Maurice Richard Trophy Tournament (1995-Present) Round 3: 2000 Pavel Bure vs 1996 Mario Lemieux

[blundluntman]

MATCHUP #4 (Round 3): Pavel Bure (2000) vs Mario Lemieux (1996)

Pavel Bure (1999-00):

Games Played	Goals	Even Strength Goals	Power Play Goals	League Wide Goals Per Game
74	58	45	11	2.75

Mario Lemieux (1995-96):

Games Played	Goals	Even Strength Goals	Power Play Goals	League Wide Goals Per Game
70	69	30	31	3.14

Round 3 Matchups
24 Matthews vs 09 Ovechkin Thread
23 McDavid vs 12 Stamkos Thread
21 Matthews vs 08 Ovechkin Thread
00 Bure vs 96 Lemieux

Round 2 Results

Click to read more...

 

[tabness]

Lemieux 1996, putting aside the obscenity of the total, was a powerplay merchant season where Pittsburgh basically stacked their top six (with an insanely good top six) to score score score and it burned them badly in the playoffs

Bure cherry picked like a mofo for sure but that isn't as big of an issue as what Lemieux did

 

[Zuluss]

Voted Bure, he was a one-man army that season - he did not need the support of four HOFers, he did not need the opposing team to be down a man. He just went and scored no matter how much the deck was stacked against him.

 

[bobholly39]

People get a bit too obsessed by Florida not having a lot of great players. The team was 7th in league for goals scored, and 8th in league for the power play, and 8th in overall standings. This was not a bad team, nor was it an offensively deficient team.

Bure had a really good season - but Mario Lemieux was unquestionably better.

Mario Lemieux was the best playmaker in the league, with almost 3x the assists Bure had. Oh yeah - he also scored 11 more goals, in 4 less games.

 

[centipede2233]

Bure had 50% more ES goals ina. Lower scoring era on a much crappier talented team. For those remarking about how bure cherry picked, the 2 line pass rule was still in play…

 

[bobholly39]

Bure had 50% more ES goals ina. Lower scoring era on a much crappier talented team. For those remarking about how bure cherry picked, the 2 line pass rule was still in play…

I never understood the obsession with ES.

Who cares? A goal counts for the same on the scoreboard whether it's scored on the powerplay, at even strength or shorthanded.

And if you want to talk about cherrypicking....Pavel Bure had 9 empty net goals, vs 2 for Lemieux.

Non-empty net goals scored:

Bure - 49.
Lemieux - 67.

This isn't close.

 

[centipede2233]

I never understood the obsession with ES.

Who cares? A goal counts for the same on the scoreboard whether it's scored on the powerplay, at even strength or shorthanded.

And if you want to talk about cherrypicking....Pavel Bure had 9 empty net goals, vs 2 for Lemieux.

Non-empty net goals scored:

Bure - 49.
Lemieux - 67.

This isn't close.

Owen Nolan was second with 44 goals to bure’s 58
Jagr was second with 62 goals to lemieux’s 69

Bure was more dominant at scoring relative to his peers then Lemieux was based on these two seasons

 

[bobholly39]

Owen Nolan was second with 44 goals to bure’s 58
Jagr was second with 62 goals to lemieux’s 69

Bure was more dominant at scoring relative to his peers then Lemieux was based on these two seasons

Yes - let's penalize Mario Lemieux for also being the best playmaker that year and helping his teammate score 60+ goals.

If Bure had 60 more assists in 2000, and had helped his own teammate score 55 goals, I too would now consider that a worst season for Bure...

And I assume you're just chosing to ignore the 9 empty net goals, because it doesn't fit your narrative? That's the most empty net goals scored in a season, ever.

 

[Video Nasty]

Similar to the McDavid vs. Stamkos showdown, I default to the guy who had more goals while also handing out nearly as many assists as the other guy had points. I can’t separate from the beauty of the playmaker beating the pure goal scorer.

 

[dr robbie]

Owen Nolan was second with 44 goals to bure’s 58
Jagr was second with 62 goals to lemieux’s 69

Bure was more dominant at scoring relative to his peers then Lemieux was based on these two seasons

It should probably be noted that the closest non-teammate to Lemieux in 96 was Mogilny with 55. Seeing as Lemieux also led the league in assists that year, it's not really fair to penalize him for Jagr's performance.

Lemieux also led the league in SH goals that season with 8, so it's not like he wasn't effective in other non-PP situations. Bure had a grand total of 2 in the 00 season.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Bure's season adjusts to 64 goals to Lemieux's 67.

So it kind of boils down to if you think peak Jagr plus hall of famers Ron Francis and Sergei Zubov are worth an extra 3 goals.

IMO, absolutely yes. Put Bure on a line with peak Jagr, and yeah, that alone is likely adding more than 3 goals.

 

[blundluntman]

This is a tough one tbh. Both were really great seasons but when you take things into context, neither are serious challengers to win the tournament IMO. I'd put them both a tier below a season like 08 Ovi.

Bure and Lemieux weren't really at the height of their powers by this point in their careers. Lemieux had to take games off to load manage and was pretty reliant on the powerplay with half of his goals coming that way; didn't hurt to have Jagr and Francis either.

Bure wasn't Vancouver Bure either and he cherry picked a fair bit. He also scored 9 empty net goals that year. Sure he didn't have Jagr/Francis, but 00 Florida wasn't as bad as 01 Florida, he actually had some decent players around him that season.

Both obviously still had their flashes of brilliance though. Lemieux still had the size, skill and IQ, but wasn't a world beater like his peak years. Bure wasn't quite as explosive but still had his speed, intensity and shot.

I'll go with Bure by a hair. I think he looked more dynamic than Lemieux as a goal scorer at this point of their careers and had less to work with.

 

[tabness]

Bure's season adjusts to 64 goals to Lemieux's 67.

So it kind of boils down to if you think peak Jagr plus hall of famers Ron Francis and Sergei Zubov are worth an extra 3 goals.

IMO, absolutely yes. Put Bure on a line with peak Jagr, and yeah, that alone is likely adding more than 3 goals.

Lemieux play by play shift by shift is probably the best goal scorer I've ever seen (him and the great Brett Hull) but that's at his best and certainly not in 1995-1996 lol

Bure probably hits a nice proper 70 in 70 games on that Penguins team