Mitch “Magic” Marner Thread

[Dekes For Days]

You do realize that Marner has a 1.23 PPG and the Rantanen has a 1.21 PPG this season and over the past 3 years that number is 1.16 PPG for Marner and 1.13 for Rantanen, right?

Yes, I do realize that Marner is outproducing Rantanen this year, the past two years (since the contract was signed), and the past 3 years, despite the fact that Rantanen gets significantly more PP time, and the fact that Rantanen has been playing with Mackinnon for that entire time. And that's before getting into the fact that Marner is better defensively, and is one of our top PKers. I also realize that Marner had proven to be a much better player than Rantanen at time of signing, which is what really matters for that discussion.

 

[ACC1224]

Marner is earning his salary but it would have been nice had he come in cheaper. Dubas messed up the signings pretty badly but it could have been worse. He’s learning on the fly and I’m sure sharp enough to have learned his lesson there.

 

[Stephen]

Yes, I do realize that Marner is outproducing Rantanen this year, the past two years (since the contract was signed), and the past 3 years, despite the fact that Rantanen gets significantly more PP time, and the fact that Rantanen has been playing with Mackinnon for that entire time. And that's before getting into the fact that Marner is better defensively, and is one of our top PKers. I also realize that Marner had proven to be a much better player than Rantanen at time of signing, which is what really matters for that discussion.

The numbers are a wash and Rantanen is bigger and a credible scoring threat and a monster on the PP (wouldn't that be nice).

Point is, not a lot of daylight between those and anyone who is happy to fork over $1.5 million extra for one or the other, well, I have a monorail for you.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Marner is earning his salary but it would have been nice had he come in cheaper. Dubas messed up the signings pretty badly but it could have been worse. He’s learning on the fly and I’m sure sharp enough to have learned his lesson there.

If he's earning it, then how did Dubas mess up the signing pretty badly? Doesn't that mean you were wrong for thinking he should be cheaper?

 

[Dekes For Days]

The numbers are a wash and Rantanen is bigger and a credible scoring threat and a monster on the PP (wouldn't that be nice).

The numbers are not a wash. The raw numbers you chose flatter Rantanen in comparison, and even with his advantages, he still doesn't even match Marner in even that form of production, let alone in everything else. You don't get paid more for being "bigger", and while Rantanen may be a better goal-scorer, Marner is a better point producer and primary point producer, so that's a weird thing to cling to. Marner is better at ES, better on the PP, and unlike Rantanen, he PKs. He's well worth the extra money, which again, is based on their pre-signing levels of production anyway. You've already ignored multiple thorough explanations highlighting the gap between them at that point in time, but we can do it all over again if you'd like. Personally, I'd prefer to just enjoy this amazing player.

 

[ACC1224]

If he's earning it, then how did Dubas mess up the signing pretty badly? Doesn't that mean you were wrong for thinking he should be cheaper?

He messed up all the signings.
Wouldn’t it be nice if the contract was viewed as a great deal?

 

[Dekes For Days]

He messed up all the signings.

He did no such thing. You just want "steals" for our most important players that had already shown their immense value. That's not how it works. The contracts were consistent with their comparables.

 

[DarkKnight]

The numbers are a wash and Rantanen is bigger and a credible scoring threat and a monster on the PP (wouldn't that be nice).

Point is, not a lot of daylight between those and anyone who is happy to fork over $1.5 million extra for one or the other, well, I have a monorail for you.

So Marner is a “monster” 5 v 5 then. See how that works.

 

[ToneDog]

The numbers are a wash and Rantanen is bigger and a credible scoring threat and a monster on the PP (wouldn't that be nice).

Point is, not a lot of daylight between those and anyone who is happy to fork over $1.5 million extra for one or the other, well, I have a monorail for you.

Our PP has been pathetic. Ranta 9 PP goals. Marner zero PPG and 13 PP assists. Both players bring different strengths to the table but in a cap world I think Mitch is slightly overpaid.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So Marner is a “monster” 5 v 5 then. See how that works.

Marner is actually more of a "monster" than him at 5v5 and on the PP. Rantanen just gets significantly more PP time.

 

[ToneDog]

So Marner is a “monster” 5 v 5 then. See how that works.

Hard to argue because Marner produces and makes anybody he plays with better. Want to see him dominate in the playoffs as well.

 

[Stephen]

So Marner is a “monster” 5 v 5 then. See how that works.

All I'm saying is Rantanen and Marner are extremely comparable players and why would anybody happily pay one $1.5 million more unless this was about making Dubas out to be the smartest guy in the room?

 

[justashadowof]

I go out and negotiate a new car deal that buys me one of the best and most reliable vehicles available on the market today. Turns out I could have paid $4K less if I was better at negotiating and knew the market better. Did I mess up the negotiation? Yes. Do I also now own a quality vehicle? Also yes.

 

[Stephen]

Marner is actually more of a "monster" than him at 5v5 and on the PP. Rantanen just gets significantly more PP time.

It's all a wash in the end. Their PPG totals are off by fractions over a three year sample size, Rantanen scores way more goals, Colorado has better special teams this year and are likely a stronger cup contender than Toronto. The idea that there's $1.5 million in value difference there is just off.

 

[DarkKnight]

Marner is actually more of a "monster" than him at 5v5 and on the PP. Rantanen just gets significantly more PP time.

Marner is second in the league 5 v 5 points, he and Matthews really stick out in the top scorers for their lack of PP points. I can only imagine their numbers with a better PP.

Here’s a stat, Marner is 4th in the league even strength goals.

Being a Marner “fan boy” is the best gig going lol.

 

[ToneDog]

Marner is actually more of a "monster" than him at 5v5 and on the PP. Rantanen just gets significantly more PP time.

And more PP goals. Almost as many as 34.

 

[Dekes For Days]

All I'm saying is Rantanen and Marner are extremely comparable players and why would anybody happily pay one $1.5 million more unless this was about making Dubas out to be the smartest guy in the room?

It's all a wash in the end.

But Marner and Rantanen are not the "wash" you like to paint them as. Marner is a better player, and that's quite obvious when you don't intentionally ignore important information and focus exclusively on things like goals and how big somebody is. It's not about being "happy" to pay more money. It's about recognizing how contracts work, and that the better you are, the more you will be paid. As you've been shown countless times, Marner is a better player, and was at time of signing, and thus he is paid more. As you've been shown countless times, Marner's contract is consistent with comparable post-ELC contracts.

Wouldn't it be great if we could all enjoy one of the best players in the league, and one of the best players to ever don this jersey, instead of dumping on them at every opportunity and acting like the grass is always greener?

 

[DarkKnight]

All I'm saying is Rantanen and Marner are extremely comparable players and why would anybody happily pay one $1.5 million more unless this was about making Dubas out to be the smartest guy in the room?

I’ve always said that the big 3 were overpaid. They are comparable, although I think Marner may be a more complete player IMO. One thing to note as well with Hyman out on the PK- Marner’s normal partner- Mitch has looked very good, another feather in his cap.

 

[Stephen]

I go out and negotiate a new car deal that buys me one of the best and most reliable vehicles available on the market today. Turns out I could have paid $4K less if I was better at negotiating and knew the market better. Did I mess up the negotiation? Yes. Do I also now own a quality vehicle? Also yes.

But Marner and Rantanen are not the "wash" you like to paint them as. Marner is a better player, and that's quite obvious when you don't intentionally ignore important information and focus exclusively on things like goals and how big somebody is. It's not about being "happy" to pay more money. It's about recognizing how contracts work, and that the better you are, the more you will be paid. As you've been shown countless times, Marner is a better player, and was at time of signing, and thus he is paid more. As you've been shown countless times, Marner's contract is consistent with comparable post-ELC contracts.

Wouldn't it be great if we could all enjoy one of the best players in the league, and one of the best players to ever don this jersey, instead of dumping on them at every opportunity and acting like the grass is always greener?

"Me and my friend both got our Playstation 5's over the holidays. I got mine the day of release at full price, and they got theirs on a Boxing Day Sale. But my Playstation 5 is better and I'm really glad I paid more for it and I would do so again every single time and I'm going to give you a lot of reasons why."

 

[Gary Nylund]

Marner is second in the league 5 v 5 points, he and Matthews really stick out in the top scorers for their lack of PP points. I can only imagine their numbers with a better PP.

Here’s a stat, Marner is 4th in the league even strength goals.

Being a Marner “fan boy” is the best gig going lol.

I'm honestly shocked to the point where I'm tempted to verify this but I guess I'll trust you.

That's amazing, I would never have guessed he's even in the top 10, let alone 4th, just wow!! I have to say I'm impressed, I'll just leave it at that.

As far as Dubas messing up on that contract, give it a rest guys. Dubas has hardly messed up anywhere else, that mistake seems very small now considering how Marner is playing and our worst contracts are Tavares and Marner, then we're in fantastic shape.

I would only add that the fact that these guys would have better numbers if our PP was better is also largely on them. Want better numbers? Fine, just score more goals FFS.

My favourite comment on the broadcast was where someone said that this PP looks great, it hasn't looked this good for months (paraphrasing). It was funny as I was thinking that exact thing at that exact moment. It was just one PP and we didn't score but still, it gave me a bit of hope that we will be better in the playoffs. And we have to better, if we can't score on the PP then we're f***ed. We might not be f***ed until the semi finals but sooner or later, we'll be f***ed nevertheless.

 

[Dekes For Days]

"Me and my friend both got our Playstation 5's over the holidays. I got mine the day of release at full price, and they got theirs on a Boxing Day Sale. But my Playstation 5 is better and I'm really glad I paid more for it and I would do so again every single time and I'm going to give you a lot of reasons why."

The more accurate analogy would be paying more for a Playstation 5 than somebody else is paying for a Playstation 4 at the same time. Entirely reasonable and understandable, and I'm happy with my better gaming system that can do more, even if I had to pay a little bit more.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

"Me and my friend both got our Playstation 5's over the holidays. I got mine the day of release at full price, and they got theirs on a Boxing Day Sale. But my Playstation 5 is better and I'm really glad I paid more for it and I would do so again every single time and I'm going to give you a lot of reasons why."

A better analogy is that you paid an extra $50 for a PS5 that can play PS2 games and has more storage, and then two years later you are still complaining that your friend paid less for a lesser version.

 

[Nooodles]

The numbers are not a wash. The raw numbers you chose flatter Rantanen in comparison, and even with his advantages, he still doesn't even match Marner in even that form of production, let alone in everything else. You don't get paid more for being "bigger", and while Rantanen may be a better goal-scorer, Marner is a better point producer and primary point producer, so that's a weird thing to cling to. Marner is better at ES, better on the PP, and unlike Rantanen, he PKs. He's well worth the extra money, which again, is based on their pre-signing levels of production anyway. You've already ignored multiple thorough explanations highlighting the gap between them at that point in time, but we can do it all over again if you'd like. Personally, I'd prefer to just enjoy this amazing player.

I had the exact same conversation with an Avs fan about a week ago and he also ignored the fact that Marner plays PK, one of the best at takeaways and can actually play defense, which alone makes him much more valuable. All this while better 5 on 5 and producing more points.

That 1.5M more actually looks pretty friendly when you consider the above, but being an Avs fan or a Dubas hater simply forces you to ignore these facts.

 

[Stephen]

The more accurate analogy would be paying more for a Playstation 5 than somebody else is paying for a Playstation 4 at the same time. Entirely reasonable and understandable, and I'm happy with my better gaming system that can do more, even if I had to pay a little bit more.

Rantanen isn’t a generation behind Marner. Their numbers tally up to extremely similar levels. One is a bigger goal scorer, the other a smaller playmaker, both are number two threats on good teams, and are about 6 months apart in age from the same draft taken less than 5 spots apart.

And in the end, this story is only about 50% Marner and Rantanen. The other 50% of the story is the price at which Sakic and Dubas were able to secure it their services and why Colorado appears to have more cap flexibility and prime aged depth. It’s not a $1.5 difference.

 

[DarkKnight]

I'm honestly shocked to the point where I'm tempted to verify this but I guess I'll trust you.

That's amazing, I would never have guessed he's even in the top 10, let alone 4th, just wow!! I have to say I'm impressed, I'll just leave it at that.

As far as Dubas messing up on that contract, give it a rest guys. Dubas has hardly messed up anywhere else, that mistake seems very small now considering how Marner is playing and our worst contracts are Tavares and Marner, then we're in fantastic shape.

I would only add that the fact that these guys would have better numbers if our PP was better is also largely on them. Want better numbers? Fine, just score more goals FFS.

My favourite comment on the broadcast was where someone said that this PP looks great, it hasn't looked this good for months (paraphrasing). It was funny as I was thinking that exact thing at that exact moment. It was just one PP and we didn't score but still, it gave me a bit of hope that we will be better in the playoffs. And we have to better, if we can't score on the PP then we're f***ed. We might not be f***ed until the semi finals but sooner or later, we'll be f***ed nevertheless.

It is a head turner.