know what will happen is just wrong IMO. I think Marner will be signed before the playoffs but I hope I'm wrong as well. What I would love to see is Ranta replacing Marner in our lineup for next season, here's hoping.

Up to you - I couldn't agree more. It's been years since I got too up or down about any regular season game but it shouldn't bother anyone if others get upset or want to celebrate. Playoffs is where I get much more emotionally involved/invested, I think that's pretty common.

My regular season apathy is at an all-time high, I feel like that's not uncommon either after so many years of playoff failure. Some people get so excited every time Marner completes a pass that they have to storm in here and let the world know, that's fine too though there comes a point where people like me feel like posting some playoff numbers to remind people that Marner's not quite godlike for the sake of balance.

 

[ToneDog]

Treliving is a good GM therefore I also believe the Leafs have already offered him an extension contract.

However its Marner's GREED & EGO that is preventing him from already being signed. IMO

I think with the Salary Cap rising +$5 mil this current season, and also projected for another $5-5.5 mil next year, & combined with the Tavares expected salary reduction only makes business sense that if the Leafs can get Marner at a price point they're comfortable with, they would re-sign him.

I personally want Marner to deliver come playoff time BEFORE the Leafs commit long-term as his playoff performance this season would weigh heavily on the amount and term he would deserve,

This is how Ferris is making Marner out to be to some of the fan base. Wrong strategy for a guy who bent Dubas over the last time and shit his pants most of the next 6 playoff series. The fans will eat him alive this summer if there is a repeat of the past two playoffs.

 

[francis246]

Treliving is a good GM therefore I also believe the Leafs have already offered him an extension contract.

However its Marner's GREED & EGO that is preventing him from already being signed. IMO

I think with the Salary Cap rising +$5 mil this current season, and also projected for another $5-5.5 mil next year, & combined with the Tavares expected salary reduction only makes business sense that if the Leafs can get Marner at a price point they're comfortable with, they would re-sign him.

I personally want Marner to deliver come playoff time BEFORE the Leafs commit long-term as his playoff performance this season would weigh heavily on the amount and term he would deserve,

Oh my, save us the righteous bullshit. Why are you allowed to post non sense?

Is it John Tavares’s greed and ego that’s making him unsigned? Is it Matthew Knies’ greed and ego? How about Nick Robertson’s? Cause he’s also not under contract for next season. Funny how you apply that logic to one guy and not the rest of the unsigned guys on the team.

It’s a CBA right, they do not have to negotiate, if they don’t want to. There could be a 1000 reasons why he doesn’t want to sign right now. Stop projecting and post logical, good posts.

 

[Mess]

Some think he could leave if he is not locked up.

There is a well known proverb..

“If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it's yours. If not, it was never meant to be”​

I personally suspect that those Leaf fans that want him re-signed now, fear the possibility he chokes again come playoff time, and with another embarrassing and disappointing post season the organization will see the light and move on. If he delivers another 1 goal 2 assist 3 point in 7 game performance and Leafs early out, (mimicking last year), then there will be a great uprising of Leaf Nation wanting change at his expense.

There is no real fear that Marner is waiting until UFA status so he can flee Toronto. His first choice is always to remain a Leaf.

Maybe this year will be different and it will be a WIN - WIN for both player and team, and Marner carries his exceptional regular season into the playoffs, and helps lead the Leafs to a long playoff run, and in turn is rewarded financially and locked up long-term.

I'm in the prove it camp first, then get paid for playoff performance.

 

[ACC1224]

Oh my, save us the righteous bullshit. Why are you allowed to post non sense?

Is it John Tavares’s greed and ego that’s making him unsigned? Is it Matthew Knies’ greed and ego? How about Nick Robertson’s? Cause he’s also not under contract for next season. Funny how you apply that logic to one guy and not the rest of the unsigned guys on the team.

It’s a CBA right, they do not have to negotiate, if they don’t want to. There could be a 1000 reasons why he doesn’t want to sign right now. Stop projecting and post logical, good posts.

Logic has always been in short supply in these threads.

 

[Stringer Bell]

This post above is getting lots of likes. I'd like to see some people build a good case against it for my own curiosity.

@ACC1224

Logic has always been in short supply in these threads.

That's your subjective opinion, no?

 

[francis246]

Anything could happen of course, anyone who claims to know what will happen is just wrong IMO. I think Marner will be signed before the playoffs but I hope I'm wrong as well. What I would love to see is Ranta replacing Marner in our lineup for next season, here's hoping.

Up to you - I couldn't agree more. It's been years since I got too up or down about any regular season game but it shouldn't bother anyone if others get upset or want to celebrate. Playoffs is where I get much more emotionally involved/invested, I think that's pretty common.

My regular season apathy is at an all-time high, I feel like that's not uncommon either after so many years of playoff failure. Some people get so excited every time Marner completes a pass that they have to storm in here and let the world know, that's fine too though there comes a point where people like me feel like posting some playoff numbers to remind people that Marner's not quite godlike for the sake of balance.

Tbh the excitement about passes is complete sarcasm and you should be able to see through that. Those posts started because a poster feels it’s necessary to clip screen shots of YouTube videos (like anyone gives a shit honestly) immediately after every leafs game and try’s to bury Marner irrationally. So it was to poke fun at the fact that Marner could have a great game but someone will come in here saying Marners pass through traffic wasn’t as good as Jake McCabes through traffic. It’s nonsense.

For the most part I think posters, like you, ToneDog, Racer, Dark knight, leafsinfive, ACC, thunk, Dekes, a lot of people in these threads daily make fair arguments on both sides. And I don’t think you’re being irrational most of the time haha. But ya a lot of those posts are probably just poking fun at the irrational posts that are made following games.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This is how Ferris is making Marner out to be to some of the fan base.

No those individuals are choosing to be wrong all on their own. Lots of pending UFAs are still unsigned. We don't know why Marner is unsigned, and it's not greed and ego to want to be paid what you've earned at your job like everybody else.

 

[francis246]

@ACC1224



That's your subjective opinion, no?

I mean do you agree with Mess’ post? Cause to me that’s a projection. Is the ONLY reason Marner isn’t signed because he’s greedy? Or could there be other factors at play? Like maybe he just wants to see how the year goes? Or contract talk is legit a distraction for him?

 

[Stringer Bell]

I mean do you agree with Mess’ post? Cause to me that’s a projection. Is the ONLY reason Marner isn’t signed because he’s greedy? Or could there be other factors at play? Like maybe he just wants to see how the year goes? Or contract talk is legit a distraction for him?

It might be projection. I try not to speak in absolutes, so I agree it's definitely possible that he wants to see how the year goes or that contract talk is a legit distraction (although his agent would do most of the talk).

But if I'm thinking about what's most likely? His agent has provided a number that he would sign. Treliving has provided a number that we would sign. And there is simply a gap...where if we met the number his agent has given today he would sign.

 

[francis246]

It might be projection. I try not to speak in absolutes, so I agree it's definitely possible that he wants to see how the year goes or that contract talk is a legit distraction (although his agent would do most of the talk).

But if I'm thinking about what's most likely? His agent has provided a number that he would sign. Treliving has provided a number that we would sign. And there is simply a gap...where if we met the number his agent has given today he would sign.

It’s true it could be the number. I think it’s most likely waiting on other players and the salary cap. We also have to remember that both sides play the media. We can’t just take the reports of the leafs offering a contract and being ready to sign him as absolute truth either. Teams have to also win the PR battle. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. They probably have a number they both like, but they are waiting on the right time to ink the deal. Probably a time that doesn’t put too much heat on the organization and Mitch. But that’s just my opinion I could be wrong of course.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Tbh the excitement about passes is complete sarcasm and you should be able to see through that. Those posts started because a poster feels it’s necessary to clip screen shots of YouTube videos (like anyone gives a shit honestly) immediately after every leafs game and try’s to bury Marner irrationally. So it was to poke fun at the fact that Marner could have a great game but someone will come in here saying Marners pass through traffic wasn’t as good as Jake McCabes through traffic. It’s nonsense.

For the most part I think posters, like you, ToneDog, Racer, Dark knight, leafsinfive, ACC, thunk, Dekes, a lot of people in these threads daily make fair arguments on both sides. And I don’t think you’re being irrational most of the time haha. But ya a lot of those posts are probably just poking fun at the irrational posts that are made following games.

Sure, there's a fair bit of this on both sides - posting nonsense just to trigger people. I'm used to it by now and there's still some good insight posted from time to time, it's just unfortunate that most of the posts are just noise but whatever, it is what it is.

The other day, Marner made a good pass to set up a goal at the end of a period and I came here when the intermission started to praise him so I'm guilty of this as well.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

it's a shame that the booing Marner until he asks for a trade plan hatched in here over the summer didn't pan out

Wait for the playoffs and see what happens.

Tbh the excitement about passes is complete sarcasm and you should be able to see through that. Those posts started because a poster feels it’s necessary to clip screen shots of YouTube videos (like anyone gives a shit honestly) immediately after every leafs game and try’s to bury Marner irrationally. So it was to poke fun at the fact that Marner could have a great game but someone will come in here saying Marners pass through traffic wasn’t as good as Jake McCabes through traffic. It’s nonsense.

For the most part I think posters, like you, ToneDog, Racer, Dark knight, leafsinfive, ACC, thunk, Dekes, a lot of people in these threads daily make fair arguments on both sides. And I don’t think you’re being irrational most of the time haha. But ya a lot of those posts are probably just poking fun at the irrational posts that are made following games.

Probably why they turned the video playback feature off... you can't see YouTube videos on here anymore.

 

[GoonieFace]

Cool, I'll bring the bourbon.

BTW, I had an idea the other day. There's been discussion about the relative value of goals vs assists. Most seem to agree that goals are worth more, but how much more? I think goals being worth 2 points while assists are worth 1 point is too much, so what's the right number?

What if we simply look at the total number of assists awarded on average per goal, and use that number? So if on average there is 1.5 assists given out per goal, then goals are worth 1.5 assists. Seems logical, am I missing anything?

You can score goals without assists, but you can’t get assists without a goal. Goals are always going to be more valuable, and the way they hand out assists in the NHL, I can see why.

Marner has 15 goals so far this year. 6 at even strength which ranks him 215th in the NHL. I get he has a ton of points, but goals matter

 

[Gary Nylund]

It might be projection. I try not to speak in absolutes, so I agree it's definitely possible that he wants to see how the year goes or that contract talk is a legit distraction (although his agent would do most of the talk).

But if I'm thinking about what's most likely? His agent has provided a number that he would sign. Treliving has provided a number that we would sign. And there is simply a gap...where if we met the number his agent has given today he would sign.

I suspect this exactly what's happening. Can't know for sure but it has been speculated that the Leafs are offering ~13m, and Marner is asking for ~14. With all the context we have, it wouldn't be surprising if this is 100% true. If it is, then I'm comfortable saying that Marner is not just a greedy pig, but one of the greediest pigs in NHL history but since it's all speculation, I won't say anything until we know for sure.

 

[francis246]

Sure, there's a fair bit of this on both sides - posting nonsense just to trigger people. I'm used to it by now and there's still some good insight posted from time to time, it's just unfortunate that most of the posts are just noise but whatever, it is what it is.

The other day, Marner made a good pass to set up a goal at the end of a period and I came here when the intermission started to praise him so I'm guilty of this as well.

It’s what makes us the greatest fan base and the one everyone laughs at. The passion manifests in many ways. I’m sure one day when they win again, many of us will be on here arguing about how the offseason should go and who didn’t contribute enough haha.

At the end of the day we can all agree on a few things.

Is Marner talented? Yes,

Should we be scared of change if things fail again this year? No (this is something I’m coming around to more.. I worry about us overspending on UFA’s I rather take the cap space and acquire young players teams are ready to give up on I.E. Cozens or Krebs for example, than blow it all on UFA’s)

I am a big believer in retaining talent but in this case of the leafs we would have had 9 years of evidence that it doesn’t work, so I’d be more supportive of change. Though, I hate that letting him walk is the only option available now.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Logic has always been in short supply in these threads.

Useless posts like this on the other hand are plentiful.

 

[sunstersun]

I hope Marner sticks with his 14mil demand and the Leafs stick with their 13 mil demand.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You can score goals without assists, but you can’t get assists without a goal. Goals are always going to be more valuable, and the way they hand out assists in the NHL, I can see why. Marner has 15 goals so far this year. 6 at even strength which ranks him 215th in the NHL. I get he has a ton of points, but goals matter

Primary assists are just as valuable, and Marner leads the league in primary assists. 6 goals at 5v5 is actually 171st, not 215th (and to give perspective on spread, 1 more goal would be +40 rankings). Players with equal or fewer 5v5 goals this season include M. Tkachuk, B. Tkachuk, Crosby, Malkin, Aho, Konecny, Barkov, etc.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I hope Marner sticks with his 14mil demand and the Leafs stick with their 13 mil demand.

If they've offered 13 then I hope they stand firm no matter what Marner does. I've said it before - he's not on the same tier as Matthews, period.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Has a singles hitter ever gotten Ohtani, Soto, Judge, Harper money? Has a pitcher who throws less than 85 mph every gotten Verlander, Cole money?

I stopped following baseball decades ago, but Pete Rose, Rod Carew, Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, etc., compared to players of their era? Probably.

Oh my, save us the righteous bullshit. Why are you allowed to post non sense?

Is it John Tavares’s greed and ego that’s making him unsigned? Is it Matthew Knies’ greed and ego? How about Nick Robertson’s? Cause he’s also not under contract for next season. Funny how you apply that logic to one guy and not the rest of the unsigned guys on the team.

It’s a CBA right, they do not have to negotiate, if they don’t want to. There could be a 1000 reasons why he doesn’t want to sign right now. Stop projecting and post logical, good posts.

They could also be negotiating right now. No one knows.

 

[GoonieFace]

Primary assists are just as valuable, and Marner leads the league in primary assists. 6 goals at 5v5 is actually 171st, not 215th (and to give perspective on spread, 1 more goal would be +40 rankings). Players with equal or fewer 5v5 goals this season include M. Tkachuk, B. Tkachuk, Crosby, Malkin, Aho, Konecny, Barkov, etc.

I am not diminishing his playmaking abilities. Of those players mentioned, how many are going to make $13mil or more? Most of them also bring many other elements as well and are centres. Also perspective, he has 4 more primary 5v5 assists than Pierre Luc Dubois.