Maurice Richard Trophy Tournament (1995-Present) Round 3: 2000 Pavel Bure vs 1996 Mario Lemieux

[blundluntman]

MATCHUP #4 (Round 3): Pavel Bure (2000) vs Mario Lemieux (1996)

Pavel Bure (1999-00):

Games Played	Goals	Even Strength Goals	Power Play Goals	League Wide Goals Per Game
74	58	45	11	2.75

Mario Lemieux (1995-96):

Games Played	Goals	Even Strength Goals	Power Play Goals	League Wide Goals Per Game
70	69	30	31	3.14

Round 3 Matchups
24 Matthews vs 09 Ovechkin Thread
23 McDavid vs 12 Stamkos Thread
21 Matthews vs 08 Ovechkin Thread
00 Bure vs 96 Lemieux

Round 2 Results

Click to read more...

 

[tabness]

Lemieux 1996, putting aside the obscenity of the total, was a powerplay merchant season where Pittsburgh basically stacked their top six (with an insanely good top six) to score score score and it burned them badly in the playoffs

Bure cherry picked like a mofo for sure but that isn't as big of an issue as what Lemieux did

 

[Zuluss]

Voted Bure, he was a one-man army that season - he did not need the support of four HOFers, he did not need the opposing team to be down a man. He just went and scored no matter how much the deck was stacked against him.

 

[bobholly39]

People get a bit too obsessed by Florida not having a lot of great players. The team was 7th in league for goals scored, and 8th in league for the power play, and 8th in overall standings. This was not a bad team, nor was it an offensively deficient team.

Bure had a really good season - but Mario Lemieux was unquestionably better.

Mario Lemieux was the best playmaker in the league, with almost 3x the assists Bure had. Oh yeah - he also scored 11 more goals, in 4 less games.

 

[centipede2233]

Bure had 50% more ES goals ina. Lower scoring era on a much crappier talented team. For those remarking about how bure cherry picked, the 2 line pass rule was still in play…

 

[bobholly39]

Bure had 50% more ES goals ina. Lower scoring era on a much crappier talented team. For those remarking about how bure cherry picked, the 2 line pass rule was still in play…

I never understood the obsession with ES.

Who cares? A goal counts for the same on the scoreboard whether it's scored on the powerplay, at even strength or shorthanded.

And if you want to talk about cherrypicking....Pavel Bure had 9 empty net goals, vs 2 for Lemieux.

Non-empty net goals scored:

Bure - 49.
Lemieux - 67.

This isn't close.

 

[centipede2233]

I never understood the obsession with ES.

Who cares? A goal counts for the same on the scoreboard whether it's scored on the powerplay, at even strength or shorthanded.

And if you want to talk about cherrypicking....Pavel Bure had 9 empty net goals, vs 2 for Lemieux.

Non-empty net goals scored:

Bure - 49.
Lemieux - 67.

This isn't close.

Owen Nolan was second with 44 goals to bure’s 58
Jagr was second with 62 goals to lemieux’s 69

Bure was more dominant at scoring relative to his peers then Lemieux was based on these two seasons

 

[bobholly39]

Owen Nolan was second with 44 goals to bure’s 58
Jagr was second with 62 goals to lemieux’s 69

Bure was more dominant at scoring relative to his peers then Lemieux was based on these two seasons

Yes - let's penalize Mario Lemieux for also being the best playmaker that year and helping his teammate score 60+ goals.

If Bure had 60 more assists in 2000, and had helped his own teammate score 55 goals, I too would now consider that a worst season for Bure...

And I assume you're just chosing to ignore the 9 empty net goals, because it doesn't fit your narrative? That's the most empty net goals scored in a season, ever.

 

[Video Nasty]

Similar to the McDavid vs. Stamkos showdown, I default to the guy who had more goals while also handing out nearly as many assists as the other guy had points. I can’t separate from the beauty of the playmaker beating the pure goal scorer.

 

[dr robbie]

Owen Nolan was second with 44 goals to bure’s 58
Jagr was second with 62 goals to lemieux’s 69

Bure was more dominant at scoring relative to his peers then Lemieux was based on these two seasons

It should probably be noted that the closest non-teammate to Lemieux in 96 was Mogilny with 55. Seeing as Lemieux also led the league in assists that year, it's not really fair to penalize him for Jagr's performance.

Lemieux also led the league in SH goals that season with 8, so it's not like he wasn't effective in other non-PP situations. Bure had a grand total of 2 in the 00 season.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Bure's season adjusts to 64 goals to Lemieux's 67.

So it kind of boils down to if you think peak Jagr plus hall of famers Ron Francis and Sergei Zubov are worth an extra 3 goals.

IMO, absolutely yes. Put Bure on a line with peak Jagr, and yeah, that alone is likely adding more than 3 goals.

 

[blundluntman]

This is a tough one tbh. Both were really great seasons but when you take things into context, neither are serious challengers to win the tournament IMO. I'd put them both a tier below a season like 08 Ovi.

Bure and Lemieux weren't really at the height of their powers by this point in their careers. Lemieux had to take games off to load manage and was pretty reliant on the powerplay with half of his goals coming that way; didn't hurt to have Jagr and Francis either.

Bure wasn't Vancouver Bure either and he cherry picked a fair bit. He also scored 9 empty net goals that year. Sure he didn't have Jagr/Francis, but 00 Florida wasn't as bad as 01 Florida, he actually had some decent players around him that season.

Both obviously still had their flashes of brilliance though. Lemieux still had the size, skill and IQ, but wasn't a world beater like his peak years. Bure wasn't quite as explosive but still had his speed, intensity and shot.

I'll go with Bure by a hair. I think he looked more dynamic than Lemieux as a goal scorer at this point of their careers and had less to work with.

 

[tabness]

Bure's season adjusts to 64 goals to Lemieux's 67.

So it kind of boils down to if you think peak Jagr plus hall of famers Ron Francis and Sergei Zubov are worth an extra 3 goals.

IMO, absolutely yes. Put Bure on a line with peak Jagr, and yeah, that alone is likely adding more than 3 goals.

Lemieux play by play shift by shift is probably the best goal scorer I've ever seen (him and the great Brett Hull) but that's at his best and certainly not in 1995-1996 lol

Bure probably hits a nice proper 70 in 70 games on that Penguins team

 

[Regal]

Bure's season adjusts to 64 goals to Lemieux's 67.

So it kind of boils down to if you think peak Jagr plus hall of famers Ron Francis and Sergei Zubov are worth an extra 3 goals.

IMO, absolutely yes. Put Bure on a line with peak Jagr, and yeah, that alone is likely adding more than 3 goals.

Lemieux didn’t play with Jagr or Francis at ES though. Bure played nearly 27 minutes per game, which likely comes down if he’s on a separate line from Nedved-Francis-Jagr. And he was also never the PP player Lemieux was and the PP likely would have run through Jagr instead, further limiting his chances.

 

[Zuluss]

In 99/00, #5 was at 42 goals (Bure's lead is 38%). In 95/96, #5 was at 51 goals (Lemieux' lead is 35%).
In 99/00, #10 was at 36 goals (Bure's lead is 61%). In 95/96, #10 was at 47 goals (Lemieux' lead is 47%).
In 99/00, #10 was at 29 goals (Bure's lead is 100%). In 95/96, #20 was at 39 goals (Lemieux' lead is 77%).

And if we replace #2 Jagr in 95/96 by the best non-teammate (Mogilny, 55 goals), Lemieux' lead over the best non-teammate is 25%, still smaller than Bure's (31% over 44 goals by Nolan).

So, no matter how you cut it, Bure has a larger edge over the peers than Lemieux.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux didn’t play with Jagr or Francis at ES though. Bure played nearly 27 minutes per game, which likely comes down if he’s on a separate line from Nedved-Francis-Jagr. And he was also never the PP player Lemieux was and the PP likely would have run through Jagr instead, further limiting his chances.

Eh, you might be largely correct, but there is a bit of EV Jagr and Francis in the scoring logs.

Mario Lemieux 1995-96 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Scoring for Mario Lemieux for 1995-96

www.hockey-reference.com

Regardless, he has a hall of famer getting the assist or the goal on over 57% of his points. Whether you think that's worth the 3 goal difference over Ray Whitney and Viktor Kozlov I guess is debatable?

 

[tabness]

points together

Lemieux

1996 155 total
jaromir jagr              49 31.61%  12ev  36pp   1sh
tomas sandstrom           47 30.32%  24ev  20pp   3sh
ron francis               46 29.68%  10ev  36pp   0sh
markus naslund            28 18.06%  22ev   6pp   0sh
sergei zubov              20  12.9%   3ev  17pp   0sh
dmitri mironov            15  9.68%  11ev   2pp   2sh
bryan smolinski           14  9.03%   9ev   5pp   0sh
petr nedved               14  9.03%   4ev  10pp   0sh
norm maciver              12  7.74%   5ev   7pp   0sh
kevin miller               7  4.52%   7ev   0pp   0sh
unassisted                 7  4.52%   2ev   0pp   5sh
francois leroux            6  3.87%   6ev   0pp   0sh
chris joseph               5  3.23%   2ev   3pp   0sh
dave mcllwain              4  2.58%   4ev   0pp   0sh
jean-jacques daigneault    4  2.58%   0ev   4pp   0sh
neil wilkinson             4  2.58%   4ev   0pp   0sh
chris tamer                3  1.94%   2ev   0pp   1sh
brad lauer                 2  1.29%   2ev   0pp   0sh
corey foster               2  1.29%   1ev   1pp   0sh
dave roche                 2  1.29%   2ev   0pp   0sh
chris wells                1  0.65%   1ev   0pp   0sh
glen murray                1  0.65%   1ev   0pp   0sh
joe dziedzic               1  0.65%   1ev   0pp   0sh
richard park               1  0.65%   1ev   0pp   0sh

Bure

2000 91 total
viktor kozlov             32 35.16%  26ev   6pp   0sh
ray whitney               28 30.77%  18ev  10pp   0sh
robert svehla             24 26.37%  18ev   6pp   0sh
scott mellanby            15 16.48%  11ev   4pp   0sh
jaroslav spacek           14 15.38%   9ev   5pp   0sh
unassisted                 7  7.69%   5ev   1pp   1sh
bret hedican               4   4.4%   4ev   0pp   0sh
mike sillinger             4   4.4%   3ev   1pp   0sh
oleg kvasha                4   4.4%   4ev   0pp   0sh
mike wilson                3   3.3%   3ev   0pp   0sh
radek dvorak               3   3.3%   2ev   0pp   1sh
ryan johnson               3   3.3%   3ev   0pp   0sh
lance pitlick              2   2.2%   2ev   0pp   0sh
mark parrish               2   2.2%   1ev   1pp   0sh
peter worrell              2   2.2%   1ev   1pp   0sh
ray sheppard               2   2.2%   1ev   1pp   0sh
rob niedermayer            2   2.2%   2ev   0pp   0sh
todd simpson               2   2.2%   2ev   0pp   0sh
dan boyle                  1   1.1%   1ev   0pp   0sh
len barrie                 1   1.1%   1ev   0pp   0sh

as we all know the linemate situation is night and day

situation of goal scoring

• blowout: goal scored means leading by 4 or more
• insurance: goal scored means leading by 2 or 3
• go ahead: goal scored means leading by 1
• tie: goal scored means game tied
• comeback: goal scored means trailing by 1
• rally: goal scored means trailing by 2 or more

Lemieux

1996 66 total
blowout:      11 16.67%
insurance:    17 25.76%
go ahead:     21 31.82%
tie:           7 10.61%
comeback:      4  6.06%
rally:         6  9.09%
first:         9 13.64%
second:        6  9.09%

Bure

2000 58 total
blowout:       5  8.62%
insurance:    22 37.93%
go ahead:     28 48.28%
tie:           1  1.72%
comeback:      0     0%
rally:         2  3.45%
first:        15 25.86%
second:        1  1.72%

so while Bure certainly racked up those empty netters which is gross he scored generally more important and timely goals rather than blowout goals

28 go ahead goals is insane, as a comparison with other big goal scorers see this topic:

Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

The Great One is the best goalscorer ever. Instead of taking low-percentage or medium-percentage shots he would set up a high-percentage play. If he wanted to score 110 regular season goals he probably could have, but it would have been at the detriment of his overall point totals and the...

forums.hfboards.com

Kurri's peak "important" (tying/go ahead) goal scoring is like Bossy's, high twenties/low thirties.

Brett Hull has a pretty amazing 1990-1991 season (otherwise in high twenties/low thirties): 39 go ahead goals alone seems to be more than other players go ahead and tying combined! He then adds 14 tying goals to those 39. A real 50 goal scorer lol

Ovechkin is pretty consistently ranging from in the low twenties to low thirties for his 50 goal years throughout his career (tops out at 32 twice in 2006 and 2008). Honestly thought he'd do better in an era where the scores are closer.

Bobby Hull tops out in the low to mid twenties. Also thought he'd do better given the era.

Lemieux tops out in the low thirties.

Bure is so interesting. Tops out in the low thirties, but look at 1999-2000. 28 go ahead goals! Sadly only 1 tying lol!

Esposito tops out in the low thirties.

Mogilny 36 in 1993 is impressive.

Selanne tops out in the low thirties.

Stamkos tops out in the high twenties.

Yzerman tops out in the high twenties.

Jagr tops out in the high twenties.

Nicholls tops out in the mid twenties.

Lafleur tops out in the low/mid twenties.

Dionne tops out in the high twenties.

Bondra tops out in the low thirties.

Leclair tops out at thirty.

Sakic tops out in the low thirties.

Gordie Howe tops at low twenties, Maurice Richard low to mid twenties, Jean Beliveau high teens, honestly surprising to see the original six players not do a little better here, even accounting for the shorter seasons.

The data is from the NHL JSON stats APIs, and some games are missing (every season has missing games except the early ones before 1942-1943). So things might be slightly different, a preemptive disclaimer that I was not trying to nickel and dime your favorite player.

 

[Regal]

Eh, you might be largely correct, but there is a bit of EV Jagr and Francis in the scoring logs.

Mario Lemieux 1995-96 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Scoring for Mario Lemieux for 1995-96

www.hockey-reference.com

Regardless, he has a hall of famer getting the assist or the goal on over 57% of his points. Whether you think that's worth the 3 goal difference over Ray Whitney and Viktor Kozlov I guess is debatable?

12 points with Jagr and 10 with Francis out of 74 ES points. I mean that’s most likely only in specific situations.

57% is mainly due to playing on the same PP, but PP scoring is often situational. It’s hard to know how much the PP teammate advantage would help Bure who wasn’t the precision PP shooter Lemieux was. His PP goals would likely go up, but Bure’s minutes at ES would also go down which would also negatively affect his ES goals. Bure also had 9 empty net goals, which doesn’t necessarily stay with more options at the end of games. I tend to think both of them were in situations that were better for each of them that the others would have been.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Lemieux since he also lead the league in assists.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Bure takes this

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux led goals points and assists. Easily him

 

[Ignatius]

Yes - let's penalize Mario Lemieux for also being the best playmaker that year and helping his teammate score 60+ goals.

Playmaking has nothing to do whatsoever with this thread and poll.

Why do people keep bringing up things not related to goal scoring in goal scoring exclusive discussion threads?

 

[Video Nasty]

Playmaking has nothing to do whatsoever with this thread and poll.

Why do people keep bringing up things not related to goal scoring in goal scoring exclusive discussion threads?

Unfortunately it does.

No matter how much one wants to, you can’t separate them. I presume that those of us bringing up playmaking are doing so because of the different mindset that comes with scoring goals.

When one player is out there hunting for goals while the other is looking to make the best play and scores a similar amount of goals or more, it makes the playmaker more impressive by default.

 

[Ignatius]

Unfortunately it does.

No matter how much one wants to, you can’t separate them. I presume that those of us bringing up playmaking are doing so because of the different mindset that comes with scoring goals.

When one player is out there hunting for goals while the other is looking to make the best play and scores a similar amount of goals or more, it makes the playmaker more impressive by default.

Interesting take, especially for a Maurice Richard Trophy thread.

Perhaps this is like awarding the Norris Trophy based on offense vs. defense vs. a combination of both, etc. it has been hard to know precisely how and why that award gets handed out over the past two decades.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lol lemieux was on pacd for 81 goals 189 points. Love bure... but this is not even close