Melvin's 2021-22 NHL Team Projections

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,207
28,114
Vancouver, BC
I was going to wait a bit, but I see that other projections are already coming out so I feel like doing mine.

I started a thread about this last year but I ran into a myriad of problems. First, I didn't do a good job keeping rosters up to date, and then I got banned from the forums, and also I changed jobs a few times and moved back to Canada, and just sort of abandoned the project. So I'm going to try again!

My overall methodology is covered in the old thread so I won't go over it again, other than to say a few things:

1) I have identified and fixed a number of bugs in my code, including one that was causing all the numbers to be so low across the board.

2) I am keeping the rosters up to date, basically just going to CapFriendly every day and adding any new signings. Thus these rankings are still somewhat in flux and I might post like weekly updates or something if anyone cares or if there is some big transaction that moves the needle somewhere.

3) All RFA's are projected to be with their teams. So Pettersson/Hughes ARE included for the Canucks.

4) Various players are assumed out for the season until I hear otherwise: Tuukka Rask, Shea Weber, Oscar Klefbom, Jonathan Toews, Micheal Ferland, etc are not included in projections. If some new info pops up that indicates they will play this season, then I will update. Please feel free to post that for me in this thread.

5) Bear in mind I am projecting goal differential and ranking the teams based on goal differential. I have not, at this point, taken the schedule into account and run any actual simulations.

I think that's it. Goal differential is calculated by considering the rosters, projecting ice time of all the players, and constructing ES/PP/PK rates separately taking into account the penalty drawing/taking rates of the players involved (and their ice time.) If you want more details on the methodology see the linked thread from last year. Oh, and I am just looking at regulation time, and not empty netters or silly things like that.

I have done my best to estimate usage but in some cases, especially with the goaltending, usage isn't 100% clear so feel free to chime in on anything you know that I may not (like what in the f*** Philadelphia is doing in net.)

OK, one last thing. There is still 2 months before the season starts and if say some Jack Eichel player were to Jack Eichel be traded like Jack Eichel for example, Jack Eichel, then I can update these (although ...... well, you'll see where Buffalo is already.)

THE RANKINGS

1. VEGAS GOLDEN KNIGHTS
:vegas

ES Offense: 1st
ES Defense: 23rd
PP: 3rd
PK: 5th
Goaltending: 5th
Overall Goal Differential: +40

I've seen some consternation that Vegas has had a bad off-season but the numbers love Robin Lehner, don't see goaltending being an issue and still love the team's offense. They should still be a force.

2. COLORADO AVALANCHE
:avs

ES Offense: 12th
ES Defense: 1st
PP: 1st
PK: 18th
Goaltending: T-20th
Overall Goal Differential: +38

Not a lot separating #1 from #2. The numbers prefer Vegas offense but Colorado defense. Francouz is probably underrated as he's a 31-year-old goalie with limited NHL data who didn't play last year, so that could be a wild card, not that they really need one.

3. TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS
:leafs

ES Offense: 2nd
ES Defense: 21st
PP: 8th
PK: 4th
Goaltending: 1st
Overall Goal Differential: +38

Hey, what can I say. I don't like it either. Goaltending, 1st? The Leafs? Well, yeah. Mrazek and Campbell both project extremely well, and I am assuming 50/50 usage for now. Much with the rest of the roster, people tend to evaluate goalies based on star power of their starter, but if you look at the last 4 or 5 years, the team with the best goaltending has been a team with an effective tandem of goalies that basically split time (Bishop/Khudobin, Greiss/Lehner, etc.) This IMO works better (in the regular season) than having 1 elite guy and 1 scrub, but we'll get to Tampa Bay.

4. SEATTLE KRAKEN
:seattle

ES Offense: 19th
ES Defense: 8th
PP: 12th
PK: 3rd
Goaltending: 3rd
Overall Goal Differential: +18

Uh oh. I'm gonna get heat for this one. Just to be perfectly clear, this is not based on the success of Vegas. The numbers know nothing about this. It is true that some players are likely overrated because they are selected from very good teams and it's unclear if they will be as effective on a new team, but I don't have a great way to control for this (if anyone has some opinions on how one can approach that problem, please post them. I can go into greater detail of why it's an issue.)

As it stands, Seattle looks like a very good, well-rounded team with middling offense but with great overall ES play and excellent goaltending. Say what you will about the Grubauer signing (I thought it was strange as well,) but there is no denying that Grubauer/Driedger should be a terrific tandem next year and their overall defensive play should make up for their relatively weak offense. But we'll see! Part of the reason I am posting so much detail is so I can analyze easily what specifically was off once the season concludes.

One last thing. Note that the overall goal differential took a big drop between 3 and 4 here. There is a bit of a gap in what looks like the elite-3 and the next tier.

5. CAROLINA HURRICANES
:canes

ES Offense: 5th
ES Defense: 10th
PP: 2nd
PK: 30th
Goaltending: T-20th
Overall Goal Differential: +15

Hmmm. So they let 25 year old Nedeljkovic go and are rolling with two 32 year olds with a heavy injury history. This could really go a lot of ways. Either they run a solid 50/50 tandem and both Andersen and Raanta excel under a lighter workload, or it could completely implode on them. The numbers are not too impressed, but the rest of the team is undeniably very good and sees them as a top team even if the goaltending ends up not working out, which means if the goalies actually do play well then they could be elite-tier.

6. TAMPA BAY LIGHTNING
:bolts

ES Offense: 6th
ES Defense: 5th
PP: 23rd
PK: 7th
Goaltending: 17th
Overall Goal Differential: +13

Say what? back-to-back cups and they are in 6th? Well, yes, you see, this is regular season rankings. Let me explain. In the playoffs, you can just play Andrei Vasilivskiy in every game, and that works fine. It works quite fine, just ask them! But in the regular season, you need two goalies. Tampa more or less decided that they don't give a f*** about this and are willing to punt 15 games every year when they don't use Vasilivskiy, because they can still just get to the playoffs and then roll him every game. Last year they started Curtis McIlhinney 12 times and went 4-6-2 in those games. They appear set up to do a similar thing this time around, with their second goalie being 36 year old Brian Elliott. No really, look it up if you don't believe me. Starting Elliott 20 times could well prevent them from being a 1st place team in the regular season, but I am guessing that they literally don't care even the smallest amount.

7. PITTSBURGH PENGUINS
:pens

ES Offense: 26th
ES Defense: 6th
PP: 4th
PK: 29th
Goaltending: 15th
Overall Goal Differential: +7

Getting long in the tooth, but Pittsburgh still has a solid enough team with a potent PP. They feel to me like the least-changed team in the league, but Jared McCann and Brandon Tanev are losses, and are kind of on the thin line between elite teams and middling teams right now.

8. NEW YORK ISLANDERS
:isles

ES Offense: 4th
ES Defense: 17th
PP: 32nd
PK: 8th
Goaltending: 8th
Overall Goal Differential: +6

The Islanders are a team that always seems to be off my radar. Are they good now? When did that happen? Weirdly while they are projected to have a great ES offense, they have the worst PP projection in the league. It is at this point that I should clarify something When I say "worst PP" I really mean "fewest PP goals." I think PP% is actually one of the most overrated stats in the sport. The amount of PP goals you score is a function of both your power play efficiency and the rate at which you draw penalties, and I feel like the latter of these is always ignored. But a team that is elite at drawing penalties and has an OK PP will score more than a team that is very bad at drawing penalties and has a good PP, and at the end of the day it's the number of goals you score that wins you games, not the "efficiency." Who gives a f*** about your efficiency if you get 13 PP's in a game, you know?

OK, that was a bit of a rant. My point is that while NYI has a good, deep offense, they are somewhat lacking in top-end firepower, and they have the worst penalty-drawing rates in the league. Those two things combine for them to score the fewest # of PP goals regardless of how """efficient""" they might be at it.

The rest of the team is fine, whatever.

9. NASHVILLE PREDATORS
:nashville

ES Offense: 21st
ES Defense: 11th
PP: 14th
PK: 17th
Goaltending: 6th
Overall Goal Differential: +4

How is Nashville just, like, always right here? We have reached the Nashville zone of teams. You know Nashville. They are quite good even though you've never heard of any of their players, but they are probably not elite. OK, that's not really true this time around. There are some *names* on this team. Matt Duchene! Ryan Johansen! These guys have been HFBoards favorites for years. Too bad they are not really all that good, and the teams strengths as usual are built around strong team defense and goaltending. Now, the numbers kinda hate David Rittich, so usage could be a factor here. Last year, Saros (who is good) played about 65% of minutes and I'm projecting about the same, but he might end up being more like 75% with Rittich as the #2 instead of Rinne. Please chime in if you have thoughts on this, as it would probably bump them up a bit.

10. DALLAS STARS
:stars

ES Offense: 7th
ES Defense: 14th
PP: 29th
PK: 6th
Goaltending: 18th
Overall Goal Differential: +2

The line between the top tier and the middle tier is somewhere around here I feel. Dallas is a fairly well-rounded team that plays well at ES, but like NYI doesn't draw a lot of penalties and doesn't have a ton of top-end firepower on their PP. Like Pittsburgh, they are getting pretty old and it remains to be seen how effective Tyler Seguin will be after missing almost all of last season and putting up a disappointing 50 points the season before that.

11. BOSTON BRUINS
:bruins

ES Offense: 27th
ES Defense: 3rd
PP: 16th
PK: 27th
Goaltending: 10th
Overall Goal Differential: +1

Losing David Kreijci hurts, and as mentioned before I am assuming that Tuukka Rask will not be returning, and I am projecting Ullmark/Swayman at about 50/50 usage after consulting with some Bruins fans (don't worry, I showered after.) Swayman is a young goalie who was fantastic in 10 games last year (.945 Sv%,) but ... it's 10 games. Ullmark's numbers have been quite poor for years, so it will be interesting to see how that shakes out. It's the Bruins, so, I'm sure Swayman will start 70 games with a .938% and win the Vezina. My model just doesn't understand this. Hey, did you guys realize that Patrice Bergeron is now 36 years old? So at least there's that.

12. NEW YORK RANGERS
:rangers

ES Offense: 23rd
ES Defense: 13th
PP: 6th
PK: 31st
Goaltending: 8th
Overall Goal Differential: 0

What a weird team. I actually don't have that much to say about them. They have a pretty elite PP unit and draw an OK number of penalties. The defense is really good but not necessarily deep. The offense is probably under-rated because the system has no knowledge of how good Kaapo Kakko and Alex Lafrieniere are supposed to be. A breakout from those two would obviously have a massive impact.

13. FLORIDA PANTHERS
:panthers

ES Offense: 8th
ES Defense: 9th
PP: 11th
PK: 22nd
Goaltending: 25th
Overall Goal Differential: -2

Basically two questions here. One, how good is Spencer Knight? Two, how much will Spencer Knight play and how much playing time will they need to give to the $10,000,000 man? Knight is projected conservatively because the system knows nothing of NCAA performance, and I have their usage as 50/50 right now pending better information. If Knight is the real deal and steals the majority of the playing time from Bobrovsky, they will be higher than this.

14. CALGARY FLAMES
:flames

ES Offense: 11th
ES Defense: 7th
PP: 20th
PK: 21st
Goaltending: 22nd
Overall Goal Differential: -4

This is obviously pending any Matthew Tkachuk trade that comes out. As of this writing I am projecting Tkachuk with Calgary. Losing him would be tough, but he does take a lot of penalties so might help their PK out a bit. I don't know what to say about Calgary. They still have a good defensive team despite losing Gio, but Markstrom was disappointing last year and they need a bounce-back. A lot of their young guns didn't really pan out and now Gaudreau is 28 and has probably had his best seasons already. Still, they should be good enough to challenge for a playoff spot in the Pacific.

15. EDMONTON OILERS
:edmonton

ES Offense: 3rd
ES Defense: 30th
PP: 9th
PK: 12th
Goaltending: 26th
Overall Goal Differential: -4

Welp. I think we are solidly in "bubble team territory" now. This was my biggest surprise when working on this, as I thought Edmonton was going to come out lower. There is no denying their offensive power, but also the terrible defense. This has been Edmonton for years. If you're wondering about the Penalty Killing, it's the same thing I said above about the PP. Their PK unit is not necessarily going to be "good," but they actually don't really take a ton of penalties so it doesn't burn them too much. The 12th place ranking refers to the total times they get scored on on the PK, not the rate at which they kill the penalties they take.

16. NEW JERSEY DEVILS
:devils

ES Offense: 9th
ES Defense: 12th
PP: 19th
PK: 24th
Goaltending: 18
Overall Goal Differential: -4

Ah. Yep. They are a team! They have some very team-like qualities, in particular their team-ness, which is very teamy. I do have Tatar and Hamilton on here, and they project pretty well. Are Jack Hughes and Nico Hischier going to bust out? Is Mackenzie Blackwood actually good? I don't know! Moving on!

17. WINNIPEG JETS
:jets

ES Offense: 30th
ES Defense: 28th
PP: 17th
PK: 15th
Goaltending: 2nd
Overall Goal Differential: -6

Wait are those rankings real? *double-checks.* Yes? Huh. This is the most surprising entry for me so far, as Winnipeg comes out as a very poor ES team with middling special teams and elite goaltending. It's basically just Hellebuyck that is preventing them from being a bad team according to these numbers. I am not sure I agree with this so I will be very interested to see how this one plays out.

18. MINNESOTA WILD
:wild


ES Offense: 18th
ES Defense: 2nd
PP: 25th
PK: 13th
Goaltending: 30th
Overall Goal Differential: -8

Hey hey, it's the Wild. The offense is bad, the defense is good, the PP bad, the PK good, the goaltending ... bad? Surprisingly the numbers are not actually so good for Kahkonen, which is maybe why Seattle didn't take him. Cam Talbot is Cam Talbot. Mats Zuccarello is still a lizard.

19. MONTREAL CANADIENS
:habs

ES Offense: 15th
ES Defense: 4th
PP: 30th
PK: 19th
Goaltending: 22nd
Overall Goal Differential: -8

This isn't a surprise is it? I was more bullish than most on them last year, so after a Stanley Cup Finals appearance I now have to be the bear. I mean, I don't know, they're okay. Shea Weber is gone. Carey Price is ???? They do have Cole Caufield who is underrated by the system most likely, but I think this is a middling team that most expect to be a middling team.

20. SAN JOSE SHARKS
:sharks

ES Offense: 16th
ES Defense: 18th
PP: 7th
PK: 32nd
Goaltending: 10th
Overall Goal Differential: -9

This one, on the other hand, might seem like a surprise as I've seen a lot of people put them at the very bottom. But why? They are pretty decent at ES and as old as Karlsson and Burns are, they still provide a formidable threat on the PP. Unfortunately they take a lot of penalties and their PKing is not the same as it used to be. And yes, I am assuming Evander Kane is on the team and not suspended for whatever.

Most importantly, they have been absolutely sunk in recent years by completely terrible goaltending and while Reimer-Hill is not the sexiest of tandems, it should be an improvement.

21. ST. LOUIS BLUES
:blues

ES Offense: 20th
ES Defense: 19th
PP: 22nd
PK: 20th
Goaltending: 13th
Overall Goal Differential: -10

Another team that I don't have much to say about. They are just kinda bad all around? I am assuming Terasenko plays although I'm not even completely sure what the situation is with him. Brandon Saad seems like an OK addition but the forwards kinda fall off fairly quickly, and the same is true of the defenders. I don't know what to think of Binnington, really, but for what it's worth the model still likes him.

22. VANCOUVER CANUCKS
:nucks

ES Offense: 28th
ES Defense: 26th
PP: 5th
PK: 26th
Goaltending: 10th
Overall Goal Differential: -12

Finally. Good grief. I was really starting to sweat if they didn't pop up soon. This team looks like the team from two seasons ago, where ES play was very poor but the PP and the goaltending kept them afloat. People think this offense is so good but I think fail to realize just how much of the scoring comes from the PP; I was tracking it and at one point something like 40% of their goals came on their PP, leading the league by a lot. The Canucks are very good at drawing penalties, and have added another very good forward in Garland who also draws penalties at a high rate. Their PP should be very good, but at ES they have not been great at generating offense for years now, and it is because despite the firepower, it is hard to score when the puck is in your zone.

Unlike two seasons ago, the Canucks do not have Tanev/Edler, but instead have Myers/OEL, which looks like a total train-wreck. Hughes struggled defensively last year (I have a generous bounce-back projected) but no matter what some people say, Poolman and Hamonic are not Chris Tanev. Dickinson has some very good numbers and should be an improvement on Jay Beagle, but this still looks, on paper, like a team that will be spending a lot of time in their own end and relying on the PP to score goals, as well as on Demko/Halak to bail them out of trouble. Another concern is injuries, as Petey has to be seen as something of a risk at this point, and any team that spends so much time blocking shots and defending is bound to pile up the injuries, something that I thought the Canucks had learned by now.

There's no doubt that the top-six of Petey-Hog-Boeser-Horvat-Miller-Garland is very solid, but if you can't get the puck out of your own zone it doesn't much matter.

23. WASHINGTON CAPITALS
:caps


ES Offense: 14th
ES Defense: 24th
PP: 18th
PK: 12th
Goaltending: 24th
Overall Goal Differential: -13

Hey, you thought my Canucks projection was bad. What the hell is this? The team lost young goalie Vitek Vanecek to Seattle and then immediately traded to get him back, so I'm not entirely sure what the plan is in net, but between him and Samsonov the goaltending is a little suspect, with potential to be great as both players are young without much data to go from. The goalies are the only young part of this team. Is it ... a big secret that Alex Ovechkin is just kinda bad at this point? And they don't have a single defender under contract who is under 30. In fact, they barely have any forwards that are under 30, with Tom Wilson being the baby of the group. This might be the year where it crashes down on them and people declare the "window" over, if it wasn't already.

24. CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS
:hawks


ES Offense: 17th
ES Defense: 32nd
PP: 27th
PK: 9th
Goaltending: 6th
Overall Goal Differential: -14

So like, are they going for it this year? Is that the plan? Cause like, Marc-Andre Fleury can work some magic, but this team still looks like it kinda sucks? For the record, this projection is without Jonathan Toews, as the team still hasn't given a timeline on his return. I'm not sure that's a big difference maker at this point. This looks like a team that will give up a lot of shots and chances, so best of luck to Mr. Fleury in his future endeavours.

25. OTTAWA SENATORS
:sens

ES Offense: 13th
ES Defense: 20th
PP: 13th
PK: 14th
Goaltending: 28th
Overall Goal Differential: -15

You know, this team might not be so bad if they would stop believing in Matt Murray. Based on what I've read, the plan is still to go forward with him as #1. Surprisingly, the roster comes out as pretty middling until their goaltending just tanks it. Also, Michael Del Zotto, huh? Good luck with that.

26. LOS ANGELES KINGS
:kings

ES Offense: 13th
ES Defense: 20th
PP: 13th
PK: 14th
Goaltending: 15th
Overall Goal Differential: -16

It wouldn't totally surprise me to see LA do better than this. Subjectively, I kinda like their team more than the system does. But ... also I see its point, this team still looks kinda old and bad. Jonathan Quick probably won't get that much playing time but he is so terrible that even getting the usage he did last year will do damage. Only two more years left on that contract!

27. PHILADELPHIA FLYERS
:flyers


ES Offense: 10th
ES Defense: 16th
PP: 21st
PK: 10th
Goaltending: 32nd
Overall Goal Differential: -19

Another team that looks like it is kinda middling, except ... good f***ing God that goaltending. Carter Hart was an absolute disaster last year, so your solution is Martin Jones? One would certainly hope that Hart can rebound and get back to the potential he had a couple years ago, but if he continues to struggle this could get ugly. Again. Like ... he put up an 877 on a team where even Brian Elliott put up an 889, you know? Eight Seven Seven. I ... don't have anything more to say.

28. COLUMBUS BLUE JACKETS
:cbj


ES Offense: 31st
ES Defense: 22nd
PP: 26th
PK: 2nd
Goaltending: 27th
Overall Goal Differential: -20

At some point we have crossed into the bad team territory. People think Seattle has a bad offense, what do they think of Columbus? Hey, maybe Patrik Laine will show up this year. That would be cool.

29. DETROIT RED WINGS
:wings

ES Offense: 25th
ES Defense: 31st
PP: 31st
PK: 16th
Goaltending: 4th
Overall Goal Differential: -25

One of my favorite stats last seasons was that for an exceedingly long time, their leading scorer (in terms of points) had 0 goals. Hronek ended up with 2 goals by the end of the season, but, still, I have never seen that before. Nedeljkovic was a nice addition and Greiss has always had good numbers, but those guys aren't going to score any goals. Probably? Pius Suter was a decent under-the-radar addition too, he might score a few goals.

30. ANAHEIM DUCKS
:ducks

ES Offense: 29th
ES Defense: 29th
PP: 28th
PK: 23rd
Goaltending: 13th
Overall Goal Differential: -26

And now the teams that are bad at everything. I feel for John Gibson. He was a very good goalie for a few years and I don't think anyone noticed because it was basically completely wasted. I don't know if I want to be paying him 6.4M for the next six seasons, all things considered, but maybe he becomes a trade target for a good team at some point. Boy, this is a bad team. They also only seem to have five defenders under contract? So I guess their offseason isn't done.

31. ARIZONA COYOTES
:coyotes2


ES Offense: 24th
ES Defense: 25th
PP: 24th
PK: 1st
Goaltending: 31st
Overall Goal Differential: -27

I have overrated this stupid team like 30 years in a row and I'm tired of it, so I'm happy to see where they came out this time. Every time I try some exercise like this I end up with Arizona winning the division and then they go on a team retreat to the woods where they encounter a witch that curses every player to literally never be able to score any goals until the moment he leaves Arizona. Now I have them as being awful across the board so I'm sure Phil Kessel will somehow be a 40 goal scorer again and they'll win the division with Jay Beagle and Loui Eriksson as co-MVPs. By the way, I AM assuming Beagle and Eriksson play, as I haven't heard otherwise to this point. How hilarious is it that I actually have them as the top PK team in the league? I'm not even going to look into that. Whatever, nothing I say about this team is ever true.

32. BUFFALO SABRES
:sabres

ES Offense: 32nd
ES Defense: 15th
PP: 15th
PK: 28th
Goaltending: 28th
Overall Goal Differential: -38

... and yeah, still assuming a full season of Jack Eichel. So that's not good. Can you believe that Jeff Skinner contract? Six more years of $9M, and he scored 7 goals last year in 53 games. Woof. And we thought Eriksson was bad. Hell, that's worse than OEL. Kind of amazing how garbage this team is, all things considered. And with what's going on with Eichel, it's all just very sad. Also, apparently Craig Anderson still has a job. Who knew?

CONCLUSION

I am posting this for feedback, so please feel free to tell me where you disagree and ask me for a deeper dive into anything you think looks wonky. I am sure there are still some things I'm not considering or possibly some things I've implemented wrong. Please try to keep your feedback constructive and leave your "you just rank them there because you hate so-and-so" stuff at the door. I have put a *lot* of effort into this and did so without any knowledge of what the final output would be.

I fully anticipate bumping this thread after the season to evaluate no matter how bad it looks. We learn by evaluation of errors, no other way.
 
Last edited:

Lindgren

Registered User
Jun 30, 2005
6,317
4,360
Fascinating! Wonderful! Thanks so much for doing this.

Does Vancouver deserve a bump because of what you say about Arizona players leaving and because, obviously, OEL ...? No, that's probably not something you could or should take into the system.

If, heading into the trade deadline, the actual standings are looking like what your numbers predict, the Canucks will be 6th in the division, and there might be a new manager in place looking to trade JT Miller for youth and trying to find a way to get out of OEL and Myers (not to hijack the thread or anything).
 
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Ginger Papa

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Apr 21, 2019
15,440
72,550
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Great stuff @Melvin!

Appreciate the preamble to give explanation for the rankings. I had to go back a couple of times with some of them as my instincts kept kicking in :laugh:.

Belated congratulations on your move back to Canada & hope your new/latest job is going well.

Thanks again for all the work you put into this. Always nice to have material to chew on during the off-season.

Some memes as I’m not able to ”Like yet…
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krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
17,558
10,317
that is a solid effort. tough to put much weight on projections based on extrapolating divisional play in a shortened season but nice to see how it looks.
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,207
28,114
Vancouver, BC
Great stuff @Melvin!

Appreciate the preamble to give explanation for the rankings. I had to go back a couple of times with some of them as my instincts kept kicking in :laugh:.

Belated congratulations on your move back to Canada & hope your new/latest job is going well.

Thanks again for all the work you put into this. Always nice to have material to chew on during the off-season.

Some memes as I’m not able to ”Like yet…
View attachment 459848

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:laugh: thanks, man.

I thought I was the only one who set 15 alarms that are 5 minutes apart.
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,207
28,114
Vancouver, BC
Fascinating! Wonderful! Thanks so much for doing this.

Does Vancouver deserve a bump because of what you say about Arizona players leaving and because, obviously, OEL ...? No, that's probably not something you could or should take into the system.

If, heading into the trade deadline, the actual standings are looking like what your numbers predict, the Canucks will be 6th in the division, and there might be a new manager in place looking to trade JT Miller for youth and trying to find a way to get out of OEL and Myers (not to hijack the thread or anything).

Thanks. Not Arizona specifically, but I really did try to find a way to control for players switching teams being over/underrated by their prior team, but it's not as easy to do as you might think. Like, if I can project that OEL will be, say, 5% better than his team's average, well, what is his team's average? That is the very thing I am trying to project! So it's a chicken-egg problem. And after spending a few hours on it I just scrapped it for now.

But yes, my personal opinion is that every player once they leave Arizona will magically become good again as the witch's curse gets lifted.
 
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Melvin

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Using last years weird covid season results as the 'gospel' is folly..IMO..Last season was a 'one off'.

I am not using last year's weird covid season results as gospel. In fact, I am probably doing that less than anyone else on the forum. You can read what the methodology actually was and give me constructive feedback or you can troll and I will report you.
 

Melvin

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Canucks have to be at least equal to 19/20. They were +10

I don't really agree with that, but one thing to consider when trying to make this sort of comparison is that I am not counting shootout "goals," overtime winners or empty-netters. I don't know how that changes the 2019-20 number but it's not quite as simple as just taking the raw GF/GA from the standings.
 
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VanJack

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Jul 11, 2014
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Stopped reading when Melvin had the Kraken ranked fourth and the Penguins seventh. I mean looking at this Kraken team, who's going to score? And as far as the Pens are concerned, even the President Brian Burke is warning of of dark days ahead for this franchise whose best players are rapidly aging out.

Sorry, but it's back to the drawing board.
 

Melvin

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For the people who are outraged at where the Canucks rank, where do you put them and who (other than Seattle) do you have behind them that I have ahead?

Like, 22nd is not that bad! They were 24th last year, and 19th in the year before that you guys think was some sort of massive success. I thought pretty much everyone would have them in the 15-20 zone, no? So I'm probably only slightly lower than most. And enough things could change in the coming months to bump them up a bit.
 

Tables of Stats

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Nov 1, 2011
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I appreciate the effort here.

I especially like that you question your own model and call out where you're unsure of either an input or a result. We're very early on in trying to model the NHL so most statistical models seem like a rough fit at best. The only way to fix that is to keep running them, to keep looking for other ways we can measure player effectiveness, and using that to refine towards something with a solid predictive effect.

I'll be interested to see the updates as they come as well as your thoughts on why things are or aren't fitting the model.
 
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Melvin

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I appreciate the effort here.

I especially like that you question your own model and call out where you're unsure of either an input or a result. We're very early on in trying to model the NHL so most statistical models seem like a rough fit at best. The only way to fix that is to keep running them, to keep looking for other ways we can measure player effectiveness, and using that to refine towards something with a solid predictive effect.

I'll be interested to see the updates as they come as well as your thoughts on why things are or aren't fitting the model.

yep. I am quite mad at myself for abandoning the project last year as after the season when I went to review it, I wasn’t able to learn much as it was mostly some typos I’d made, missing some important players and not having updated rosters.

this time around I’m determined to have the rosters correct, fix any dumb bugs and then when the season ends it will be interesting to see what assumptions I made that were wrong, what’s sort of things lined up well and what didn’t, etc.

I expect the Kraken are overrated due to an inability to control for the quality of each players prior team, but I won’t know the extent of which this is true for another 10 months or so.
 
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Tables of Stats

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Stopped reading when Melvin had the Kraken ranked fourth and the Penguins seventh. I mean looking at this Kraken team, who's going to score? And as far as the Pens are concerned, even the President Brian Burke is warning of of dark days ahead for this franchise whose best players are rapidly aging out.

Sorry, but it's back to the drawing board.
That's the thing with models, they sometimes make strange predictions and it's up to the people analyzing the data to decide how much to trust them.

Did you read Melvin's entry on the Kraken? He admits that his model isn't sure what to do with expansion teams and that this is one of the teams that could easily fall well off the mark. I'm not sure what else he was supposed to say or how else you think he should have written his model.
 

Tables of Stats

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Nov 1, 2011
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yep. I am quite mad at myself for abandoning the project last year as after the season when I went to review it, I wasn’t able to learn much as it was mostly some typos I’d made, missing some important players and not having updated rosters.

this time around I’m determined to have the rosters correct, fix any dumb bugs and then when the season ends it will be interesting to see what assumptions I made that were wrong, what’s sort of things lined up well and what didn’t, etc.

I expect the Kraken are overrated due to an inability to control for the quality of each players prior team, but I won’t know the extent of which this is true for another 10 months or so.
Could you scrape the game logs from last season, use that to generate rosters, and run your model as if it had been running last season, or is that too much work for a hobby?
 

canucksfan

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Mar 16, 2002
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For the people who are outraged at where the Canucks rank, where do you put them and who (other than Seattle) do you have behind them that I have ahead?

Like, 22nd is not that bad! They were 24th last year, and 19th in the year before that you guys think was some sort of massive success. I thought pretty much everyone would have them in the 15-20 zone, no? So I'm probably only slightly lower than most. And enough things could change in the coming months to bump them up a bit.

The Canucks ranking is fine. Might be a tad too low by a few spots. Kraken is probably the worst.

It will be interesting to see how close the rankings are.
 

Melvin

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Could you scrape the game logs from last season, use that to generate rosters, and run your model as if it had been running last season, or is that too much work for a hobby?

Yeah, I could probably do a simple version of that. Scraping the game logs wouldn't be fair, as I don't have access to the 2022 game logs yet, so that wouldn't be apples-to-apples. I would have to go based on opening day rosters of 2021. But it's doable.
 

Tables of Stats

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Yeah, I could probably do a simple version of that. Scraping the game logs wouldn't be fair, as I don't have access to the 2022 game logs yet, so that wouldn't be apples-to-apples. I would have to go based on opening day rosters of 2021. But it's doable.
I was thinking that you could scrape game logs to create a 'perfect' data set and see how well your model could have matched reality if it was precognitive. It's not fair, but it does show the limits of how well your model can do and that might give you some fresh insight.
 

Melvin

21/12/05
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I was thinking that you could scrape game logs to create a 'perfect' data set and see how well your model could have matched reality if it was precognitive. It's not fair, but it does show the limits of how well your model can do and that might give you some fresh insight.

That's a really interesting idea. Thanks for that.
 
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MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
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Vancouver, BC
What would your rankings be if you removed goaltending?

We had this discussion last year about the volatility of goaltending and in your last year's rankings it's actually pretty interesting - you had Dallas #1 based on a huge goaltending boost that reversed this year but SJ right at the bottom based on a goaltending mess that did actually materialize.

Also how did you project LA's goaltending to get them at #28 at that position? I would be assuming that the excellent Cal Peterson would be getting 55-60 starts and be carrying the mail there as he did down the stretch last year.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
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i guess you could test the air of reality of the kraken ranking by seeing how this methodology would have projected the original vgk team.

i am in no way critical of this by the way. i give melvin a hard time often, but this is a lot of work and i think it produces a reasonable apples to apples comparison and a reality check for optimistic fan bases as to how much of a reach that optimism reflects. it is somewhat limited in reliability i think by the important last season of data being abnormal and perhaps less reliable, but it treats every team equally so a lot of that should come out in the wash.

bottom line, if you think the canucks are going to be markedly better than this ranking you are expecting that a lot of things are going to be better in the future than in the past. that's fine and certainly possible.
 

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