Minnesota Wild General Discussion X

[AKL]

You're ignoring Chicago's decade of terrible hockey.
You're ignoring the fact that Pittsburgh's terrible play almost caused them to move before the Crosby lottery where all teams had equal lottery chances.

How long was Toronto rebuilding again? I remember it being quite a long time.

I’m not ignoring them at all, it’s literally my point. Teams are bad, really bad, and because of it they get high picks, and then they get good. That’s the cycle of it all. Pittsburgh wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for getting Crosby, Malkin and Fluery. Chicago was horrible until they got Kane and Toews. Then they won 3 Cups.

That’s the entire point, teams are bad, then they draft elite players, then they’re not bad.

I’m not talking at all about how long it takes to build a successful team when you bottom out, I’m talking about the need for elite talent that you typically only find at the top of the draft, save for a few exceptions here and there.

 

[TaLoN]

I’m not ignoring them at all, it’s literally my point. Teams are bad, really bad, and because of it they get high picks, and then they get good. That’s the cycle of it all. Pittsburgh wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for getting Crosby, Malkin and Fluery. Chicago was horrible until they got Kane and Toews. Then they won 3 Cups.

That’s the entire point, teams are bad, then they draft elite players, then they’re not bad.

I’m not talking at all about how long it takes to build a successful team when you bottom out, I’m talking about the need for elite talent that you typically only find at the top of the draft, save for a few exceptions here and there.

People bring up Edmonton and Buffalo because of how long they've been bad. Those teams went through that too. Eventually they hit on the right players at the right time and finally managed to surround them with the right players besides.

Teams can't go and plan for that. Not without risking being bad for a VERY long time, causing fans to lose interest and the franchise not being financially viable.

Being bad isn't a magic solution without possible severe consequences.

 

[AKL]

People bring up Edmonton and Buffalo because of how long they've been bad. Those teams went through that too. Eventually they hit on the right players at the right time and finally managed to surround them with the right players besides.

Teams can't go and plan for that. Not without risking being bad for a VERY long time, causing fans to lose interest and the franchise not being financially viable.

Being bad isn't a magic solution without possible severe consequences.

Man it’s a really good thing I’ve not suggested completely bottoming out then.

One year, this year. Move what isn’t part of the future, shut down injured players, let your young guys figure out who’s going to be here and who’s going to be moved.

That’s all I’ve ever advocated. One year. Not a decade like you and tsk continually refer to. The team has a solid foundation, but it’s missing the most important pieces. If you can help give yourself a better chance to get one of them in a very good draft, do it, because we need it. You don’t win the Cup by rolling three third lines and one second line.

 

[TaLoN]

Man it’s a really good thing I’ve not suggested completely bottoming out then.

One year, this year. Move what isn’t part of the future, shut down injured players, let your young guys figure out who’s going to be here and who’s going to be moved.

That’s all I’ve ever advocated. One year. Not a decade like you and tsk continually refer to. The team has a solid foundation, but it’s missing the most important pieces. If you can help give yourself a better chance to get one of them in a very good draft, do it, because we need it. You don’t win the Cup by rolling three third lines and one second line.

How do you make sure it's one year? What are you doing that limits it to one year? What's your plan?

 

[AKL]

How do you make sure it's one year? What are you doing that limits it to one year? What's your plan?

Same plan you have this year?

How are you make sure we make the playoffs again next year? What are you doing to limit missing them to this season and last?

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Same plan you have this year?

How are you make sure we make the playoffs again next year? What are you doing to limit missing them to this season and last?

beat me to it.

 

[TaLoN]

Same plan you have this year?

How are you make sure we make the playoffs again next year? What are you doing to limit missing them to this season and last?

So you want them to be bad, but have no sure way off limiting it. That's why you make efforts to be good every year... even if you fail, you don't "plan" on being bad.

Obviously we need to find a Center first and foremost. Add a decent center, influx of talent like Kaprizov, I personally would trade Brodin, his value will never be higher. I doubt Dumba stays at his current form... already showing signs of getting his game back.

 

[AKL]

So you want them to be bad, but have no sure way off limiting it. That's why you make efforts to be good every year... even if you fail, you don't "plan" on being bad.

Obviously we need to find a Center first and foremost. Add a decent center, influx of talent like Kaprizov, I personally would trade Brodin, his value will never be higher. I doubt Dumba stays at his current form... already showing signs of getting his game back.

I’m not trying to be bad come October. But it’s January. This team isn’t making the playoffs, and certainly aren’t doing anything if they do.

Move pieces like Brodin and Zucker, capitalize on their values because we can replace them internally. Acquire more draft capital. Use it to help the future. Possibly even acquire a higher draft pick in the process.

My plan isn’t to be bad for 5 years. My plan is to take a season where we’re already bad, and try to maximize our draft. My plan is to recognize that we’re not going UP this year, and realize that going “down” for one year is better than sitting on our thumbs doing absolutely f***ing nothing.

That’s my plan. No one wants to watch a bad team miss the playoffs, but if you’re going to miss the playoffs, miss the f***ing playoffs. Don’t scratch tooth and nail in March to miss the playoffs by 10 points and pick 12th because you were too stubborn to realize that it’s not happening for you this year.

 

[Bazeek]

I’m not trying to be bad come October. But it’s January. This team isn’t making the playoffs, and certainly aren’t doing anything if they do.

Move pieces like Brodin and Zucker, capitalize on their values because we can replace them internally. Acquire more draft capital. Use it to help the future. Possibly even acquire a higher draft pick in the process.

My plan isn’t to be bad for 5 years. My plan is to take a season where we’re already bad, and try to maximize our draft. My plan is to recognize that we’re not going UP this year, and realize that going “down” for one year is better than sitting on our thumbs doing absolutely ****ing nothing.

That’s my plan. No one wants to watch a bad team miss the playoffs, but if you’re going to miss the playoffs, miss the ****ing playoffs. Don’t scratch tooth and nail in March to miss the playoffs by 10 points and pick 12th because you were too stubborn to realize that it’s not happening for you this year.

As leery as I am of multi-year rebuild plans (which is a whole other discussion) I do think there's a point in every team's season where they have to decide if they really have a shot this year or not. There's no shame in facing reality and looking beyond this season to the next one, and I do think the Wild are coming up on that point very quickly.

Under different circumstances I think there's a lot to be said for giving the world the finger and going for it despite the odds, a little like CBJ did last year. I don't think we're in that situation right now, though.

 

[MuckOG]

That’s my plan. No one wants to watch a bad team miss the playoffs, but if you’re going to miss the playoffs, miss the ****ing playoffs. Don’t scratch tooth and nail in March to miss the playoffs by 10 points and pick 12th because you were too stubborn to realize that it’s not happening for you this year.

Can't argue with this. The only argument against this is if the reason the Wild narrowly miss a playoff run is because the younger players (Kunin, Donato, Fiala, etc.) suddenly find some mojo and their development takes off. But if it's only because Koivu, Parise, Staal, etc....are the leading contributors. That would be no good at all.

I think what Guerin needs to do is cut bait with any player he doesn't see helping this team two years from now, either because of age (Koivu) or because of ability (Rask, Donato) or because of contract (Rask).

 

[TaLoN]

I’m not trying to be bad come October. But it’s January. This team isn’t making the playoffs, and certainly aren’t doing anything if they do.

Move pieces like Brodin and Zucker, capitalize on their values because we can replace them internally. Acquire more draft capital. Use it to help the future. Possibly even acquire a higher draft pick in the process.

My plan isn’t to be bad for 5 years. My plan is to take a season where we’re already bad, and try to maximize our draft. My plan is to recognize that we’re not going UP this year, and realize that going “down” for one year is better than sitting on our thumbs doing absolutely ****ing nothing.

That’s my plan. No one wants to watch a bad team miss the playoffs, but if you’re going to miss the playoffs, miss the ****ing playoffs. Don’t scratch tooth and nail in March to miss the playoffs by 10 points and pick 12th because you were too stubborn to realize that it’s not happening for you this year.

I get that, but you were actually asking for the team to be bad in October, thus it just seemed a continuation. I get that we're likely not good right now. I've suggested trading Brodin. I agree Zucker should be traded as well, as should Donato.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

there should be ZERO untouchable players on roster or in the system.

Every player should be available for a trade because there are NO super star game breakers on Wild

 

[thestonedkoala]

Man it’s a really good thing I’ve not suggested completely bottoming out then.

Yes, you are - essentially. How do we know the guys we are bringing in are going to be as good as the ones that we are replacing? There are a lot of other factors as well, but many times one year turns into 3 or 4 really quickly as that one rookie you think might be the key ends up being a long term development plan.

Not a decade like you and tsk continually refer to.

Because in many cases, it does take a decade. Unless you suck for a few years...St. Louis Blues and Boston Bruins are more of an exception than a rule. Most teams drafted in the top 5 more than once.

Past 10 years:

St. Louis Blues - drafted Alex Pietrangelo (4th overall) in 2008 - won Cup in 2018-2019. (Excluded: Erik Johnson, drafted 1st overall in 2006)

Washington Capitals - drafted Alexander Ovechkin (1st overall) in 2004 - won Cup in 2017-2018. Drafted Nicklas Backstrom (4th overall) in 2006 - won Cup in 2017 - 2018. (Excluded: Karl Alzner, drafted 5th overall, 2007)

Pittsburgh Penguins - drafted Jordan Staal (2nd overall) in 2006 - won Cup in 2009. Drafted Sidney Crosby (1st overall) in 2005 - won Cup in 2009, 2016, 2017. Drafted Evengi Malkin (2nd overall) in 2004 - won Cup in 2009, 2016 and 2017. Drafted Marc-Andre Fleury (1st overall) in 2003 - won cup in 2009, 2016 and 2017.

Chicago Blackhawks - drafted Jonathan Toews (3rd overall) in 2006 - won cup in 2010, 2013, 2015. Drafted Patrick Kane (1st overall) in 2007. Won Cup in 2010, 2013 and 2015. (Excluded: Jack Skille, drafted 7th overall in 2005, Cam Barker drafted 3rd overall in 2004)

Los Angeles Kings - drafted Anze Kopitar (11th overall) in 2005 - won Cup in 2012, 2014. Drafted Drew Doughty (2nd overall) in 2008, won Cup in 2012, 2014. (Excluded Brayden Schenn drafted 5th overall in 2009, Thomas Hickey drafted 4th overall in 2007)

 

[BuiumSaveUs]

I’m not trying to be bad come October. But it’s January. This team isn’t making the playoffs, and certainly aren’t doing anything if they do.

Move pieces like Brodin and Zucker, capitalize on their values because we can replace them internally. Acquire more draft capital. Use it to help the future. Possibly even acquire a higher draft pick in the process.

My plan isn’t to be bad for 5 years. My plan is to take a season where we’re already bad, and try to maximize our draft. My plan is to recognize that we’re not going UP this year, and realize that going “down” for one year is better than sitting on our thumbs doing absolutely ****ing nothing.

That’s my plan. No one wants to watch a bad team miss the playoffs, but if you’re going to miss the playoffs, miss the ****ing playoffs. Don’t scratch tooth and nail in March to miss the playoffs by 10 points and pick 12th because you were too stubborn to realize that it’s not happening for you this year.

This year has literally always been the perfect year to re-tool and create a new culture when Kaprizov comes over.

 

[thestonedkoala]

This year has literally always been the perfect year to re-tool and create a new culture when Kaprizov comes over.

The way you guys go on, it's more than re-tooling. Moving Zucker and Staal (along with Koivu more than likely) leaves it to a lot of young guys - and Zuccs and Parise (who everyone hates now). It also doesn't address the goaltending issues that this team has had.

With the way things are going, next year is going to be:

Fiala - Kunin - Kaprizov
Parise - Eriksson Ek - Zucc
Greenway - Sturm - Donato
Foligno - Rask - Hartman

Suter - Dumba
Soucy - Spurgeon
Seeler - Belpedio/Mennell

Dubnyk
Stalock

That doesn't scream contender. Let's say, we do bottom out and get the 4th overall pick, and we select: Rossi...

Fiala - Rossi - Kaprizov
Parise - Donato - Zuccs
Greenway - Eriksson-Ek - Kunin
Foligno - Sturm - Hartman

Does that look any better?

 

[DeagleJenkins]

The way you guys go on, it's more than re-tooling. Moving Zucker and Staal (along with Koivu more than likely) leaves it to a lot of young guys - and Zuccs and Parise (who everyone hates now). It also doesn't address the goaltending issues that this team has had.

With the way things are going, next year is going to be:

Fiala - Kunin - Kaprizov
Parise - Eriksson Ek - Zucc
Greenway - Sturm - Donato
Foligno - Rask - Hartman

Suter - Dumba
Soucy - Spurgeon
Seeler - Belpedio/Mennell

Dubnyk
Stalock

That doesn't scream contender. Let's say, we do bottom out and get the 4th overall pick, and we select: Rossi...

Fiala - Rossi - Kaprizov
Parise - Donato - Zuccs
Greenway - Eriksson-Ek - Kunin
Foligno - Sturm - Hartman

Does that look any better?

what happens if we get 4 1st round picks, brodin zucker and staal and then 2 of our 4 first round picks turn into quality centers and we bring koivu back on a one year bridge deal.

Fiala - Ek - Kaprizov
Donato/greenway - koivu/sturm - kunin
Parise - sturm/koivu - Zucc
Donato/greenway - Rask - Hartmann

trade foligno for a pick.

 

[AKL]

The way you guys go on, it's more than re-tooling. Moving Zucker and Staal (along with Koivu more than likely) leaves it to a lot of young guys - and Zuccs and Parise (who everyone hates now). It also doesn't address the goaltending issues that this team has had.

With the way things are going, next year is going to be:

Fiala - Kunin - Kaprizov
Parise - Eriksson Ek - Zucc
Greenway - Sturm - Donato
Foligno - Sturm - Hartman

Suter - Dumba
Soucy - Spurgeon
Seeler - Belpedio/Mennell

Dubnyk
Stalock

That doesn't scream contender. Let's say, we do bottom out and get the 4th overall pick, and we select: Rossi...

Fiala - Rossi - Kaprizov
Parise - Donato - Zuccs
Greenway - Eriksson-Ek - Kunin
Foligno - Sturm - Hartman

Does that look any better?

Trading Koivu would be a smart move if he didn’t have a NMC. Expiring UFA, possibly retiring after the season, and a 3C at best at this point. As it were, we can’t trade him. He’ll either re-sign or retire.

If we’re in the same position next season, either re-sign or trade him by the deadline too. That’s one thing Fenton did right. Staal is still a legitimate top 6 center so I’m fine with re-signing him as long as he continues to be a top 6 center. If next year is his last though, and we’re out of the playoffs at the deadline, move him without hesitation.

Zucker and Brodin can be replaced internally by the time next season starts. You can shed up to 9M in salary, get some solid futures for them, and replace them for free? If the returns are good, that’s a no brainer.

Trade either Donato or Greenway because there’s no room for both, same with Seeler/Hunt.

Fiala-Staal-Kaprizov
Donato/Greenway-Ek-Zuccarello
Parise-?-Kunin
Foligno-Sturm-Hartman

Suter-Spurgeon
Soucy-Dumba
Seeler/Hunt/Pateryn
Menell/Belpedio

What about that sounds like tearing it down and sucking for a decade to you? What about that is so egregiously bad that we couldn’t possibly fathom it?

 

[AKL]

Trading Koivu would be a smart move if he didn’t have a NMC. Expiring UFA, possibly retiring after the season, and a 3C at best at this point. As it were, we can’t trade him. He’ll either re-sign or retire.

If we’re in the same position next season, either re-sign or trade him by the deadline too. That’s one thing Fenton did right. Staal is still a legitimate top 6 center so I’m fine with re-signing him as long as he continues to be a top 6 center. If next year is his last though, and we’re out of the playoffs at the deadline, move him without hesitation.

Zucker and Brodin can be replaced internally by the time next season starts. You can shed up to 9M in salary, get some solid futures for them, and replace them for free? If the returns are good, that’s a no brainer.

Trade either Donato or Greenway because there’s no room for both, same with Seeler/Hunt.

Fiala-Staal-Kaprizov
Donato/Greenway-Ek-Zuccarello
Parise-?-Kunin
Foligno-Sturm-Hartman

Suter-Spurgeon
Soucy-Dumba
Seeler/Hunt/Pateryn
Menell/Belpedio

What about that sounds like tearing it down and sucking for a decade to you? What about that is so egregiously bad that we couldn’t possibly fathom it?

You could also use some of the cap space to go after a guy like Haula to play 2C. Or someone else if you prefer. It’s an example. But we’d have quite a bit of cap space if we needed it.

 

[BuiumSaveUs]

The beautiful part about this year is that you can pretty much be assured that we won’t be a perennial bottom dweller if we take the rest of this year off. Losing Zucker’s production will hurt, but his spot will be replaced next year by Kaprizov. Shutting down Suter whose been playing hurt will blow a hole in the only strength of the team, likely meaning a terrible finish (yay), but rest assured that He’ll be back next year. Brodin I would keep unless it’s for a comparable top 6 C or someone with top 6 C upside. Add in potentially a 2C in FA (haula type) and a goalie and we’re a playoff contender. The goalie doesn’t even need to be that good. Greiss would be more than enough to make our goaltending middle of the pack based on xSavePercenage. I’m not saying we become a bona-fide playoff team, but we are certainly a better team than we are now and we created one of the best prospect pools in the world.

Assuming we make the moves as above and that we continue our Minnesota Lottery luck, lets say we pick 7th.
-Trade Zucker a 1st + 2nd
-Draft Rossi/Lundell/Stutzle (I’ll just say Rossi bc I love him)
-sign FA C. Let’s say Haula
Sign FA Goalie. Let’s say Greiss

next year’s lines:
Fiala-Haula-Kaprizov
Parise-Staal-Zuccarello
Greenway-Ek-Kunin
Foligno-Sturm-Hartman

Suter-Spurgeon
Brodin-Dumba
Soucy-Menell

Greiss
Kahkonen

I promise you that that team is no worse than the team we have today. I think the goaltending alone makes it much better. A 10-20 finish is where that team would likely end up.

our prospect pool would look like:
Boldy
Rossi
Khovanov
Beckman
2020 late 1st (Poirier “LD”)
Firstov
Jones
2020 late 2nd

 

[AKL]

FWIW, no matter what we do, I don’t think we’ll be back in the playoffs until 2021-22 at the earliest. Unless Kahkonen makes big moves next season.

 

[BuiumSaveUs]

The way you guys go on, it's more than re-tooling. Moving Zucker and Staal (along with Koivu more than likely) leaves it to a lot of young guys - and Zuccs and Parise (who everyone hates now). It also doesn't address the goaltending issues that this team has had.

With the way things are going, next year is going to be:

Fiala - Kunin - Kaprizov
Parise - Eriksson Ek - Zucc
Greenway - Sturm - Donato
Foligno - Rask - Hartman

Suter - Dumba
Soucy - Spurgeon
Seeler - Belpedio/Mennell

Dubnyk
Stalock

That doesn't scream contender. Let's say, we do bottom out and get the 4th overall pick, and we select: Rossi...

Fiala - Rossi - Kaprizov
Parise - Donato - Zuccs
Greenway - Eriksson-Ek - Kunin
Foligno - Sturm - Hartman

Does that look any better?

This looks much better than what our forwards are going to look like in 3 years if we continue down the same path. What’s your plan? Just keep doin what we’re doin? If we don’t hit on some star player’s we’re going to be basement dwellers whether we’re bad this year or not.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Fiala-Staal-Kaprizov
Donato/Greenway-Ek-Zuccarello
Parise-?-Kunin
Foligno-Sturm-Hartman

Suter-Spurgeon
Soucy-Dumba
Seeler/Hunt/Pateryn
Menell/Belpedio

What about that sounds like tearing it down and sucking for a decade to you? What about that is so egregiously bad that we couldn’t possibly fathom it?

1) Kaprizov could struggle to adapt to the NHL or not be the superstar we all expect him to be. He could be literally the next Granlund, a 20-25 goal scoring winger.

2) We don't have a replacement for Staal in the near future. We don't even know the 2020 could be. We're going through a lot of assumptions.

3) Both Donato and Fiala have ran and cold this year. Furthermore, Fiala is shooting a little above his average. For all we know, he tops out as a 15-35 winger. Not bad, but not a game breaker. Donato is also shooting high, but we're already penciling him as a top 6 winger, when we don't even know if he'll be a consistent winger.

4) I love Ek, but he is what he is. A great 3rd line center, but nothing screams to me he's in the top 6.

5) Right now we have some key injuries, but no one seems to be wanting to stand up and take over. In the last 10 games, Donato is 2 goals and 1 assist. Fiala is 1 goal, 4 assists in the last 10 games. And these are the kids you want to turn the team over too?

This looks much better than what our forwards are going to look like in 3 years if we continue down the same path. What’s your plan? Just keep doin what we’re doin? If we don’t hit on some star player’s we’re going to be basement dwellers whether we’re bad this year or not.

Honestly, I'd bottom out completely. I think it's delusional to think that we're just going to have a one year turn around. We're putting all of our eggs in one basket in terms of a quick turnaround. I'd keep Staal and Zucker, trade Donato, Brodin and Foligno at the deadline. Maybe Dumba depending on what we get back. Possible Seeler and Hunt. Next year, trade Staal.

 

[AKL]

1) Kaprizov could struggle to adapt to the NHL or not be the superstar we all expect him to be. He could be literally the next Granlund, a 20-25 goal scoring winger.

2) We don't have a replacement for Staal in the near future. We don't even know the 2020 could be. We're going through a lot of assumptions.

3) Both Donato and Fiala have ran and cold this year. Furthermore, Fiala is shooting a little above his average. For all we know, he tops out as a 15-35 winger. Not bad, but not a game breaker. Donato is also shooting high, but we're already penciling him as a top 6 winger, when we don't even know if he'll be a consistent winger.

4) I love Ek, but he is what he is. A great 3rd line center, but nothing screams to me he's in the top 6.

5) Right now we have some key injuries, but no one seems to be wanting to stand up and take over. In the last 10 games, Donato is 2 goals and 1 assist. Fiala is 1 goal, 4 assists in the last 10 games. And these are the kids you want to turn the team over too?

Keeping Zucker and Brodin isn't going to have an effect on having a replacement for Staal in 2021 or not.

The entire team has had hot and cold stretches. I'm more comfortable turning the future of our offense over to Fiala than I am with Zuccarello, Parise or Zucker.

You're bringing up Fiala shooting 10.5% on the season compared to his career average of...*checks notes*...9.9%?

Ek is tied for 5th on the team in ES points while playing a shutdown role with Kunin and Greenway, you not seeing 2C potential says more about you than him. For the record, 17 ES points ties him with Zucker and Parise, one point behind Zuccarello.

We literally have 0 injuries right now.

 

[AKL]

Honestly, I'd bottom out completely. I think it's delusional to think that we're just going to have a one year turn around. We're putting all of our eggs in one basket in terms of a quick turnaround. I'd keep Staal and Zucker, trade Donato, Brodin and Foligno at the deadline. Maybe Dumba depending on what we get back. Possible Seeler and Hunt. Next year, trade Staal.

Now you're a fan of tanking?

You don’t want to trade Zucker cause Kaprizov could not work out and then we’d be screwed, but let’s trade Donato, Brodin, Foligno and Dumba and tank?

 

[BuiumSaveUs]

Honestly, I'd bottom out completely. I think it's delusional to think that we're just going to have a one year turn around. We're putting all of our eggs in one basket in terms of a quick turnaround. I'd keep Staal and Zucker, trade Donato, Brodin and Foligno at the deadline. Maybe Dumba depending on what we get back. Possible Seeler and Hunt. Next year, trade Staal.

I’m getting mixed messages here. Bottoming out is exactly how you end up in the basement of the league for a decade. @thestonedkoala