Minnesota Wild General Discussion - 2023-24

[AKL]

Maybe the reason Florida is about to win the Cup is because they don't have guys like Foligno and Lomberg leading the way

 

[Wabit]

What do you think Foligno goes for on the market today? Name a player that performs his role better than he does for the same price, and that could be acquired for free.

The second and third points are pure conjecture and I am very doubtful, if nobody wanted to be here, we wouldn’t have all these NMCs. And when guys negotiate for NMCs, they usually take less money or term to do so. The NMCs were cost saving aspects of the contracts.

Foligno is a 33yo, bottom-6, PKer, that plays heavy and his body is wearing out (he's missed 40 games combined the last 2 seasons) . He's a short term deal contract for a contender, not a long term contract for anyone. He's a $3m x 2 contract at most, anything more is an overpay.

I'd let most players walk (or trade at the TDL) if I don't think it is a good/fair contract.

I'd much rather have the ~$21m that is tied up in Spurgeon, Foligno, MarJo, Freddy G, Merrill, and Gus next year and fill in the roster via prospects, trades, and FA. None of these guys are what I would consider core pieces of a team.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Gustavsson's deal was defensible.

 

[AKL]

Gustavsson's deal was defensible.

It still is if you're not trying to shoehorn Fleury into the roster and call up Wallstedt for a full time role.

A smart, prudent GM wouldn't trade Gus right now given all the context surrounding our goalie situation.

 

[AKL]

I remember a time when Minnesota had a great D with the likes of Suter, Spurgeon, Brodin, Dumba, Scandella, and other teams fans (like Edmonton), would talk about how their D players were really good too, and we would laugh at them because they were overrating run of the mill depth players who were being forced to play higher up the lineup because of a lack of talent and depth in that lineup to push them down where they belong.

I remember thinking it was really funny when they'd do that. We all laughed because they were so used to a lack of talent and depth they had convinced themselves that a player like Marcus Foligno is actually worth 4M and plays a critical role in the teams success, despite the fact that the team wasn't having any success.

 

[Wabit]

It still is if you're not trying to shoehorn Fleury into the roster and call up Wallstedt for a full time role.

A smart, prudent GM wouldn't trade Gus right now given all the context surrounding our goalie situation.

MN will be in the same situation next year if they keep Gus. Not re-signing MAF and going Gus + Wallstedt next year was the plan I would to like to have seen.

MAF+ Wallstedt next year
or
MAF+Gus next year, then Gus+Wallstedt the next season.

Gus' contract term has been strange to me since the deal was signed.

 

[AKL]

MN will be in the same situation next year if they keep Gus. Not re-signing MAF and going Gus + Wallstedt next year was the plan I would to like to have seen.

MAF+ Wallstedt next year
or
MAF+Gus next year, then Gus+Wallstedt the next season.

Gus' contract term has been strange to me since the deal was signed.

It's not strange at all. At the time it was signed I had assumed Fleury would be done playing hockey at this point and we'd go into 2024-25 and beyond with Gus/Wallstedt.

But now that Fleury is playing one more year we go into 2024-25 with Gus/Fleury, and start 2025-26 with Gus/Wallstedt.

At this point, Wallstedt can get some more games here and there this season, and could fill in if either Fleury or Gus get injured. Then in 2025-26 you still have Gus to lean on if Wallstedt isn't ready to take the starting job. And after that you reevaluate.

And even if Gus sucks again this season, it's still easier to move him next summer because he only has one year left.

The Gus contract is a complete non issue. It's much better to have that in your pocket than to dump him now, have to rely on Fleury (who is no better than Gus) and Wallstedt (who may or may not be ready), and then have to find a replacement for Gus in 2025-26.

This team has far bigger issues than Gus being on the roster.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

MN will be in the same situation next year if they keep Gus. Not re-signing MAF and going Gus + Wallstedt next year was the plan I would to like to have seen.

MAF+ Wallstedt next year
or
MAF+Gus next year, then Gus+Wallstedt the next season.

Gus' contract term has been strange to me since the deal was signed.

They could've gone 1 year with lower $'s for Gus if they wanted to, but there was legit upside of having a good/great 26 year old goalie signed for 2 more years at a reasonable amount.

 

[keppel146]

Rossi and a 2nd for Necas?

No thanks.

 

[Wabit]

They could've gone 1 year with lower $'s for Gus if they wanted to, but there was legit upside of having a good/great 26 year old goalie signed for 2 more years at a reasonable amount.

1 year was the way to go after a completely unsustainable half season worth of games by Gus.

It's not strange at all. At the time it was signed I had assumed Fleury would be done playing hockey at this point and we'd go into 2024-25 and beyond with Gus/Wallstedt.

But now that Fleury is playing one more year we go into 2024-25 with Gus/Fleury, and start 2025-26 with Gus/Wallstedt.

At this point, Wallstedt can get some more games here and there this season, and could fill in if either Fleury or Gus get injured. Then in 2025-26 you still have Gus to lean on if Wallstedt isn't ready to take the starting job. And after that you reevaluate.

And even if Gus sucks again this season, it's still easier to move him next summer because he only has one year left.

The Gus contract is a complete non issue. It's much better to have that in your pocket than to dump him now, have to rely on Fleury (who is no better than Gus) and Wallstedt (who may or may not be ready), and then have to find a replacement for Gus in 2025-26.

This team has far bigger issues than Gus being on the roster.

It was strange. They gave up all team control and still paid him very well for what he'd done in his career.

If Gus has another season like he did this year MN would be paying to get rid of him as a cap dump. Get rid of him now, play Wallstedt, and use that $2.75m elsewhere.

Seriously $2.75m (Gus) + $1.2m (Merrill) + $1m (Chisholm) and that is ~$5m that could be spent on an actual top-4 LD,

 

[thestonedkoala]

Hell, Minnesota could have signed Duhaime at half the price of Foligno. He's a cheaper version of Foligno, but it took how long before Foligno really caught on?

I agree the 21 million the Wild have used up on guys that don't really move the needle in the long term was bad signings. Also how often has Hartman and Foligno hurt Minnesota with their stupid penalties as of late?

 

[Wabit]

Hell, Minnesota could have signed Duhaime at half the price of Foligno. He's a cheaper version of Foligno, but it took how long before Foligno really caught on?

I agree the 21 million the Wild have used up on guys that don't really move the needle in the long term was bad signings. Also how often has Hartman and Foligno hurt Minnesota with their stupid penalties as of late?

Hartman's contract isn't bad. He's just turning 30 and has had a 30g and 20g season in the last 3 years and is averaging 49p per season. This is a good/fair contract to me.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

1 year was the way to go after a completely unsustainable half season worth of games by Gus.

Disagree. It was a reasonable upside bet on a young player. Same thing with Boldy getting 7 x $7, Eriksson Ek getting 8 x $5.25 and Faber going to get 8 x ~$9. None of them actually deserved those contracts at the time that they signed them (or are going sign them).

Good thing with the goalies is that there is not as much pressure to have to make bets that big. They can stay in the 2-3 years x $3-4M range.

 

[AKL]

1 year was the way to go after a completely unsustainable half season worth of games by Gus.


It was strange. They gave up all team control and still paid him very well for what he'd done in his career.

If Gus has another season like he did this year MN would be paying to get rid of him as a cap dump. Get rid of him now, play Wallstedt, and use that $2.75m elsewhere.

Seriously $2.75m (Gus) + $1.2m (Merrill) + $1m (Chisholm) and that is ~$5m that could be spent on an actual top-4 LD,

It's not strange. He was young and had shown flashes prior to getting here, and then had a really good season here. You lock him up with a little term because if you give him one year and he does it again, now you're paying him more money with more term.

If he had another season like he did in his first here, we're not having this conversation. If he ends up closer to year 1 than year 2 in 2024-25, no one will be talking about moving him next summer.

If he has another bad season, you don't need to move him because you can use him as a backup if Wallstedt is actually ready.

It was a deal you give a young player who you hope continues to develop, because if he had, we'd all be ecstatic about the contract. It didn't work out like that in year 1. There are 2 more years left to make up for it. Little to no downside here because it's a very easy contract to get out of if you absolutely have to, and it's small enough that you'll never absolutely have to.

You're splitting hairs about guys like Merrill and Chisholm but the reality is, had Guerin not extended Foligno and Zuccarello to their contracts, that's where your money for a $5M LD should be coming from. Or the 14M in dead cap we're saddled with. Gus' contract is not the issue. Chisholm getting 1M or less is not the issue. Merrill getting 1.2M is hardly an issue.

 

[Wabit]

Disagree. It was a reasonable upside bet on a young player. Same thing with Boldy getting 7 x $7, Eriksson Ek getting 8 x $5.25 and Faber going to get 8 x ~$9. None of them actually deserved those contracts at the time that they signed them (or are going sign them).

Good thing with the goalies is that there is not as much pressure to have to make bets that big. They can stay in the 2-3 years x $3-4M range.

Gus on a 3 year deal is a lot different than the 7 and 8 year deals you're comparing it too.

 

[AKL]

Gus on a 3 year deal is a lot different than the 7 and 8 year deals you're comparing it too.

Yes, because Gus on a 3 year deal is far less term and far less money than those other deals, meaning it's far less risky and far less of an issue if things do go bad.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Gus on a 3 year deal is a lot different than the 7 and 8 year deals you're comparing it too.

It's different in term and amount. It's not different in the reason why it was offered/agreed to, which was my point.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Hartman's contract isn't bad. He's just turning 30 and has had a 30g and 20g season in the last 3 years and is averaging 49p per season. This is a good/fair contract to me.

Hartman is starting to annoy me because of the stupid crap he's been doing lately. So I guess I'm biased there

 

[Wabit]

It's not strange. He was young and had shown flashes prior to getting here, and then had a really good season here. You lock him up with a little term because if you give him one year and he does it again, now you're paying him more money with more term.

If he had another season like he did in his first here, we're not having this conversation. If he ends up closer to year 1 than year 2 in 2024-25, no one will be talking about moving him next summer.

If he has another bad season, you don't need to move him because you can use him as a backup if Wallstedt is actually ready.

It was a deal you give a young player who you hope continues to develop, because if he had, we'd all be ecstatic about the contract. It didn't work out like that in year 1. There are 2 more years left to make up for it. Little to no downside here because it's a very easy contract to get out of if you absolutely have to, and it's small enough that you'll never absolutely have to.

You're splitting hairs about guys like Merrill and Chisholm but the reality is, had Guerin not extended Foligno and Zuccarello to their contracts, that's where your money for a $5M LD should be coming from. Or the 14M in dead cap we're saddled with. Gus' contract is not the issue. Chisholm getting 1M or less is not the issue. Merrill getting 1.2M is hardly an issue.

Zucc is fine. He'll still put up 60p on a $4m contract. Foligno isn't fine with his 25p at $4m.

Gus was absolutely terrible last year. He was an Addison quality of player. Everyone was happy to see him go and he was only an $825k contract. Gus makes 4x that amount.

Hartman is starting to annoy me because of the stupid crap he's been doing lately. So I guess I'm biased there

He annoys me at times too, but I do see the value of the contract. He's not in the same boat as the Goli type of contract where player annoys me and I see negitive value of the contract.

 

[AKL]

Zucc is fine. He'll still put up 60p on a $4m contract. Foligno isn't fine with his 25p at $4m.

Gus was absolutely terrible last year. He was an Addison quality of player. Everyone was happy to see him go and he was only an $825k contract. Gus makes 4x that amount.

Gus was better than Fleury last year, why are you not outraged about Fleury's extension when we could have replaced that money with Wallstedt?

Reality is, even if Gus was as bad as you think he was (he wasn't), you're going to be hard pressed to find a better goalie for cheaper. You're certainly not going to find one that has the upside Gus has for cheaper.

 

[Wabit]

Gus was better than Fleury last year, why are you not outraged about Fleury's extension when we could have replaced that money with Wallstedt?

Reality is, even if Gus was as bad as you think he was (he wasn't), you're going to be hard pressed to find a better goalie for cheaper. You're certainly not going to find one that has the upside Gus has for cheaper.

Gus was only better than MAF on the PK. MAF beat him by a lot in every other goalie category.

There are goalies that hit waivers every year that are cheaper than Gus. We have Wallstedt to fill Gus' roster spot for cheaper.

 

[AKL]

Gus was only better than MAF on the PK. MAF beat him by a lot in every other goalie category.

Stats don't support that.

There are goalies that hit waivers every year that are cheaper than Gus. We have Wallstedt to fill Gus' roster spot for cheaper.

Cheaper was one half of the equation and you completely ignored the other, more important half.

 

[DigitalBoldy]

Gus was better than Fleury last year, why are you not outraged about Fleury's extension when we could have replaced that money with Wallstedt?

Reality is, even if Gus was as bad as you think he was (he wasn't), you're going to be hard pressed to find a better goalie for cheaper. You're certainly not going to find one that has the upside Gus has for cheaper.

Fleury’s extension was worse than all of Foligno/Zucc/Hartman/Middleton(soon)

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I was very disappointed in Gustavsson's season last year. Doesn't mean the rationale of his extension wasn't justifiable in the summer of 2023 though.

He also had almost the exact same numbers as Vasilevskiy. Goalies are just really weird.

 

[AKL]

Fleury’s extension was worse than all of Foligno/Zucc/Hartman/Middleton(soon)

I don't think Fleury's extension is actually an issue either. Only becomes an issue if you now try to force Wallstedt onto the roster by way of trading Gustavsson, but you don't need to do any of that.

In terms of extensions being bad, Foligno's was really bad, Zuccarello's was bad, Fleury's was neutral, if Middleton gets 4x4 that's probably neutral to a little bad, Hartman's was good.