Value of: Mike Matheson

[FerrisRox]

Matheson has been moved twice and has returned little value. I’m not sure why him suddenly putting up points on a bottom five team suddenly inflates his value to a 1st or 2nd.

Are you serious?

When he was traded from the Florida Panthers, his career high in points was 27.

When he was traded from the Pittsburgh Penguins, his career in high in points was 32.

Last season, he posted 62 points, and you're not sure why he would have his value inflated now?

For real? You honestly can't figure this one out?

 

[Jumptheshark]

Are you serious?

When he was traded from the Florida Panthers, his career high in points was 27.

When he was traded from the Pittsburgh Penguins, his career in high in points was 32.

Last season, he posted 62 points, and you're not sure why he would have his value inflated now?

For real? You honestly can't figure this one out?

On a bad team being spoon fed minutes due to how bad or inexperience the other D are.

For those talking about pts--most of his pts are assists--if he scored more goals that would carry more weight

Big Mike is very bad in his own zone

 

[Barsky]

Are you serious?

When he was traded from the Florida Panthers, his career high in points was 27.

When he was traded from the Pittsburgh Penguins, his career in high in points was 32.

Last season, he posted 62 points, and you're not sure why he would have his value inflated now?

For real? You honestly can't figure this one out?

It increases his value, but apparently not as much as you think. "Offenceman" who aren't great defensively, like the Gostisbehere's, Erik Gustafsson's & Tony Deanglos of the world, all of whom have broken 60 pts, don't garner 1st's or 2nd's in trades. A good defenseman is not generally determined solely by the points column, ever

 

[Frank Drebin]

We have had this thread before when he played on TWO different teams

here are his 2 previous trades for context

• 2020-Sep-24 Traded from Florida Panthers with Colton Sceviour to Pittsburgh Penguins for Patric Hornqvist
• 2022-Jul-16 Traded from Pittsburgh Penguins with round 4 pick in the 2023 draft (Bogdan Konyushkov) to Montreal Canadiens for Ryan Poehling and Jeff Petry

very good logic here

 

[Gurglesons]

Are you serious?

When he was traded from the Florida Panthers, his career high in points was 27.

When he was traded from the Pittsburgh Penguins, his career in high in points was 32.

Last season, he posted 62 points, and you're not sure why he would have his value inflated now?

For real? You honestly can't figure this one out?

He was top 20 in 5v5 production when he was moved for Petry.

Last year Petry out produced him at 5v5.

Putting up 30+ PP points on a bad team when you’re playing 24+ a night is not something contenders are paying high value for.

I defended the Matheson trade a ton when I was told “he had the worst contract in the league” by Cats fans. I watched him a ton in Florida. I’ve watched him in Montreal. And I was an advocate for him in PIT.

He’s a very intriguing player, but he just isn’t smart enough to pay big value for.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not a Leafs fan, i guess everyone assumes so because the avatar lol.

But Sandin was 22 when traded and was not making a lot of money, 1.4M. Caps targeted him for the future and as much for upside.

Matheson is a 30 year old vet. I don't see him getting a 1st round pick but ibve been wrong before.

Let's see what happens i guess....

It's circumstantial if he gets a late 1st or not. Depends on how he is trending and also what cup contenders are after. I can see it going both ways to be honest. 2nd round and B+ prospect or late 1st.

very good logic here

The error here with many fans is Matheson has improved with his time on the Habs. More usage yes but he's at the mature age and he's not the same player he was with the Panthers and Pens. He's not that strong in his own end but he's one of the better offensive puck movers from the back end in the NHL and on a value contract. The value contract is something that is worth a lot to cup contenders but once again, He has to join a team that has solid D and needs some offense. If that team already has offensive D men, they will pass.

 

[bud12]

I would try to trade him for a reliable rhd so Guhle could return to his natural side. In fact, the more I thinks of it, I would trade him for a big poutine and some nachos

 

[ElPrimeTime]

I gave 5 examples already in the past 14 years + Klingberg who was offered a 7x7 extension from Dallas which he stupidly turned down. How many more do you expect? It's not like defensemen of this level grow on trees.

Each one of these returned value of at least a 1st including Barrie who returned a 2C in Kadri. Kadri had the extra 2 years of term, Barrie was retained. Those were the two core pieces of the trade, the rest filler (Kerfoot, picks, prospects).

Toronto then proceeded to use him as their 2nd most played D and after seeing that fail, Edmonton signed him (twice) to be their 2nd most played D as well, where he would continue to play PP1 over an up and coming blue chip prospect in Bouchard, not unlike Matheson/Hutson.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Nashville trading for him as a washed up cap dump at all. And I'm done wasting my time defending a well known fact that GMs stupidly overpay for 20+ minute a night defenseman all the time in spite of their obvious flaws.

I'm not bringing up Nashville for bringing him in, I'm bringing up Nashville trying to trade to him. Last year, offensive d-man Barrie was being shopped around not only by Nashville, but his agent was given permission to seek a trade and they could not find one at all. Not a single one. Bringing up trades for 5-14 years ago is irrelevant now imo. The fact that you can't see a difference in defensemen production from when Barrie was traded to the NHL right now baffles me. So I'll try to simplify it for you.

2018/2019 D-Men Points (The season before Barrie was sent to the Leafs)
1. 83 in 82 games
2. 74 in 78 games
3. 72 in 82 games
4. 70 in 80 games
5. 62 in 82 games
6. 60 in 79 games
7. 59 in 78 games (Barrie)

2023/2024 D-Men Points
1. 92 in 82 games
2. 90 in 77 games
3. 85 in 82 games
4. 82 in 81 games
5. 76 in 78 games
6. 73 in 72 games
7. 70 in 79 games

Can you see why a 60 point d-man with defensive warts would be considered more valuable 5, 10, 15 years ago?

 

[Hostile Offer]

Point totals aside, I just don't think Matheson is a winner. He's exactly the sort of player who will rack up a ton of points playing a ton of minutes on some bottom feeder team while being a net negative contributor but there just isn't much of a market for guys like that anymore. He needs his minutes cut on the Habs but there just aren't many options to replace him at the moment.

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

Matheson surprised me last year, assumed he was just a cap dump/veteran filler but he played very well. Having said that now we have Hutson than can play that role (better) and we need to get Guhle on the left side so MM needs to go. We have draft picks coming out of the wazoo, I’d prefer to trade him for a good young physical bottom 6 player.

 

[samsagat]

Would be better in a lesser role, where he could focus more on his defensive play.

I think he could fetch the equivalent of a late 1st (25+) and a b prospect..

He's 6'2" and skates like the wind.
With a coach not giving him carte blanche offensively, demanding a more conservative style of play from him, he'd be a good 2nd pair guy.

In MTL, the offensive talent is so scarse that he's relied upon to create offense at all cost. Plus he's one of the very few veteran on MTL defensive squad.

But if he was used in a more suitable way for him, like 20 min and not against the best opposite players, he'd surely be a positive contributor.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Would be better in a lesser role, where he could focus more on his defensive play.

I think he could fetch the equivalent of a late 1st (25+) and a b prospect..

He's 6'2" and skates like the wind.
With a coach not giving him carte blanche offensively, demanding a more conservative style of play from him, he'd be a good 2nd pair guy.

In MTL, the offensive talent is so scarse that he's relied upon to create offense at all cost. Plus he's one of the very few veteran on MTL defensive squad.

But if he was used in a more suitable way for him, like 20 min and not against the best opposite players, he'd surely be a positive contributor.

Team don't pay a 1st and B prospect for a 2nd pair guy with defensive issues.

A 1st and a B prospects is what Hanifin brought back and Hanifin is notably better than Matheson.

 

[Miller Time]

Team don't pay a 1st and B prospect for a 2nd pair guy with defensive issues.

A 1st and a B prospects is what Hanifin brought back and Hanifin is notably better than Matheson.

Hanifin was a rental, Matheson is not.

If he's made available, which seems very unlikely, a 1st + B prospect is likely the smallest return the Habs would take & only if that 1st is coming from a WC level teM likely to pick in the mid-teens to low 20's

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hanifin was a rental, Matheson is not.

Hanifin pretty much immediately was extended by Vegas and Vegas had talked with him about an extension prior to the trade.

Also, Matheson himself only has this year and next year under contract as well, so it's not like he's cost controlled either.

 

[Miller Time]

Hanifin pretty much immediately was extended by Vegas and Vegas had talked with him about an extension prior to the trade.

Sure, but the contract status affects value. Hanifin for a few months <5M then at >7M has less trade value than 2 years at <5M

Also, Matheson himself only has this year and next year under contract as well, so it's not like he's cost controlled either.

A full season at a set cap hit is the definition of "cost control".

Contract status very much affects trade valuation, to argue otherwise is silly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sure, but the contract status affects value. Hanifin for a few months <5M then at >7M has less trade value than 2 years at <5M


A full season at a set cap hit is the definition of "cost control".

Contract status very much affects trade valuation, to argue otherwise is silly.

But again, Vegas was trading for him with the intent on signing him long term and the deal included Vegas talking with Hanifin about an extension before hte deal.

Matheson isn't bringing back the same value that Hanifin brought back. Matheson is a niche player that needs to be sheltered on a good team to provide value, teams don't trade that kind of value for players like that.

 

[Miller Time]

But again, Vegas was trading for him with the intent on signing him long term and the deal included Vegas talking with Hanifin about an extension before hte deal.

Sure. And that likely played a role in the valuation just like his contract status did.

Matheson isn't bringing back the same value that Hanifin brought back. Matheson is a niche player that needs to be sheltered on a good team to provide value, teams don't trade that kind of value for players like that.

Disagree

 

[therocket9]

But again, Vegas was trading for him with the intent on signing him long term and the deal included Vegas talking with Hanifin about an extension before hte deal.

Matheson isn't bringing back the same value that Hanifin brought back. Matheson is a niche player that needs to be sheltered on a good team to provide value, teams don't trade that kind of value for players like that.

Montreal got a 1st round pick back for Chiarot and he was on an expiring contract.....Matheson u get for 2 playoff runs.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Montreal got a 1st round pick back for Chiarot and he was on an expiring contract.....Matheson u get for 2 playoff runs.

Chiarot isn't even a remotely comparable kind of player to Matheson.

 

[Gurglesons]

Montreal got a 1st round pick back for Chiarot and he was on an expiring contract.....Matheson u get for 2 playoff runs.

Chiarot is the type of defensive minded, big body that every contender is looking to add.

Matheson is the type of leaky, powerplay specialist that gets tossed around the league regularly for nothing.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The best comparison for a guy like Matheson is DeAngelo when he was traded as a RFA after putting up 51 points in 63 games for the Hurricanes in 2021-2022. He was traded to Philly for a 2nd, 3rd and 4th and immediately signed to a 2 year, $5 million AAV deal after the trade.

DeAngelo is a shithead so maybe Matheson brings back more based on that factor, but you're still looking at something like 2 2nds at most for him. And even that feels a bit optimistic based on Matheson's declining production (only 10 points and 4 ES points in 17 games this year) and age.

 

[Miller Time]

Similar takes to the Monahan threads before he was traded last year.

Bottom line is that Matheson will be "worth" whatever Montreal trades him for... IF they trade him.

From the Habs pov, there's zero reason to trade him for anything less than a value premium. I doubt theyd view a late 1st & B prospect to be sufficient, he's more valuable to their roster next season than that return. KH has pretty consistently made trades that exceeded the expectations from hf boards trade threads, very little reason to doubt that trend continuing if they move Matheson

 

[Frank Drebin]

You will give up a first and you will like it

 

[therocket9]

Chiarot is the type of defensive minded, big body that every contender is looking to add.

Matheson is the type of leaky, powerplay specialist that gets tossed around the league regularly for nothing.

Many offensive minded s-men have gotten a 1st back....Hronek Sandin OEL Skjei and that is just the last 5 years.