Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[IPS]

I guess, but I'm not sure I follow the logic. Colorado is a worse team today but they get to pound their chest because they kept their salary structure intact? Isn't the idea to assemble the best players you can in order to win? Colorado is farther away from winning now than they were a few hours ago.

As for Carolina, my guess is that they will lose MR to free agency, lose in the second or third round as they always do because they still refuse to upgrade their goaltending, and be left with Taylor Hall. Meanwhile, Vegas will somehow find a way to sign MR on July 1.

Of course you wouldn't get it.

When you start letting players put $$$ over the team your culture goes to shit. Hence the Leafs winning 1 series in 8 years. Sakic ain't having none of this shit with the Avs.

Turns out elite GM's like Sakic do know more than the fans.

 

[ToneDog]

Still laughing my ass off that a properly run organization that's had legitimate success broke the ever-pervading rule of "never trading elite talent".

So we're over here trying to justify that Marner may get more than Matthews cause "salary cap rising bro" and Colorado just goes ahead and punts an even better player out the door cause he's demanding more than their #1C superstar. Rantanen - the winger, they weren't having it for 1 f***ing second letting him compare himself to a #1C.

Mind you must of these saps on the Marner PR crew don't have the first clue about team culture and how important it is anyway.

Add Canes probably having no problem moving Necas, who they had ugly contract negotiations with in the summer. Necas came out of the gate fast and Canes sold high. Who does that shit?

 

[GoonieFace]

Still laughing my ass off that a properly run organization that's had legitimate success broke the ever-pervading rule of "never trading elite talent".

So we're over here trying to justify that Marner may get more than Matthews cause "salary cap rising bro" and Colorado just goes ahead and punts an even better player out the door cause he's demanding more than their #1C superstar. Rantanen - the winger, they weren't having it for 1 f***ing second letting him compare himself to a #1C.

Mind you most of these saps on the Marner PR crew don't have the first clue about team culture and how important it is anyway.

Yeah but Rantanen is a worser player, only benefits from playing with MacKinnon and isn’t an elite defender.

 

[IPS]

Add Canes probably having no problem moving Necas, who they had ugly contract negotiations with in the summer. Necas came out of the gate fast and Canes sold high. Who does that shit?

Teams who have won more than 1 playoff series in 8 years???

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

It's a game of smart team - dumb team

More like smart team - dumb fans.

I don't know about the rest of the greatest fan base in the world. But sometimes I feel like a complete ninny for dedicating so much of my time to following this team. I've been told more times than I can count how dumb I am and it's true.

The only saving grace is watching this team screw itself over in new ways every year can be more entertaining than the actual on ice product.

 

[ToneDog]

I guess, but I'm not sure I follow the logic. Colorado is a worse team today but they get to pound their chest because they kept their salary structure intact? Isn't the idea to assemble the best players you can in order to win? Colorado is farther away from winning now than they were a few hours ago.

As for Carolina, my guess is that they will lose MR to free agency, lose in the second or third round as they always do because they still refuse to upgrade their goaltending, and be left with Taylor Hall. Meanwhile, Vegas will somehow find a way to sign MR on July 1.

They are a WC team and odds are they are not winning the SC this year. Seriously, what were the odds they were getting out of the West having to face Vegas and Dallas? Sakic got a solid return for a pending UFA was going to walk for nothing. Like I said, sometimes you have to take a step back to take two forward. This is a good move for both teams and better if the Canes resign Ranta.

This sure beats running the same losing core back year after year and expecting a different result. Some of this fan base is more afraid of change and makes more excuses for failure than it's chicken shit POHO.

 

[francis246]

Still laughing my ass off that a properly run organization that's had legitimate success broke the ever-pervading rule of "never trading elite talent".

So we're over here trying to justify that Marner may get more than Matthews cause "salary cap rising bro" and Colorado just goes ahead and punts an even better player out the door cause he's demanding more than their #1C superstar. Rantanen - the winger, they weren't having it for 1 f***ing second letting him compare himself to a #1C.

Mind you most of these saps on the Marner PR crew don't have the first clue about team culture and how important it is anyway.

I don’t think Rantanen ever had any intention on resigning. Seemed like things soured over in Colorado about a year ago. There’s some videos of Rantanen yelling at some of the players on the ice. I think there’s been some tension in that locker room for a while, even with Toews comments a while back. Other players also speaking out against MacKinnon’s leadership style. That isn’t happening in Toronto, to our knowledge.

Every situation is different, I think with Rantanen there was a clear disconnect between how he feels the organization should view him and how the organization views him. I think Rantanen feels he’s just as good if not better than MacKinnon and that’s obviously created tension. There’s been a lot of smoke around that throughout the summer and reports saying negotiations were pretty contentious. I’m not sure Marner is trying to be the alpha of the team or establish himself as an alpha. So while there are some comparisons to Marner’s situations and Rantanen’s, it’s not an apples to apples situation. Also factor in one has a limited NTC, the other has a full move.

 

[Bomber0104]

Still laughing my ass off that a properly run organization that's had legitimate success broke the ever-pervading rule of "never trading elite talent".

So we're over here trying to justify that Marner may get more than Matthews cause "salary cap rising bro" and Colorado just goes ahead and punts an even better player out the door cause he's demanding more than their #1C superstar. Rantanen - the winger, they weren't having it for 1 f***ing second letting him compare himself to a #1C.

Mind you most of these saps on the Marner PR crew don't have the first clue about team culture and how important it is anyway.

Yep, unfortunately we have to sit and patiently wait for the rest of the NHL to provide the sanity checks for this fanbase and to realize how gaslit we are into thinking all of these special rules apply to us with our players' contracts, when they really don't elsewhere.

 

[IPS]

I don’t think Rantanen ever had any intention on resigning. Seemed like things soured over in Colorado about a year ago. There’s some videos of Rantanen yelling at some of the players on the ice. I think there’s been some tension in that locker room for a while, even with Toews comments a while back. Other players also speaking out against MacKinnon’s leadership style. That isn’t happening in Toronto, to our knowledge.

Every situation is different, I think with Rantanen there was a clear disconnect between how he feels the organization should view him and how the organization views him. I think Rantanen feels he’s just as good if not better than MacKinnon and that’s obviously created tension. There’s been a lot of smoke around that throughout the summer and reports saying negotiations were pretty contentious. I’m not sure Marner is trying to be the alpha of the team or establish himself as an alpha. So while there are some comparisons to Marner’s situations and Rantanen’s, it’s not an apples to apples situation. Also factor in one has a limited NTC, the other has a full move.

How do you think Rantanen felt watching Marner get $10.9M and he only got $9.25M? The organization squeezed him and blatantly told him flat out they're not using Marner for a comparable because Dubas is a complete dumbass.

So next negotiations come rolling around and yet again they're telling Rantanen that once again he's going to be getting less than his comparables, absolutely less than Mackinnon (Marner will be getting more than Mack), on what should be the most lucrative contract of his life. You can see how the relationship soured. I don't think it's got anything to do with him asserting himself as some "Alpha" or superior to Mackinnon or his teammates.

 

[Evilhomer]

They are a WC team and odds are they are not winning the SC this year. Seriously, what were the odds they were getting out of the West having to face Vegas and Dallas? Sakic got a solid return for a pending UFA was going to walk for nothing. Like I said, sometimes you have to take a step back to take two forward. This is a good move for both teams and better if the Canes resign Ranta.

This sure beats running the same losing core back year after year and expecting a different result. Some of this fan base is more afraid of change and makes more excuses for failure than it's chicken shit POHO.

I'm certainly not afraid of seeing this team make a change (this team's management certainly is), but making a change for the sake of keeping a salary structure intact generally doesn't work.

 

[thewave]

How do you think Rantanen felt watching Marner get $10.9M and he only got $9.25M? The organization squeezed him and blatantly told him flat out they're not using Marner for a comparable because Dubas is a complete dumbass.

So next negotiations come rolling around and yet again they're telling Rantanen that once again he's going to be getting less than his comparables, absolutely less than Mackinnon (Marner will be getting more than Mack), on what should be the most lucrative contract of his life. You can see how the relationship soured. I don't think it's got anything to do with him asserting himself as some "Alpha" or superior to Mackinnon to his teammates.

If we give Marner more than Mack, we have shit for brains at MLSE. No other way to put it.

 

[IPS]

I'm certainly not afraid of seeing this team make a change (this team's management certainly is), but making a change for the sake of keeping a salary structure intact generally doesn't work.

As opposed to this absolutely fantastic model of just paying players whatever they want and having 3 forwards making $11M+ that has garnered so much success???

 

[francis246]

How do you think Rantanen felt watching Marner get $10.9M and he only got $9.25M? The organization squeezed him and blatantly told him flat out they're not using Marner for a comparable because Dubas is a complete dumbass.

So next negotiations come rolling around and yet again they're telling Rantanen that once again he's going to be getting less than his comparables, absolutely less than Mackinnon (Marner will be getting more than Mack), on what should be the most lucrative contract of his life. You can see how the relationship soured. I don't think it's got anything to do with him asserting himself as some "Alpha" or superior to Mackinnon or his teammates.

I’m just going based off what Frank
Servalli or whatever his name has reported. I’m sure not being able to use Marner as a comparable has also played a part into. But Frank said this summer. Rantanen told Colorado he views himself just as good as MacKinnon and he feels he’s deserves to be paid just as much. So take that for what you will. I do think this had more to do with internal cap / comparisons to MacKinnon, as opposed to whatever Marner is making. It’s never been reported that Rantanen used Marner as a comparable. It’s only been reported that the MacKinnon number has always been the threshold.

 

[IPS]

I’m just going based off what Frank
Servalli or whatever his name has reported. I’m sure not being able to use Marner as a comparable has also played a part into. But Frank said this summer. Rantanen told Colorado he views himself just as good as MacKinnon and he feels he’s deserves to be paid just as much. So take that for what you will. I do think this had more to do with internal cap / comparisons compared to whatever Marner is making.

Literally the precise same negotiation tactic Marner used in 2019 claiming this with Matthews, which led to him getting paid significantly more than Rantanen.

Hey if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, eh??

If we give Marner more than Mack, we have shit for brains at MLSE. No other way to put it.

I mean just last week the Marner PR crew was throwing around $13M an assuring us that it it absolutely OK for him to get this because "salary cap rising bro".

Did Rantanen try telling Sakic this? How come Sakic doesn't subscribe to the Marner PR crew logic?

 

[ToneDog]

I'm certainly not afraid of seeing this team make a change (this team's management certainly is), but making a change for the sake of keeping a salary structure intact generally doesn't work.

And giving in to demands of 8 time losers and overpaying by the millions in a cap world does? Many fans on this board keep saying, you can't let a star walk for nothing? Yet, when Sakic avoids that, they do an about face and criticize the move. Mind boggling.

 

[GoonieFace]

You almost have to follow an internal salary structure. Just because the cap increases, this should not automatically be used to pay upcoming free agents on the team, who are now all of a sudden worth more than your “best player”?

The added cap should be used to build depth around your “core” pieces. The cap % is just a sure way to keep handcuffing your team.

 

[francis246]

Literally the precise same negotiation tactic Marner used in 2019 claiming this with Matthews, which led to him getting paid significantly more than Rantanen.

Hey if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, eh??


I mean just last week the Marner PR crew was throwing around $13M an assuring us that it it absolutely OK for him to get this because "salary cap rising bro".

Did Rantanen try telling Sakic this? How come Sakic doesn't subscribe to the Marner PR crew logic?

I think all players learn from each other. And we are probably going to see this more and more as the cap rises. I’ve said it before, comparatively to other athletes NHL players have been paid peanuts and we are gonna see more and more players try to collect the bag now with a new CBA coming up.

I don’t support what Dubas did with any of our RFA’s. He shit the bed. He tried to be innovative and it turned out to be a huge mistake. I get the frustration but the team is handicapped. They all got NMC’s, they didn’t trade them after Florida. So what do you suggest they do now?

I’ve posted before I was fully on board with trading Marner or Nylander after Florida and previous to that Montreal. If Marner had no trade protection I’d also be in support of trading him now to recoup assets. But I’m really against letting good players walk for nothing. I’d be open to it if they shit the bed in the playoffs probably.

And giving in to demands of 8 time losers and overpaying by the millions in a cap world does? Many fans on this board keep saying, you can't let a star walk for nothing? Yet, when Sakic avoids that, they do an about face and criticize the move. Mind boggling.

Jesus Christ, you keep saying the same thing like it matters, but it’s not the same situation. Sakic had the option to move Rantanen we don’t have that option with Marner.

 

[Zybalto]

Current market value for Leafs players in the NHL excluding goalies (via the Athletic):

Matthews: 12.2
Marner: 12.0
Tavares: 10.4
Nylander: 9.2
Tanev: 7.1
McCabe: 6.7
OEL: 5.7
Knies: 5.6
Rielly: 5.0
McMann: 4.9
Domi: 2.9
Timmins: 2.7
Robertson: 2.2
Lorentz: 1.9
Patches: 1.8
Kampf: 1.1
Holmberg: 0.9
Dewar: 0.8
Reaves: 0.8
Benoit: 0.8

 

[ToneDog]

If we give Marner more than Mack, we have shit for brains at MLSE. No other way to put it.

Spoiler alert. They were/are ready to pay him close to 400K more and and make him one of the highest paid players in the league. He wants more for his two ENG in the month of January and superb playoff performances.

Current market value for Leafs players in the NHL excluding goalies (via the Athletic):

Matthews: 12.2
Marner: 12.0
Tavares: 10.4
Nylander: 9.2
Tanev: 7.1
McCabe: 6.7
OEL: 5.7
Knies: 5.6
Rielly: 5.0
McCann: 4.9
Domi: 2.9
Timmins: 2.7
Robertson: 2.2
Lorentz: 1.9
Patches: 1.8
Kampf: 1.1
Holmberg: 0.9
Dewar: 0.8
Reaves: 0.8
Benoit: 0.8

It's McMann. McCann is the goal scorer Dubas did not protect so he could protect Holl.

 

[DarkKnight]

This should help contract negotiations imo. The fact Carolina wasn’t in his no trade is interesting as well.

 

[arso40]

Current market value for Leafs players in the NHL excluding goalies (via the Athletic):

Matthews: 12.2
Marner: 12.0
Tavares: 10.4
Nylander: 9.2
Tanev: 7.1
McCabe: 6.7
OEL: 5.7
Knies: 5.6
Rielly: 5.0
McCann: 4.9
Domi: 2.9
Timmins: 2.7
Robertson: 2.2
Lorentz: 1.9
Patches: 1.8
Kampf: 1.1
Holmberg: 0.9
Dewar: 0.8
Reaves: 0.8
Benoit: 0.8

Athletics off with this one I’m afraid

 

[Zybalto]

It's McMann. McCann is the goal scorer Dubas did not protect so he could protect Holl.

Corrected

 

[DarkKnight]

Current market value for Leafs players in the NHL excluding goalies (via the Athletic):

Matthews: 12.2
Marner: 12.0
Tavares: 10.4
Nylander: 9.2
Tanev: 7.1
McCabe: 6.7
OEL: 5.7
Knies: 5.6
Rielly: 5.0
McMann: 4.9
Domi: 2.9
Timmins: 2.7
Robertson: 2.2
Lorentz: 1.9
Patches: 1.8
Kampf: 1.1
Holmberg: 0.9
Dewar: 0.8
Reaves: 0.8
Benoit: 0.8

2.8 million more than Nylander will be popular.

 

[Zybalto]

Athletics off with this one I’m afraid

How so? Seems to be reflecting Riellys off year, Tavares consistitant season, Domi/Robertson not really breaking out, etc.

 

[ToneDog]

Athletics off with this one I’m afraid

Yeah Tavares @ 10.4 and greater than Nylander. LOL

Leafs
Matthews: 13.25
Marner: 13
Tavares: 7.5
Nylander: 11.5
Total $45m

Athletic
Matthews: 12.2
Marner: 12.0
Tavares: 10.4
Nylander: 9.2
Total $43.8m