Hopefully in addition to fighting he is willing to cheap shot thr best players on thr other team. That’s a lot more valuable than the fighting.
Prospect Info: Max Graham (C - #139 Overall - Round 5 - 2024 Draft)
- Thread starter Nubmer6
- Start date
Jason MacIsaac
Registered User
Watch the videos, I’ve seen a knee and a couple charges. At this stage he seems like a “I’ll do what coach tells me to do” type player
Team Concept
Registered User
Spot on analysis and totally agree with every point in here. I absolutely hate it when they draft these overagers. The kid was 20 years old last season. Look at what he did when he was 18. Not overwhelming to say the least.
The point no one is responding to is that it’s as certain as anything draft related can be that we could have signed him 12 hours later without wasting a draft pick on him. He had failed to be drafted in 2 prior drafts.
That being true, we could have swung for the fences to find a Bratt with that pick. Why waste a 5th round pick on a player you can sign undrafted.
That being true, we could have swung for the fences to find a Bratt with that pick. Why waste a 5th round pick on a player you can sign undrafted.
Don't know much about him maybe they were hearing otherwise or like something about him so much they took him a lot of picks in round 5 wash out Bratt is not your normal 5th rounder...Give him a shot honestly the kicking down of a prospect just drafted doesn't make any sense...time will tell
i hate to sound like a jerk about this but if it was that obvious, it probably would’ve happened. Safe to say they didn’t think he would stick around til the end of the draft.
Jason MacIsaac
Registered User
Why would he sign in NJ over, let’s say, Vancouver or Seattle?
I wasn’t kicking him down. I am kicking down our front office for its drafting in later draft rounds. Don’t waste these picks. I totally agree that you don’t find Bratt’s every day. That’s why you spread a wide net and take a number of high skill players who may develop - in the hope that one or two from each draft do. Or maybe every other draft.
We almost certainly could have signed him undrafted the next day. If this was a one off I wouldn’t be complaining. But this sort of thing characterized our drafting nearly continuously after the first 3 or 4 picks or so.
It shows a systematic weakness in Fitz’s operation.
He scored 40 points in 67 games despite being two years older than the next average player on the ice. He lacks any discernible medium-to-high level skill except physicality. We can say the odds of his being drafted were infinitesimal, except that NJ drafted him. I'm not going to argue it anymore because it seems mean-spirited, but it's similar to Baumgartner or Hurtig in the sense it's basically burning a pick for nothing.
This, exactly.
Poor-drafting teams throw darts at guys they like for superficial reasons (tough or big or ties to the organization or whatever). Smart-drafting teams are not taking chances, they are using the imperfect science of heavy scouting and feasible projection.
Obviously, players in the later rounds come with more questions than the top 10 picks. But if you draft enough kids with elite singular skills or at least projectable skill sets + high intangibles, you will get a few NHL players. That's how you draft a Blake Coleman or Jesper Bratt or Arseni Gritsyuk or whomever.
There is obviously less projection for a 20 year old than an 18 year old. And when a 20 year old is playing at a sub ECHL level it's tough to project them magically transforming into a far better player. There is simply no way a group of scouts sat around the same table in a room and agreed overwhelmingly that Graham was their guy. It's not possible. Same as for Baumgartner or Hurtig. And therein lies the systemic weakness.
We don't know what the true story is and never will. But the idea that Fitzgerald, wanting toughness, pointed to the WHL scout and said something like "who's the toughest SOB in your league?" And the WHL scout said "well, there's this Graham kid who is big and can really drop the gloves." I mean, it sounds absurd but it's still 1,000x more realistic than the idea a room full of scouts discussing this player at length and deciding overwhelmingly they wanted him.
Baumgartner was a small, over-ager who lacked any skill close to projectable to an average NHL level. Hurtig was a large over-ager who lacked any skill close to projectable to an average NHL level. Graham is a large over-ager whose only projectable skill is hitting and fighting other players. There's obviously something going on that needs to be fixed, it's impossible to pinpoint what exactly, but a good guess would be a lack of cohesion.
Following the Graham pick, Carolina picked Justin Poirier, who scored 50 goals in the QMJHL. There's no way a Canadian scout could not know this. Then, Carolina drafted LD Timur Kol, who is 6'3-200, plays great physical defense, handles the puck well and skates well. There is no way our Russian scouting, which has previously identified similar players in Barabosha, Orlov and Karpovich would not be aware of him. Then, Carolina drafted LW Andrey Krutov, a shifty and offensively gifted winger with top-6 upside. There is little chance our Russian scouting was not aware of him. How do we explain taking Graham over these players? I don't know. Maybe the Russian scout was deemed to have already gotten "his guy" on Silayev and now it was other scouts "turns". Maybe a cut-off was set at LD after Silayev which ruled out Kol. Maybe a cut-off was set at 6'0 which ruled out Poirier (5'8) and Krutov (5'10).
Again, we will never know what the true reason was and I will not pretend to. But there's no way a room full of scouts could all watch tape of Kol, Poirier, Krutov and Graham and discuss them and decide Graham was the most likely NHLer. It's just not possible. And therein lies a problem, and this problem needs to be fixed.
None Shall Pass
Dano moisturizes
There's value in having actual centers in the AHL, too. Sounds like an immediate way to get a young one. We don't have many (Any?) to begin with. And it's a 5th round pick, which is only slightly more than what you'd pay to trade for one anyway.
Sometimes you gotta go for need.
Sometimes you gotta go for need.
No
that's all fine but maybe after taking a lot of Russian players they wanted guys that would contribute quicker even if it's just Utica in the end....The Devils did great hitting in later rounds past few years with Russian players but we shouldn't act like we know for sure these guys can't or won't contribute in the future or that they would have not been picked by another team....
This is a good theory with Melovsky, who can become a good 3rd line AHL center.
If Graham plays in Utica this season, and that's a big if, I think he would project as a healthy scratch/4th line energy LW. My guess is that he returns to junior.
He is 20 but he is eligible to play in juniors again as an overage player.
JimEIV
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2003
- 67,281
- 30,059
Every single player in the AHL gets healthy scratched based on schedule at some point.
I don't think "healthy scratch" is a good description... If Graham gets 25/30+ AHL games this season that is success.
I don't think "healthy scratch" is a good description... If Graham gets 25/30+ AHL games this season that is success.
I highly respect the opinion of Steve Toddlves when it comes to scouting potential draft picks. There are others here who do a deep dive into the potential draft picks as well. Not a soul mentioned Graham.
This was the first line from Steve when responding to this selection."I do not like to put down amateur prospects, but at 20 years old Graham is already a borderline non-prospect. I cannot imagine what led the team to draft a double-over-aged forward who scored half-a-point-per-game in the WHL. I cannot imagine a scouting meeting where multiple scouts gave Graham the thumbs up."
The Utica Comets have been starved for quality centers since day 1 of the Comets/NJ affiliation. This guy will be the worst center they have provided Utica. As Steve has posted Melovsky will be a solid bottom 6 and probably #3 center for Utica. If he pans out that will be fine. The problem is they need a #1 for the first time since NJ has been with Utica. They have had a wealth of #3s and many times there were 2 or 3 of them here at the same time and all in the lineup at once in spots they could not carry.
I'm not high on Engaras as a #4, but Graham will be stealing his spot. Filip deserves it before this face puncher as he shown he can at least hold his own there.
Maybe they stick Graham on a wing vs the opponent's face puncher/dirty checker. That would at least keep him from a spot that would be much better filled by another acquisition while Engaras is #5 and goes back and forth between Adirondack and Utica or is a regular roster player carried as an extra.
The Comets have had guys who hard, were physical, protected mates, and took exception to foul play, but they could all play hockey. 2 examples were Geertsen and Vincent Arseneau. Mason was actually a decent AHL D-man with the hardest point shot on the team. Arseneau was a hard forechecking, defensive minded wing that killed penalties and could score a goal now and then as he had a decent shot and crashed the net. Both took umbrage with anyone trying to intimidate smaller offensive talents.
They currently have Sam Laberge who does the same. He is a hard forechecking, good back checking, workhorse, LW. He will hit when it is available, but doesn't go looking for it. He will also jump in to defend his mates at the exact moment or the next time he is out on the ice. He had 6G/13A/59GP along with 92 PIM.
They also signed Nathan Legare late last season and signed him to an NHL 2-way for this season. He is also a Leberge type player on the RW known for his physicality and willingness to drop the gloves. Again 2 guys who can play hockey and not known as goons but as tiugh players who will not tolerate shenanigans from opponents.
These hockey playing examples are not descriptions of Graham. I don't like to make presumptive opinions, but in this case I don't think I will be wrong. Adirondack would be a better place to find out how he fits at the pro level.
evnted
Registered User
- Apr 14, 2016
- 756
- 1,651
Truth be told, I’ve struggled with how to approach this report. One side of me wants to tear into the pick. A double overager who barely cleared a 0.60 pt/gp production rate? A player with no standout skill, and a long-term outlook that likely only ever tops out at a 4th line level on a good day? Tom found a lot of savvy ways to incorporate compete and physicality into the earlier picks without neglecting talent or upside in the process, but to me, no matter what you think of the player, this selection can only ever be seen as reactionary to the Hathaway’s and Rempe’s in the league constantly giving us trouble. And there’s reason to believe we even broke our board to pick him, too; Dennehy made a vague comment about reaching on a player, and Graham himself mentioned he was in shock at how early he went.
I can’t resolve the issue of pick management and overall draft strategy, nor is this even the place to do so. I am in complete agreement that there were many, many other options on the board that would have been a better direction to pursue. But I want to take a different route for this report, I want to try to sell everyone on the player. Ambitious, to put it lightly, but I keep seeing commentary that the only thing he offers is being big and physical, and that there’s nothing else redeeming about his game. I’m not about to come out and pitch this as a great pick by any means, but I think that’s an unfair characterization of the player.
Graham is an elite competitor. He relentlessly pursues puck carriers, he huffs it on dump-ins, and in the viewings I had, I don’t think I ever saw him pass up an opportunity to finish a check. To me, while many of his hits can definitely hurt, he’s not necessarily forechecking with this intensity to cause pain; rather, he’s trying to wear down the opposition and force defenders into making rushed decisions with the puck. And that does happen, especially when he combines it with his defensive stick. Graham is excellent at swiping at puck carriers in the process of closing in on them along the boards to generate an enormous amount of pressure to get the puck off.
When projecting physical play at the junior level, particularly for bigger kids, I always get a bit concerned over how well it’ll translate against stronger and more mature opponents. When it comes to Graham, I think it’ll be fine in the long run given how high end his physical instincts are. Sure, there’s no doubt he benefits from his 6’3” 203lb frame, but if you really deep dive his hits and what he’s doing in puck battles, he’s actually very good at leveraging his frame to buy space and throw the opposition off balance. He’s sturdy on his skates, he’s great at using his back end to create separation, and generally speaking he’s not so much trying to topple his opponent as he is trying to fend them off. That, to me, is someone who uses his size as a tool rather than a solution.
Let’s talk skill for a second, and yes there is some (well, a bit). There are aspects of his skating that are relatively impressive. I can complain about his first couple steps lacking power, I can critique his edges to a degree, and I can wish he incorporated more cuts into his game, but there’s no denying how much raw momentum he can generate once he gets going. Graham looks legitimately fast in transition, and when you couple that with how strong he is on his skates, and of course how big he is, that’s a pretty formidable presence coming down the ice. More intriguing, though, is his passing game. It’s not that he’s particularly creative or naturally talented, but his vision is good and his timing is borderline high end. Off the rush, he can delay and seamlessly thread cross-ice passes to the trailer. Coming out of puck battles, he knows the right moment to send it down low or to a teammate. Behind the net, he can spot options in front and find a lane to make sure the puck gets through. What he lacks in pure skill, he somewhat makes up for in feel for the game.
Of course, while I’ve largely tried to stay positive about the pick thus far, there’s plenty of things I need to rip apart now. He doesn’t really understand how to position himself offensively. He’s great at jumping on loose pucks and fighting for space around the crease, but he so commonly parks himself behind a defender or in a lane that’s obviously closed off that he isn’t always making himself a viable option for his linemates. Additionally, he doesn’t really project to have that much of a scoring touch. Even at this stage, if he’s producing, it’s probably from some net-front scramble or a softy the goalie let up. He’s just not that good it, and his offensive instincts don’t inspire much confidence, either. Tons of low percentage, get pucks on net type shots, even coming from range. His release isn’t bad, and his shots can have some power behind them, but he’s simply never going to be much of a scorer, particularly if you factor in his shaky hand-eye ability, which can see him outright whiff on pucks at times.
His defensive impact is a bit of a mixed bag. I don’t think he projects to be that much of a two-way threat long term, but at least now, there’s interest in supporting his own zone. He’s good at dropping back, he plays the penalty kill, he commits to shot blocks, and he has some idea of how to take away lanes. On the more problematic side, though, he’s way too stationary at times, he’s much more reactive than he is proactive, and he’s too often cheating up or trying to be the first man out of the zone, which is compounded by the fact that he lacks the recoverability to get back in time if play doesn’t go the way he’s expecting. I wish he applied the same work rate he has on the forecheck to his own zone play because he comes off a bit tepid right now. I don’t even think his game requires that improvement with anticipation or anything, I think he just needs more urgency to commit to pokes and step up in lanes.
So where does all of this leave us? Well, look, for as positive as I’ve tried to be, I do recognize that, in pretty much a best-case scenario, we’re really only ever talking about an okay 4th liner here. He’ll be a fan favorite energy line player who’s physical, loves to mix it up after the whistle, and is always ready to drop the gloves after a big hit, but that’s basically all I can ever imagine him being. I think his ability to leverage his frame, rather than rely on it, should give some optimism that his physical play will translate as the opposition gets bigger. I think his relentless pursuit of the puck should provide hope that he’ll at least have a legitimate role in the lineup if he’s getting shifted. I think his timing and vision with the puck should inspire some confidence that he won’t be an offensive black hole in the way most other goons/energy guys are. I have seen, albeit sparingly, all these elements come together to single-handedly force turnovers along the boards that he can immediately scoop up and get to a linemate for a scoring opportunity. It’s hard to call it generating offense from the boards, but with any sort of long-term consistency, something like that is still valuable.
For better or for worse, this pick perfectly aligns with Tom’s offseason strategy of getting heavier, edgier, and more violent. We all saw the video of him pounding the table demanding the amateur scouts find him passionate, competitive players, and Graham absolutely fits that description. I have to hope our staff is so confident in his ability to play up to a 4th line projection that they felt comfortable going early on him. Maybe I’m just being optimistic. If nothing else, he at least provides a bit of immediate help to a Utica roster that can use it, particularly down the middle. Again, I don’t think there’s much hope to rationalize the pick if you look at all the options we passed on to get him, but if we take the player as is, there’s a bit more than just a goon outlook to me.
I can’t resolve the issue of pick management and overall draft strategy, nor is this even the place to do so. I am in complete agreement that there were many, many other options on the board that would have been a better direction to pursue. But I want to take a different route for this report, I want to try to sell everyone on the player. Ambitious, to put it lightly, but I keep seeing commentary that the only thing he offers is being big and physical, and that there’s nothing else redeeming about his game. I’m not about to come out and pitch this as a great pick by any means, but I think that’s an unfair characterization of the player.
Graham is an elite competitor. He relentlessly pursues puck carriers, he huffs it on dump-ins, and in the viewings I had, I don’t think I ever saw him pass up an opportunity to finish a check. To me, while many of his hits can definitely hurt, he’s not necessarily forechecking with this intensity to cause pain; rather, he’s trying to wear down the opposition and force defenders into making rushed decisions with the puck. And that does happen, especially when he combines it with his defensive stick. Graham is excellent at swiping at puck carriers in the process of closing in on them along the boards to generate an enormous amount of pressure to get the puck off.
When projecting physical play at the junior level, particularly for bigger kids, I always get a bit concerned over how well it’ll translate against stronger and more mature opponents. When it comes to Graham, I think it’ll be fine in the long run given how high end his physical instincts are. Sure, there’s no doubt he benefits from his 6’3” 203lb frame, but if you really deep dive his hits and what he’s doing in puck battles, he’s actually very good at leveraging his frame to buy space and throw the opposition off balance. He’s sturdy on his skates, he’s great at using his back end to create separation, and generally speaking he’s not so much trying to topple his opponent as he is trying to fend them off. That, to me, is someone who uses his size as a tool rather than a solution.
Let’s talk skill for a second, and yes there is some (well, a bit). There are aspects of his skating that are relatively impressive. I can complain about his first couple steps lacking power, I can critique his edges to a degree, and I can wish he incorporated more cuts into his game, but there’s no denying how much raw momentum he can generate once he gets going. Graham looks legitimately fast in transition, and when you couple that with how strong he is on his skates, and of course how big he is, that’s a pretty formidable presence coming down the ice. More intriguing, though, is his passing game. It’s not that he’s particularly creative or naturally talented, but his vision is good and his timing is borderline high end. Off the rush, he can delay and seamlessly thread cross-ice passes to the trailer. Coming out of puck battles, he knows the right moment to send it down low or to a teammate. Behind the net, he can spot options in front and find a lane to make sure the puck gets through. What he lacks in pure skill, he somewhat makes up for in feel for the game.
Of course, while I’ve largely tried to stay positive about the pick thus far, there’s plenty of things I need to rip apart now. He doesn’t really understand how to position himself offensively. He’s great at jumping on loose pucks and fighting for space around the crease, but he so commonly parks himself behind a defender or in a lane that’s obviously closed off that he isn’t always making himself a viable option for his linemates. Additionally, he doesn’t really project to have that much of a scoring touch. Even at this stage, if he’s producing, it’s probably from some net-front scramble or a softy the goalie let up. He’s just not that good it, and his offensive instincts don’t inspire much confidence, either. Tons of low percentage, get pucks on net type shots, even coming from range. His release isn’t bad, and his shots can have some power behind them, but he’s simply never going to be much of a scorer, particularly if you factor in his shaky hand-eye ability, which can see him outright whiff on pucks at times.
His defensive impact is a bit of a mixed bag. I don’t think he projects to be that much of a two-way threat long term, but at least now, there’s interest in supporting his own zone. He’s good at dropping back, he plays the penalty kill, he commits to shot blocks, and he has some idea of how to take away lanes. On the more problematic side, though, he’s way too stationary at times, he’s much more reactive than he is proactive, and he’s too often cheating up or trying to be the first man out of the zone, which is compounded by the fact that he lacks the recoverability to get back in time if play doesn’t go the way he’s expecting. I wish he applied the same work rate he has on the forecheck to his own zone play because he comes off a bit tepid right now. I don’t even think his game requires that improvement with anticipation or anything, I think he just needs more urgency to commit to pokes and step up in lanes.
So where does all of this leave us? Well, look, for as positive as I’ve tried to be, I do recognize that, in pretty much a best-case scenario, we’re really only ever talking about an okay 4th liner here. He’ll be a fan favorite energy line player who’s physical, loves to mix it up after the whistle, and is always ready to drop the gloves after a big hit, but that’s basically all I can ever imagine him being. I think his ability to leverage his frame, rather than rely on it, should give some optimism that his physical play will translate as the opposition gets bigger. I think his relentless pursuit of the puck should provide hope that he’ll at least have a legitimate role in the lineup if he’s getting shifted. I think his timing and vision with the puck should inspire some confidence that he won’t be an offensive black hole in the way most other goons/energy guys are. I have seen, albeit sparingly, all these elements come together to single-handedly force turnovers along the boards that he can immediately scoop up and get to a linemate for a scoring opportunity. It’s hard to call it generating offense from the boards, but with any sort of long-term consistency, something like that is still valuable.
For better or for worse, this pick perfectly aligns with Tom’s offseason strategy of getting heavier, edgier, and more violent. We all saw the video of him pounding the table demanding the amateur scouts find him passionate, competitive players, and Graham absolutely fits that description. I have to hope our staff is so confident in his ability to play up to a 4th line projection that they felt comfortable going early on him. Maybe I’m just being optimistic. If nothing else, he at least provides a bit of immediate help to a Utica roster that can use it, particularly down the middle. Again, I don’t think there’s much hope to rationalize the pick if you look at all the options we passed on to get him, but if we take the player as is, there’s a bit more than just a goon outlook to me.
- Dec 20, 2018
- 22,473
- 49,787
Great report but I was curious about Graham being shocked, I’ve missed that.
Max Graham: Undrafted to NHL Draft Pick - Kelowna Rockets
Kelowna Rockets forward Max Graham is no stranger to taking the long road to get where he’s going. After going undrafted in the WHL Prospects Draft and passed over at the last two NHL Drafts, Graham had his name called by the New Jersey Devils on Saturday at the 2024 NHL Draft. Getting ready to…
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Guadana
Registered User
Yeah, some year it will be Sharangovich, some year it will be Gritsyuk. I think Grahame will hit his ceiling if he will have 1/8 of career's success Sharangovich and Gritsyuk have. Even if Graham will be second line AHL it will be hue success for him and its not even close to what Sharangovich and Gritsyuk did. We even not talking about Bratt.
All three are not typical 5th-6th rounders but if manager will not draft players with their potential he will not find his diamond from those picks.
And the problem with Graham is simple - if player is smart enough to think and play game well enough to have at least some hope to be reliable NHLer - he will produce on the junior level at his age. Graham didnt, its a waste of pick and its painful for organisation because two previous picks were spent for... more realistically role players on the position where organisation have enough solutions long term, there are no offensive depth of talent in organisation after Gritsyuk and Hameenaho, who is right winger too. And there is some organisation from our division who are drafting talented players pick after pick in this range of the draft.
So please stop trying to cherrypicking our draft decisions in the draft. Teams like Pens could do a lot more if they would have some prospect depth and talent to fill the holes, teams like Toronto cant make next step because they didnt have enough talent to make their roster better for free in situation where 4 players eat tonns of cap.
Our team needs young talents. Every "we need to compete now, lets trade all of our picks" fans are just impatient kids who dont understand what kind of problem organisation can face and how they should solve it. But who cares about them, Fitz himself, even if still trading second round picks and part of first round picks, still investing in draft. But with his investment he should start to overthink his draft strategy. Because for the team with one playoff appearance in 6 years and stucked cap we have very small prospect pool of forwards with a drop of NHL potential.
Last edited:
- Feb 5, 2010
- 48,138
- 19,198
I don't know that this pick is any better than just forfeiting the pick. I guess you can use players like this to motivate guys who actually have some shred of potential? Like "You better give 100% or I'm putting Max out there." or something.
I mean, I guess it’s somewhat comforting that other teams were even paying attention to the guy.Great report but I was curious about Graham being shocked, I’ve missed that.
Max Graham: Undrafted to NHL Draft Pick - Kelowna Rockets
Kelowna Rockets forward Max Graham is no stranger to taking the long road to get where he’s going. After going undrafted in the WHL Prospects Draft and passed over at the last two NHL Drafts, Graham had his name called by the New Jersey Devils on Saturday at the 2024 NHL Draft. Getting ready to…
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