Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?

[MadLuke]

That's serious cherry-pickimg that still does not account for the fact that Gretzky outgoaled Bossy in 6 of 8 seasons they were in the league together.

Yes I agree that it was a serious exercise done, the comments was more if you are really curious about the how it could be there was a very long and serious thread about it:

Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

I've posted on this in a couple of threads before, and I thought I'd put it out there for discussion. When it comes to discussing the greatest goalscorers, I've often seen Bossy dismissed in this forum because Gretzky was a better goal scorer in their era. I don't think that's true at all -- I...

forums.hfboards.com

playoff + all regular season games against above average defensive team is not a small sample size.

An other point that was made, from 80 to 87 when both are in the nhl.

If we remove short handed play, playoff and regular season combined you have

Bossy scored 520 goals in 711 games, 0.731 gpg
Gretzky scored 553 goals in 733 games, 0.754 gpg

How much difference is there outside coaching decision ?

But in all those analysis, my feeling tend to be, at best Bossy was as good than Gretzky in a list of scenario, his limited ice-time, etc... and Gretzky did more outside of it, making him an easy tie breaking winner of the all-time scorer conversation.

Who was better at scoring goal argument for Bossy will be eye test/would have done it longer-more different league-more different teams built, less reliant at getting open with speed, etc...)

 

[VistamarCroissants]

Bossy was 10x the player Bure was. Better ppg, better gpg, better in the playoffs, better defense, better playmaker.

Bure was a good individualistic player, but never won anything.

You keep talking about the 80s NHL vs the 90s NHL.

Interesting what would have Bossy won playing for the Panthers with Viktor Kozlov as his center.

 

[Gorskyontario]

You keep talking about the 80s NHL vs the 90s NHL.

Interesting what would have Bossy won playing for the Panthers with Viktor Kozlov as his center.

Scoring levels in the early 90s, when Bure had his best seasons were also high.


The panthers wouldn't have been contenders with Bossy, but they certainly wouldn't have been swept in 4 games in 2000.

 

[oilexport]

Bure was definatly the better player, but not for long enough. So Bossy wins

What a powerhouse Team the islanders were. Vancouver was a joke comparatively.

Interesting comparison, but apples and oranges kinda thing

 

[Albatros]

Scoring levels in the early 90s, when Bure had his best seasons were also high.


The panthers wouldn't have been contenders with Bossy, but they certainly wouldn't have been swept in 4 games in 2000.

Sure, they were a Whitney-Kozlov-Bossy top line away from being competitive against the to-be champions...

Bure scored 58 and 59 goals in the middle of the dead-puck era.

 

[VistamarCroissants]

Scoring levels in the early 90s, when Bure had his best seasons were also high.


The panthers wouldn't have been contenders with Bossy, but they certainly wouldn't have been swept in 4 games in 2000.

Bure in Florida posted 58-59 goal seasons in a low scoring era. This is phenomenal, because this is the same level of production as in the the high-scoring early 90s.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Bure in Florida posted 58-59 goal seasons in a low scoring era. This is phenomenal, because this is the same level of production as in the the high-scoring early 90s.

He wasn't a good overall player in florida. Just so you know it helps to have watched the games, instead of looking at stats.

In florida he played 30 minutes a night, and cherry picked all season long.

Sure, they were a Whitney-Kozlov-Bossy top line away from being competitive against the to-be champions...

Bure scored 58 and 59 goals in the middle of the dead-puck era.

Bure's performance was pathetic in florida, if you consider his overall game.

 

[Sentinel]

Yes I agree that it was a serious exercise done, the comments was more if you are really curious about the how it could be there was a very long and serious thread about it:

Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

I've posted on this in a couple of threads before, and I thought I'd put it out there for discussion. When it comes to discussing the greatest goalscorers, I've often seen Bossy dismissed in this forum because Gretzky was a better goal scorer in their era. I don't think that's true at all -- I...

forums.hfboards.com

playoff + all regular season games against above average defensive team is not a small sample size.

An other point that was made, from 80 to 87 when both are in the nhl.

If we remove short handed play, playoff and regular season combined you have

Bossy scored 520 goals in 711 games, 0.731 gpg
Gretzky scored 553 goals in 733 games, 0.754 gpg

How much difference is there outside coaching decision ?

But in all those analysis, my feeling tend to be, at best Bossy was as good than Gretzky in a list of scenario, his limited ice-time, etc... and Gretzky did more outside of it, making him an easy tie breaking winner of the all-time scorer conversation.

Who was better at scoring goal argument for Bossy will be eye test/would have done it longer-more different league-more different teams built, less reliant at getting open with speed, etc...)

And the cherry-picking continues. Why are you removing SHGs?

Here is one more for you. Gretzky: four 70+ goal seasons. Bossy: zero. "At his best" Bossy does not sniff Gretzky's numbers.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Another vote for Maruk over Sakic then...?

 

[VistamarCroissants]

He wasn't a good overall player in florida. Just so you know it helps to have watched the games, instead of looking at stats.

In florida he played 30 minutes a night, and cherry picked all season long.



Bure's performance was pathetic in florida, if you consider his overall game.

He played tons of minutes at Florida because he was the only person who could provide offense for the struggling team.

I didn't know that winning back to back Richard trophies on a crappy team is pathetic. Thanks for opening my eyes!

 

[VistamarCroissants]

He wasn't a good overall player in florida. Just so you know it helps to have watched the games, instead of looking at stats.

In florida he played 30 minutes a night, and cherry picked all season long.



Bure's performance was pathetic in florida, if you consider his overall game.

He played tons of minutes at Florida because he was the only person who could provide offense for the struggling team.

I didn't know that winning back to back Richard trophies on a crappy team is pathetic.

 

[Hippasus]

Using the given top-three goal scorers against the average first-liners in terms of goal-scoring from 1917-18 to 2015-16, for their careers, I got:

Gordie Howe	19.1251479​
Bobby Hull	17.442786​
Ovechkin	17.3112481​
Richard	15.0108746​
Esposito	13.3940927​
Jagr	11.905447​
Bossy	11.9042713​
Nels Stewart	11.6286034​
Lemieux	11.260734​
Gretzky	10.3326094​
Dye	10.2154181​
Brett Hull	9.85600251​
Denneny	9.73036124​
Bure	9.33345028​
Stamkos	9.24759451​
Charlie Conacher	9.07798924
Selanne	8.93640551​
Morenz	8.89115028​
Cook	8.74323811​
Bondra	8.50258188​
Lafleur	8.36211196​
Beliveau	7.79337017​
Mahovlich	7.01710139​
Iginla	6.9443937​
LeClair	6.73113954​
Roy Conacher	6.69028567
Kovalchuk	6.68171078​
Yzerman	6.44575775​
Heatley	6.24739353​
Geoffrion	6.03033945​
Mikita	5.75851109​
Lindsay	5.29619398​
Kurri	5.26611999​
Mogilny	5.09584639​
Lalonde	5.03149828​
Dionne	4.99036933​
Joliat	4.97850791​
Sakic	4.90532738​
Tkachuk	4.78409286​
Kerr	4.64699424​
Fleury	4.57095181​
Kariya	4.54806695​
Hextall	4.53493158​
Gaborik	4.51756939​
Neely	4.51307153​
Barry	4.46926491​
Jackson	4.44315345​
Malone	4.13798112​
Boucher	4.11214482​
Moore	4.0974478​
Blake	3.98567066​
Perry	3.51547893​
Malkin	3.49391988​
Shutt	3.44577543​
Weiland	3.3972026​
Cooper	3.3312901​
Palffy	3.30115835​
Naslund	3.27457357​
Carter	3.26344496​
Nash	3.26168506​
Bailey	3.25875233​
Nolan	3.25236758​
Martin	3.18738627​
Amonte	3.17328442​
Murray	3.16176715​
Redmond	3.14680393​
Sheppard	3.13732242​
Shanahan	3.07258707​
Lindros	3.03622958​
Simmer	3.02585513​
Goulet	3.01645049​
Sloan	2.82406814​
Ullman	2.765579​
Drillon	2.76442919​
Wharram	2.73732912​
Abel	2.73183062​
Doug Bentley	2.67218876
Nighbor	2.54575893​
Henry	2.5445063​
Cain	2.52481301​
Hamill	2.47745601​
Clapper	1.94181326​
Nicholls	1.87998321​
Crosby	1.87586207​
Hejduk	1.8558952​
Cheechoo	1.81344597​
Patrick	1.79859485​
Kane	1.77606178​
McDonald	1.7749276​
Leach	1.76207983​
Lecavalier	1.75482094​
Gaye Stewart	1.7535545
Tavares	1.74636175​
Bucyk	1.71994135​
Bertuzzi	1.70494186​
Kilrea	1.69354839​
Cleghorn	1.69230769​
Broadbent	1.69230769​
Hossa	1.66727207​
Zhamnov	1.64078325​
Marleau	1.6140619​
Fedorov	1.61400949​
Parise	1.60773481​
Hadfield	1.60714286​
Yashin	1.59899749​
Robitaille	1.5971223​
Hodge	1.58102767​
Benn	1.57996146​
Pavelski	1.57251298​
Herbert	1.56896552​
Gionta	1.55001755​
Stevens	1.54218953​
Andreychuk	1.52587464​
Larouche	1.52458159​
Gare	1.52347521​
Stoughton	1.52347521​
Bellows	1.50462963​
Kovalev	1.50103377​
Sundin	1.53213752​
Guerin	1.53213752​
Horvath	1.51844262​
Gagne	1.51719298​
Maruk	1.51563753​
Noble	1.51376147​
Roenick	1.51297578​
Roberts	1.51297578​
Cournoyer	1.50748396​
Schmidt	1.50526316​
Dumart	1.50526316​
Graves	1.49653916​
Zetterberg	1.49943757​
Boyes	1.49943757​
Simpson	1.47727273​
MacLeish	1.47235577​
Turgeon	1.46785226​
Shibicky	1.46511628​
Satan	1.45120934​
Carson	1.45030426​
Thoms	1.4735376​
Max Bentley	1.44859813​
Anderson	1.43493552​
Dillon	1.43403442​
Schriner	1.43283582​
Unger	1.43135346​
Hergesheimer	1.42561983
Bathgate	1.41962422​
Mantha	1.41613588​
Dave Trottier	1.38053097​
Goodfellow	1.35514019​
Thompson	1.35169492​
Lamb	1.35153129​
Aurie	1.34963325​
Lafontaine	1.30918499​
Keeling	1.28780488​
Syd Howe	1.25475285​
Mosienko	1.24553571​
Benoit	1.24137931​
Lach	1.24390244​
Provost	1.23668639​
Carr	1.224​
Liscombe	1.224​
Litzenberger	1.20620843​
Burch	1.18918919​
Jimmy Conacher	1.18817204
Watson	1.18817204​
Kennedy	1.17171717​
Bauer	1.14864865​
Delvecchio	1.10124334​

So I have Bossy>Gretzky>Bure, using this method.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I really don't care who wins this poll but seeing the title it occurred to me that I have no idea what kind of player/goal scorer Mike Bossy was. I always imagined him being a Brett Hull type, great shot, find open areas rather than a gamebreaker like Bure. Anyone able to provide some insight?

 

[Albatros]

He played tons of minutes at Florida because he was the only person who could provide offense for the struggling team.

I didn't know that winning back to back Richard trophies on a crappy team is pathetic. Thanks for opening my eyes!

Offense to the extent that he was +25 that year. Sure he was on ice for many goals against (but fewer than the fellow Hart candidate Owen Nolan for one) and no more on even strength than the goals he scored by himself which more than offset the deficiency and took them to the playoffs to start with.

 

[Albatros]

I really don't care who wins this poll but seeing the title it occurred to me that I have no idea what kind of player/goal scorer Mike Bossy was. I always imagined him being a Brett Hull type, great shot, find open areas rather than a gamebreaker like Bure. Anyone able to provide some insight?

I think a Luc Robitaille would be a slightly better comparison, great scoring instincts with the ability to put the puck when and where it needed to be, also very opportunistic with good hands in front of the net magically digging in one rebound after another despite not being an exceptional physical presence.

Brett Hull was exceptionally elusive in making himself open for a pass and then using his all-time great shot, Bossy didn't quite have that in him. He was accurate but not that heavy, probably less than Robitaille even.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Bure in Florida posted 58-59 goal seasons in a low scoring era. This is phenomenal, because this is the same level of production as in the the high-scoring early 90s.

While floating around and getting close to half a game of ice time and being a goal suck.

I am not saying it is his fault or anything, it was Floridas game plan because they were awful.. but this is not an apples to apples comparison with Bossy playing less time on a deep team and entering his own end of the ice regularly.

 

[JackSlater]

I really don't care who wins this poll but seeing the title it occurred to me that I have no idea what kind of player/goal scorer Mike Bossy was. I always imagined him being a Brett Hull type, great shot, find open areas rather than a gamebreaker like Bure. Anyone able to provide some insight?

Very quick release and very accurate first and foremost. Smart about getting open and willing to go to the tough areas even though he wasn't really built for it. Very smart, maybe the most cerebral of the great goal scorers. A lot of Bossy goals are him taking a quick, accurate shot from a pretty good position.

I remember that Bowman compared his goal scoring to Esposito's stylistically and that's one I wouldn't think of but is accurate. A quick and accurate shot from a good position is really difficult to stop.

 

[Gorskyontario]

He played tons of minutes at Florida because he was the only person who could provide offense for the struggling team.

I didn't know that winning back to back Richard trophies on a crappy team is pathetic.

The way he played those years was shameful.

 

[Sentinel]

While floating around and getting close to half a game of ice time and being a goal suck.

I am not saying it is his fault or anything, it was Floridas game plan because they were awful.. but this is not an apples to apples comparison with Bossy playing less time on a deep team and entering his own end of the ice regularly.

"A goal suck"? WTF does this even mean? He is the only one of that team even remotely capable of putting the puck in the net!

 

[VistamarCroissants]

tr

The way he played those years was shameful.

true, Bure has put a lot of defencemen and goalies to shame in those seasons.

 

[MadLuke]

Maybe in 2001, but in 1999 and 2000 he had quite the impact.

The 1999 Panthers were 25-30-6 without Bure, a ~minus 20 team.

In 2000 they were 43-27-6-6, a +35 team, Bure was +25 himself.

 

[overpass]

I really don't care who wins this poll but seeing the title it occurred to me that I have no idea what kind of player/goal scorer Mike Bossy was. I always imagined him being a Brett Hull type, great shot, find open areas rather than a gamebreaker like Bure. Anyone able to provide some insight?

Bossy had an incredibly quick release with great accuracy and great hockey sense.

He was dangerous on the rush, a fast skater with hands and a shot. Better than Hull or Robitaille in that way. But when I think of a signature Bossy goal, one that he could score like nobody else, it's a goal off a pass from a teammate along the boards where he skates to open ice, receives the pass in stride, and puts it in the back of the net all in one motion.

While Bossy was always the #1 option for his team when he was on the ice, he didn't float around in the circle and wait for the pass. He worked in the corners and played like any other winger, but he had a great sense of timing for when to break for the scoring area to receive a pass. And he shot the puck immediately, mid-stride if needed, no gathering the puck or setting his feet.

Bossy went hard to the net as well, and took a lot of hits. It probably shortened his career.

For a great goal scorer, he didn't take anything off the table for his teammates either. Trottier, Brent Sutter, and John Tonelli all scored 40+ goals with Bossy and never scored over 35 without him. His impact on the team was huge. The Islanders went from an above average offensive team to a great offensive team in his rookie season. He immediately became the #1 option on the power play, and the Islanders set a league record for the most efficient power play in his rookie season.

 

[Gorskyontario]

tr


true, Bure has put a lot of defencemen and goalies to shame in those seasons.

The goal for Mike Bossy was to win, Bure's goal was to collect his bonus.

 

[Overrated]

The goal for Mike Bossy was to win, Bure's goal was to collect his bonus.

Based on what? Based on the fact Bossy won Stanley Cups and Bure didn't? That's due to the randomness of the draft and the way players are traded and has nothing to do with much else. Wasn't there a possibility that the Habs would get Dionne? Well they didn't and the rest is history. You can make all these different stories about how he didn't want it enough and that's why he didn't win it. You can make similar stories about how Jagr was dependent on Lemieux and how he couldn't lead himself or how McDavid doesn't have the heart but at the end of the day the league is set up in a way where it's randomness that decides whether you win or not.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The way he played those years was shameful.

Yes. Shame! SHAME ON PAVEL BURE for scoring 58 and 59 goals in the heart of the dead puck era!

Listen to how embarrassed this crowd is when Bure scores perhaps the most disgraceful short handed goal of all time. How could he ever show his face in public after that?