Maybe Tavares is the problem

[Gabriel426]

JT is one of the problems

 

[Puckstuff]

I just don't think he has chemistry with many players on our team. We have a lot of shoot-first players on this team. A playmaking C with grit at 6-7 m would be a much better piece IMO.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I just don't think he has chemistry with many players on our team. We have a lot of shoot-first players on this team. A playmaking C with grit at 6-7 m would be a much better piece IMO.

I sort if thought Toronto had the opposite problem: they tend to pass the puck all the way into the net. When Alex Kerfoot played in Toronto he would still look to pass even with an open net in front of him.

 

[thewave]

In hockey nobody is a problem unless they are grossly overpaid with a NMC. So yes

 

[ponder]

I think the biggest problem we have is the combination of:

• Too much $$ spent on 4 forwards, can't build a good enough supporting cast
• ... and, those 4 forwards don't step up enough in the playoffs, to make up for the weak supporting cast

The salaries our "core 4" make are truly nuts.

Top paid centres (by cap hit next season):

1. Matthews ($13.25)
2. MacKinnon ($12.6)
3. McDavid ($12.5)
4. Tavares ($11.0)

Top paid wingers (by cap hit next season):

1. Panarin ($11.64)
2. Nylander ($11.5)
3. Pastrnak ($11.25)
4. Marner ($10.9)

We've got 2 of the top 4 paid centres AND 2 of the top 4 paid wingers, which is insane. It's a crazy amount of cap to dedicate to 4 forwards, roughly half of the team's entire cap, and far more than any other team spends on their top 4 forwards. Not a single other team has even 2 forwards making $10 mil+ cap (Florida the closest with Barkov $10 mil and Tkachuck $9.5), while we've got 4 making WELL over $10 mil.

Maybe if they were playoff studs, who consistently step up big time in the playoffs, like MacKinnon, McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Marchand, etc., then it'd work, but they aren't. Or if they would take team friendly deals, again maybe all 4 on one team would work, but they negotiate extremely hard for some of the least team friendly deals in the league.

So I think it's clear that at least 1 has to go - we just have to sacrifice far too much in terms of defence, goaltending and forward depth to make the cap work, with these 4. And yeah, I do think the obvious choice, if we're trying to be legitimately practical vs. emotional, is Tavares:

• He's very clearly the worst player of the 4, by a massive margin, today
• And looking at all playoff stats for all players, on the Leafs, Tavares is clearly the worst of the 4 by far. By far the worst playoff PPG and +/-: Leafs playoff stats since the 04/05 lockout, min 7 GP
  • FWIW he also has by far the worst advanced stats, both regular season and playoffs
  • Also, Marner has the highest playoff PPG of any Leaf, and the 2nd best +/- (best of any forward, 2nd only to Rielly)
• Plus, Tavares is the oldest by a wide margin too, 6-7 years older than the rest. To start next season:
  • Tavares will be 34
  • Nylander will be 28
  • Marner will be 27
  • Matthews will be 27

Finally, if we trade Marner now, we simply won't get much of a return, because:

• He'd be a rental, just 1 year left on his deal
• He has a full NMC. This means the market for him will be incredibly limited, only the teams he allows a trade to, which may be none, one, or a few teams. In practice, this tends to mean extremely low returns, for rentals

While if we:

• Make no trades among the big 4
• Sign Marner to an extension
• Either let Tavares walk next offseason, or bring him back only if he'll sign for a very low salary (along the lines of the Max Domi extension, as he's roughly a Domi level player now IMO)

Then yeah, this coming year is a bit of a write off/longshot in terms of playoff success, but after that at least we'll have a bunch more years to try to build a winner around Matthews/Marner/Nylander. That should be more feasible without the JT albatross contract, we'll have a lot more money to fill out the team properly. While if we trade Marner (for a very likely trash return), then we're building around just Matthews/Nylander, and honestly ... that may simply not be enough to build a contender around. This team is very weak after the "core 4," and if you whittle that down to a "core 2," without much in return (Tavares walking and Marner brining a shit return due to rental + NMC), then it's just not a very good team IMO, may not even be a playoff team.

 

[Stephen]

I sort if thought Toronto had the opposite problem: they tend to pass the puck all the way into the net. When Alex Kerfoot played in Toronto he would still look to pass even with an open net in front of him.

They don’t seem to make the most efficient decisions with the puck. Over touch when there’s a shot option, go tunnel vision with shot selection when they could distribute and space better.

 

[Dog]

Leafs will look different if Tavares and Marner are gone. Tavares last season in his contract he could be gone. Marner could be gone as well the whole team could feel different after this season.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think the biggest problem we have is the combination of:

• Too much $$ spent on 4 forwards, can't build a good enough supporting cast
• ... and, those 4 forwards don't step up enough in the playoffs, to make up for the weak supporting cast

The salaries our "core 4" make are truly nuts.

Top paid centres (by cap hit next season):

1. Matthews ($13.25)
2. MacKinnon ($12.6)
3. McDavid ($12.5)
4. Tavares ($11.0)

Top paid wingers (by cap hit next season):

1. Panarin ($11.64)
2. Nylander ($11.5)
3. Pastrnak ($11.25)
4. Marner ($10.9)

We've got 2 of the top 4 paid centres AND 2 of the top 4 paid wingers, which is insane. It's a crazy amount of cap to dedicate to 4 forwards, roughly half of the team's entire cap, and far more than any other team spends on their top 4 forwards. Not a single other team has even 2 forwards making $10 mil+ cap (Florida the closest with Barkov $10 mil and Tkachuck $9.5), while we've got 4 making WELL over $10 mil.

Maybe if they were playoff studs, who consistently step up big time in the playoffs, like MacKinnon, McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Marchand, etc., then it'd work, but they aren't. Or if they would take team friendly deals, again maybe all 4 on one team would work, but they negotiate extremely hard for some of the least team friendly deals in the league.

So I think it's clear that at least 1 has to go - we just have to sacrifice far too much in terms of defence, goaltending and forward depth to make the cap work, with these 4. And yeah, I do think the obvious choice, if we're trying to be legitimately practical vs. emotional, is Tavares:

• He's very clearly the worst player of the 4, by a massive margin, today
• And looking at all playoff stats for all players, on the Leafs, Tavares is clearly the worst of the 4 by far. By far the worst playoff PPG and +/-: Leafs playoff stats since the 04/05 lockout, min 7 GP
  • FWIW he also has by far the worst advanced stats, both regular season and playoffs
  • Also, Marner has the highest playoff PPG of any Leaf, and the 2nd best +/- (best of any forward, 2nd only to Rielly)
• Plus, Tavares is the oldest by a wide margin too, 6-7 years older than the rest. To start next season:
  • Tavares will be 34
  • Nylander will be 28
  • Marner will be 27
  • Matthews will be 27

Finally, if we trade Marner now, we simply won't get much of a return, because:

• He'd be a rental, just 1 year left on his deal
• He has a full NMC. This means the market for him will be incredibly limited, only the teams he allows a trade to, which may be none, one, or a few teams. In practice, this tends to mean extremely low returns, for rentals

While if we:

• Make no trades among the big 4
• Sign Marner to an extension
• Either let Tavares walk next offseason, or bring him back only if he'll sign for a very low salary (along the lines of the Max Domi extension, as he's roughly a Domi level player now IMO)

Then yeah, this coming year is a bit of a write off/longshot in terms of playoff success, but after that at least we'll have a bunch more years to try to build a winner around Matthews/Marner/Nylander. That should be more feasible without the JT albatross contract, we'll have a lot more money to fill out the team properly. While if we trade Marner (for a very likely trash return), then we're building around just Matthews/Nylander, and honestly ... that may simply not be enough to build a contender around. This team is very weak after the "core 4," and if you whittle that down to a "core 2," without much in return (Tavares walking and Marner brining a shit return due to rental + NMC), then it's just not a very good team IMO, may not even be a playoff team.

Pretty much agree till the end.
Having MM extended or resigned will put us back in the same position as the past 5 yrs with having three forwards over 33mil. The only difference is not having a 4th forward making 7mil.
Yes, the cap is higher but that also apply to every other teams in the league.
Unless all prospects can contribute like Knies or Johnson in Dallas while being on ELC, our supporting cast will continue to be weak compare to other teams.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Leafs will look different if Tavares and Marner are gone. Tavares last season in his contract he could be gone. Marner could be gone as well the whole team could feel different after this season.

You are not allowed to talk about Marner here

 

[647Hockey]

Leafs will look different if Tavares and Marner are gone. Tavares last season in his contract he could be gone. Marner could be gone as well the whole team could feel different after this season.

The second JT, MM and whatever other crappy contracts are over next year, the team will have probably have $30M to play with.

Next season will be no different than this year. It'll be a filler year where they do fine in reg season, score a lot and fizzle out in the playoffs.

You can tell the team is itching to wait for the money to free up because all the signings and trades they've done lately (including goalies) are short term and cheap deals.

I'm going to assume (I know assuming is bad), that once the money frees up you'll finally see some effort into signing some bonafide defence and goaltending at a price. No more $2-5M filler guys hoping they overachieve like all stars or their flukey prime years 5 years ago putting the team over the top in the playoffs. They can rely on solid players who can just do what they do naturally.

 

[Arzak]

Another Marner thread, rofl.

No, JT, we always knew wouldn't be the best cap allocation at the end of his UFA contract as an older player.


Don't try to deflect from useless Mitch riding the most generous RFA contract in the league history.

 

[Arzak]

Sure Marner has his faults in the playoffs with him being scared but maybe he needs a leader to call his bullshit out and tell him to man up. JT is not that leader

Maybe getting rid of JT next year is the turning point of the franchise and the cap hit they need to get rid of.

Marner would so do himself a favor if he signed a team-friendly deal to take the pressure off him

We have a thread where we are blaming Keefe and Babcock for not properly motivating Mitch.

Now we have you here, telling us Mitch is playing scared hockey, but it's JTs fault for not calling his bulshit and tell him to man up?


You can't make this sh*t up, how about we blame Mitch for Mitch playing scared?


How are we still blaming others ? It's the coach telling Mitch to play soccer, it's JT, he should tell him to cut the bulcrap long ago.

Can we get, Nylander is to blame for Mitch crying on the bench thread next?


edit: We will get an enforcer like Reavo, Mitch won't be scared out there..Wait..

 

[Leafshater67]

No team with a 11m 3c will win anything. Not in salary cap hockey. Tavares performed fine but he was always a luxury they didn’t need and that cap hit prevented them from filling other holes.

 

[Welsh Maple Leaf]

Too much money for a role player. He's a 3C getting paid like a star.

 

[Arzak]

Too much money for a role player. He's a 3C getting paid like a star.

This thread is such a bulshit. Man is on the last year of 7 year UFA contract.

Mitch on the other hand is 11M RFA that can't shoot and refuses to play playoff hockey.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

No team with a 11m 3c will win anything. Not in salary cap hockey. Tavares performed fine but he was always a luxury they didn’t need and that cap hit prevented them from filling other holes.

He was the cart before the horse.

Dubas and Shanahan were complete failures.

 

[Racer88]

He was the cart before the horse.

Dubas and Shanahan were complete failures.

Shanny still is

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Shanny still is

He's essentially been fired.
Pelley is keeping him around just to provide some free labour. His contract will not be renewed obviously. This is his last year I believe.
I doubt he's allowed to make any major decisions.

 

[Racer88]

He's essentially been fired.
Pelley is keeping him around just to provide some free labour. His contract will not be renewed obviously. This is his last year I believe.
I doubt he's allowed to make any major decisions.

I sure hope you are right but I want to see a public flogging of him

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I sure hope you are right but I want to see a public flogging of him

His tenure has been an almost total failure on the ice. The Dubas theory of hockey was a total bust.

 

[ToneDog]

This thread is such a bulshit. Man is on the last year of 7 year UFA contract.

Mitch on the other hand is 11M RFA that can't shoot and refuses to play playoff hockey.

Regular season

Matthews 54g 41a 95p ($13.25m)
Marner 28g (LOL) 63a 91p ($11m)
Nylander 30g 42a 72p ($11.5m LOL)
Tavares 34g 43a 77p ($11m)

Playoffs

Matthews 34g 38a 72p
Marner 16g (LOL) 56 72p
Nylander 30g 35a 65p
Tavares 30g 30a 60p

$46.75m for 4 players who's playoff numbers are pedestrian. That's your problem folks. You are paying for super elite and getting MEH performance in the playoffs. Well dumb Shanny, Kyle and Tre.

 

[Nineteen67]

He's essentially been fired.
Pelley is keeping him around just to provide some free labour. His contract will not be renewed obviously. This is his last year I believe.
I doubt he's allowed to make any major decisions.

Free labour? They’re paying him quite handsomely.

His tenure has been an almost total failure on the ice. The Dubas theory of hockey was a total bust.

At least Dubas realised his way wasn’t working and tried to change. He wasn’t very good at it, but he tried.

 

[Arzak]

I think the biggest problem we have is the combination of:

• Too much $$ spent on 4 forwards, can't build a good enough supporting cast
• ... and, those 4 forwards don't step up enough in the playoffs, to make up for the weak supporting cast

The salaries our "core 4" make are truly nuts.

Top paid centres (by cap hit next season):

1. Matthews ($13.25)
2. MacKinnon ($12.6)
3. McDavid ($12.5)
4. Tavares ($11.0)

Top paid wingers (by cap hit next season):

1. Panarin ($11.64)
2. Nylander ($11.5)
3. Pastrnak ($11.25)
4. Marner ($10.9)

We've got 2 of the top 4 paid centres AND 2 of the top 4 paid wingers, which is insane. It's a crazy amount of cap to dedicate to 4 forwards, roughly half of the team's entire cap, and far more than any other team spends on their top 4 forwards. Not a single other team has even 2 forwards making $10 mil+ cap (Florida the closest with Barkov $10 mil and Tkachuck $9.5), while we've got 4 making WELL over $10 mil.

Maybe if they were playoff studs, who consistently step up big time in the playoffs, like MacKinnon, McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Marchand, etc., then it'd work, but they aren't. Or if they would take team friendly deals, again maybe all 4 on one team would work, but they negotiate extremely hard for some of the least team friendly deals in the league.

So I think it's clear that at least 1 has to go - we just have to sacrifice far too much in terms of defence, goaltending and forward depth to make the cap work, with these 4. And yeah, I do think the obvious choice, if we're trying to be legitimately practical vs. emotional, is Tavares:

• He's very clearly the worst player of the 4, by a massive margin, today
• And looking at all playoff stats for all players, on the Leafs, Tavares is clearly the worst of the 4 by far. By far the worst playoff PPG and +/-: Leafs playoff stats since the 04/05 lockout, min 7 GP
  • FWIW he also has by far the worst advanced stats, both regular season and playoffs
  • Also, Marner has the highest playoff PPG of any Leaf, and the 2nd best +/- (best of any forward, 2nd only to Rielly)
• Plus, Tavares is the oldest by a wide margin too, 6-7 years older than the rest. To start next season:
  • Tavares will be 34
  • Nylander will be 28
  • Marner will be 27
  • Matthews will be 27

Finally, if we trade Marner now, we simply won't get much of a return, because:

• He'd be a rental, just 1 year left on his deal
• He has a full NMC. This means the market for him will be incredibly limited, only the teams he allows a trade to, which may be none, one, or a few teams. In practice, this tends to mean extremely low returns, for rentals

While if we:

• Make no trades among the big 4
• Sign Marner to an extension
• Either let Tavares walk next offseason, or bring him back only if he'll sign for a very low salary (along the lines of the Max Domi extension, as he's roughly a Domi level player now IMO)

Then yeah, this coming year is a bit of a write off/longshot in terms of playoff success, but after that at least we'll have a bunch more years to try to build a winner around Matthews/Marner/Nylander. That should be more feasible without the JT albatross contract, we'll have a lot more money to fill out the team properly. While if we trade Marner (for a very likely trash return), then we're building around just Matthews/Nylander, and honestly ... that may simply not be enough to build a contender around. This team is very weak after the "core 4," and if you whittle that down to a "core 2," without much in return (Tavares walking and Marner brining a shit return due to rental + NMC), then it's just not a very good team IMO, may not even be a playoff team.

We'll have Top paid C and Top paid Winger if Mitch stays.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I just don't think he has chemistry with many players on our team. We have a lot of shoot-first players on this team. A playmaking C with grit at 6-7 m would be a much better piece IMO.

I sort if thought Toronto had the opposite problem: they tend to pass the puck all the way into the net. When Alex Kerfoot played in Toronto he would still look to pass even with an open net in front of him.

Our top 2 centres are unconventional in that they're both better shooters than passers whereas centres are dynamic and usually more playmaker.

If you could fix the D and swap Tavares off this roster for a guy like Nick Suziki for example, I would be psyched.

 

[ToneDog]

Pretty much agree till the end.
Having MM extended or resigned will put us back in the same position as the past 5 yrs with having three forwards over 33mil. The only difference is not having a 4th forward making 7mil.
Yes, the cap is higher but that also apply to every other teams in the league.
Unless all prospects can contribute like Knies or Johnson in Dallas while being on ELC, our supporting cast will continue to be weak compare to other teams.

I like what the poster wrote:

We've got 2 of the top 4 paid centres AND 2 of the top 4 paid wingers, which is insane. It's a crazy amount of cap to dedicate to 4 forwards, roughly half of the team's entire cap, and far more than any other team spends on their top 4 forwards. Not a single other team has even 2 forwards making $10 mil+ cap (Florida the closest with Barkov $10 mil and Tkachuck $9.5), while we've got 4 making WELL over $10 mil.

If we let Tavares go and resign Marner, we will have two of the 3 or 4 highest paid wingers and the highest paid centre (depending on what Drai and Ranta get). Paying three players with 8 years of playoff failure all that coin is still insane and will most likely not work.