Confirmed with Link: Matt Roy 6x5.75

[Lou Sassole]

One underrated thing about the Ovechkin captaincy is how he's pretty much always kept a good room. I can't recall current or former players having anything negative to say about it since maybe the Boudreau era?

Agreed, I do worry a little, because I think Oshie is also a huge part of keeping the culture positive.

 

[Calicaps]

Okay—- suit yourself.

My post was for the masses, I shouldn’t have quoted you specifically. So I removed it.

Far as “ignore” for posters? As I’ve stated, there is only one. And candidly it was getting far far far too tiresome to watch their posts and not be able to respond to them. Since *they* have such a robust ignore list themselves.

It was just easier to ignore them back. So here we are.

Anyway — some people just like to simultaneously gripe while also projecting that they are the smartest people in the room. Which is fine. Many people fit that bill, sometimes me included. But then shutting people out whose commentary you cannot manage? Well, yeah. And by manage, I mean actually communicating with.

Back to Ovechkin — @Calicaps made such a good point, and one I truly don’t remember anyone making. He’s been a terrific leader and captain for this franchise. And that says nothing about his abilities on the ice (tho that does equal teammates “listening” to him, I suppose)

I don't think that was me... I think I just piled on. But Ovi's leadership is so underrated. He wanted to be the captain, and, especially under Trotz (credit where it's due) he really leaned into it.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

It was nice when we would get NHL star vets wanting to come to the Caps on a discount to play with Ovie.

 

[usiel]

If you have me on ignore let me know kthxbye. I think @txpd RIP was the only one I ignored in brief stints because he would often just take an contrarian view to spur conversation. I used to poke the bear on his strict no fighting stance especially knowing he used to proclaim to be the one person in the arena purposefully looking away from all fights back in the 80's. Saying it was too dangerous to have in the game. Yet was a race car driver. I do find it hilarious to come here and always see everyone in character. Me? You know I need blood and gore! Couple that with hits sticks on boards a cup every 40 years and I'm happy.

I like how we have already paired up Roy and Chik.

txpd was the only ever poster that I occasionally had on the ignore list when I was not mod in this forum. His post writing prose really rubbed me the wrong way which is a hilariously dumb reason. Though that was many years ago and not the last few he was around.

Tbh honest I wish there wasn't an ignore function just learn to skip a poster's post you don't want to read.

 

[Hivemind]

No, you were critical of this specific contract, then tied it to two other past contracts, then made the same point about Oshie, then pointed with dissatisfaction at the LTIR numbers, then the rare dead cap we took on to rid ourselves of our worst contract, and so on.

So no, you didn't say "GMBM is a poor GM." You just pointed to like 8 examples of his work that you find... subpar? Shitty? Ill-advised? Dumb?

You pick the word and equivocate however you'd like. You commented on a thing, we brought in context because that's how conversations go, then you broadened your point accordingly. I didn't say you think he's a poor GM. I said you were using hindsight to bag on him, because you were. It would've taken a crystal ball or a time machine to outright avoid some of the missteps you alluded to.

I started with two easy examples that all Caps fans should be familiar with to illustrate my rationale. I also brought up Marc-Eduard Vlasic and TJ Brodie as further examples, neither of which have anything to do with GMBM. This wasn't a post to bash GMBM, and the comparisons to GMBM came when other posters (such as yourself) essentially came to the rush to say "well GMBM is having a great off-season, therefor you can't say anything that we perceive as negative." Come on dude, you know that's a bad faith argument. It was others who brought up whether or not GMBM can get out of bad contracts, and I simply stated my difference of opinion there as a response. I'm not so sure why you're actively trying to make this into some bigger deal than it is.

Okay, but there's some hubris in that, Hive. The owner of the club publicly announced that this is what we were going to be doing, years ago now. Like it or not, it's the GM's job to execute that gameplan.

Good thing this isn't a "Hive bashes GMBM" thread, then. If you want to blame ownership for my dissastisfaction with the team's middle course, then go ahead. You're the one who's assigning blame to GMBM in this thread, not me.

We could see it, too. And we know that you would have pulled the trigger at the exact right moment and made the exact right trade, but we were too sentimental for all that.

It wasn't a trade, it was the Seattle expansion draft. You know, the win-win destination where the Capitals get Oshie's best years, but dodge out of slow grind at the end. And they do so in a way that allows Oshie to land in a family-friendly spot with a hometown connection and serve as the Kraken's first face of the franchise and (presumably) team captain. It was a nice way to do right by both the franchise and the player. But keep going on with your big grandstanding about sentimentality, as if I didn't care for Oshie.

You seem to be attributing a lot of your own perceptions into my opinions, rather than just taking what I'm saying at face value. Did I make a comparison to Matt Niskanen and his decline? Absolutely. But I've also stated that Matt Niskanen is the best UFA signing in Capitals history. I understand that sometimes you have to give out more term than you would prefer on a contract to get the deal done, just like they did with Nisky. But that doesn't mean we can't commetn about our hesitance towards the length of the deal. So how about just taking my comment at face value, then?

 

[Jags]

So how about just taking my comment at face value, then?

Your original comment had no value. You're quibbling over a couple extra years of term that Roy would have gotten anywhere else. It's either give him those years or miss out altogether. We chose the route that improves our team.

Clutching your pearls over those years is made even sillier by Mac's consistent history of not only unloading players in those situations, but also getting real value for them. There's very little risk in this deal at all.

And let's all gather 'round the campfire and listen to Hive's fairytale about Oshie The Kraken! This is an idea that made sense on paper to fans because of where Oshie lived as a kid. Zero info about what Oshie or the Caps actually wanted and zero info about who Seattle would have taken if he were exposed. It all fit together perfectly in your head, but it obviously wasn't a thing out here in the real world.

But by all means, keep bitching about things that either aren't real or don't matter. It's captivating.

 

[Hivemind]

Your original comment had no value. You're quibbling over a couple extra years of term that Roy would have gotten anywhere else. It's either give him those years or miss out altogether. We chose the route that improves our team.

Clutching your pearls over those years is made even sillier by Mac's consistent history of not only unloading players in those situations, but also getting real value for them. There's very little risk in this deal at all.

And let's all gather 'round the campfire and listen to Hive's fairytale about Oshie The Kraken! This is an idea that made sense on paper to fans because of where Oshie lived as a kid. Zero info about what Oshie or the Caps actually wanted and zero info about who Seattle would have taken if he were exposed. It all fit together perfectly in your head, but it obviously wasn't a thing out here in the real world.

But by all means, keep bitching about things that either aren't real or don't matter. It's captivating.

My original comment has as much value as anyone else's comments in this thread. Why is it that a comment about a contract being too long is somehow less valuable than a comment that reads "It is crazy how some sports fans literally think any contract beyond 2 years is too long and risky." I guess speaking in empty platitudes or puffing up GMBM is the only way for you to think a comment has value?

And, once again, I don't have the same rose-colored view of "unloading players" that you do, especially not "getting real value" for them. A 3rd round pick while we're still holding the bag on 50% of a contract is not real value. Eating seven years of a worse contract is not real value. Having to package up your 26 year-old goalie to unload your $5.5M defenseman is not real value. Moreover, the structure of this contract makes it very hard to buyout, which also makes it harder to move Roy near the end of the contract (it precludes a pure dump trade like they did with Orpik to Colorado). If Washington or another team were to try to buyout Roy near the end of the contract, they end up with minimal cap savings.

So there's absolutely risk with this deal.

And, to be clear, I like this deal. But pointing out the risk in the deal is a legitimate viewpoint, whether or not you want to admit it. If I don't point out the risk ahead of time, you will claim I'm "using hindsight to bag on him," but if I do point out the risk apparently I'm "bitching about things that aren't real or don't matter." So pick a lane.

(As for Oshie, I was mostly rebuking your ridiculous strawman argument that somehow you're more "sentimental" to our players by pointing out that I wasn't trying to get him traded to Manitoba for a box of peanuts)

 

[Ridley Simon]

Your original comment had no value. You're quibbling over a couple extra years of term that Roy would have gotten anywhere else. It's either give him those years or miss out altogether. We chose the route that improves our team.

Clutching your pearls over those years is made even sillier by Mac's consistent history of not only unloading players in those situations, but also getting real value for them. There's very little risk in this deal at all.

And let's all gather 'round the campfire and listen to Hive's fairytale about Oshie The Kraken! This is an idea that made sense on paper to fans because of where Oshie lived as a kid. Zero info about what Oshie or the Caps actually wanted and zero info about who Seattle would have taken if he were exposed. It all fit together perfectly in your head, but it obviously wasn't a thing out here in the real world.

But by all means, keep bitching about things that either aren't real or don't matter. It's captivating.

Preach!

 

[Jags]

I guess speaking in empty platitudes or puffing up GMBM is the only way for you to think a comment has value?

No, lots of comments have value. Pointing to something that happens all the time and is 100% typical and talking about it like it's something provocative is pointless. Coveted 29-year-old NHL free agents getting a contract that lasts till 20 minutes after their 35th birthday happens all the time. 100% typical.

A 3rd round pick while we're still holding the bag on 50% of a contract is not real value.

On a deal anyone would have given him at the time. Again, looking at it with the benefit of hindsight is really the only way to reach that conclusion. He gave him the contract anyone would have, given his trajectory. In the first year of that deal, he was our most productive forward in the run to our only Cup. When it turned out the way it did, Mac moved a contract and player we all thought were immovable, ridding us of a problem guy and freeing up 4m in cap space. The only way to avoid this particular issue would have been with a time machine.

Eating seven years of a worse contract is not real value.

Pure prognostication. Might turn out that way, might not. He'll likely be an overpay for us, but that's mitigated mightily by the guy we moved out and the guy he's replacing, at least for the next 3 years. If he gets his form back he's an asset regardless, and tradable if he wants to go. Also the only way to add a player of his potential caliber without giving up any assets. Costs us cap space we have.

Non-issue at the moment. For this particular complaint to be justified, you would need a time machine...

Having to package up your 26 year-old goalie to unload your $5.5M defenseman is not real value.

Rewriting the history books on this one. We couldn't pay Grubauer and had goalie prospects we liked in the system. We were losing him regardless (many thought he'd be taken in expansion), and Mac clearly had a bigger plan in mind for Orpik. He used Grubauer to skirt the rules and turn a $5.5m player into a $1m player.

That was a good trade, and a set of moves that made the league go, "Hey, wait a minute, not sure you can do that!" And it made us snicker.

So that one's historical fiction. What's next?

Moreover, the structure of this contract makes it very hard to buyout, which also makes it harder to move Roy near the end of the contract

We don't buy out contracts, and look at the deals handed out to coveted players his age. Not just defensemen, every position. And not just this year, every year. They ALL get term, Hive. Every guy in his position lobbies hard for max term. We didn't give it to him, the number is great for the player he is right now, the cap will increase with the potential decline in play you're worried about, and our GM pretty much never gets left "holding the bag," no matter how much you want to spin the past.

Saying this contract is too long is saying MOST free agent contracts are too long. This happens all the time, to every team. That extra year is only "bad" if it bucks the trend of FA contracts in some way. It doesn't. It's absolutely typical, and a contract every pundit out there worth a toss is saying was a big win for the Caps.

Not a great list of examples, also leaves out the many, many times Mac moved aging players for nice returns...

As for Oshie, I was mostly rebuking your ridiculous strawman argument that somehow you're more "sentimental" to our players

Which, as I recall, was me responding to your statement that you'd have moved Oshie years ago, a statement that made clear your dispassionate view of the player that you know is not shared by the team or its fanbase. Pointing to your lack of sentimentality in response to that statement is akin to pointing to a firetruck and saying, "That's red."

Look, I might be a bit of a schmuck on this point. You didn't invent that narrative. We talked about that possibility a lot that year. But we know now that it wasn't what he wanted. I think the team would have exposed him if he wanted to go. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that definitely feels like the level of respect Mac has for guys that want or need a change. We've seen it before.

So it seems clear to me that Oshie wanted to stay. He said so publicly, though I concede that that might just be what one says under those circumstances. Still, exposing him with the expectation that he'd be taken when he wanted to stay isn't in any way sentimental, hence my willingness to be schmucky.

 

[Hivemind]

No, lots of comments have value. Pointing to something that happens all the time and is 100% typical and talking about it like it's something provocative is pointless. Coveted 29-year-old NHL free agents getting a contract that lasts till 20 minutes after their 35th birthday happens all the time. 100% typical.

Where did I say it was "provocative?" It's certainly no more "provocative" than posts like yours defending every single move.

(And remember, at the time the initial post was made we thought it was a 7 year deal)

Again, looking at it with the benefit of hindsight is really the only way to reach that conclusion

So I'm not allowed to post comments about contracts being too long before they kick in because then (to quote you later) it's "pure prognostication." But if I post about contracts during or after the fact it's the "benefit of hindsight?" So when exactly are we supposed to talk about contracts?

And I wasn't complaining that Kuznetsov was signed. I was simply pointing out that contracts have bitten us in the past (and this one is still biting us). It's two perspectives on the same thing. You view that paying 50% of Kuznetsov's contract so he can play for a division rival is a good thing. I view it as being saddled with a contract, and an example of some of the risk involved.

Pure prognostication. Might turn out that way, might not. He'll likely be an overpay for us, but that's mitigated mightily by the guy we moved out and the guy he's replacing, at least for the next 3 years. If he gets his form back he's an asset regardless, and tradable if he wants to go. Also the only way to add a player of his potential caliber without giving up any assets. Costs us cap space we have.

We've already seen how PLD played in the first year of this contract (bad enough that he was considered a buyout target around the league, and the GM who just paid a fortune for him unloaded him right away). So it's not just "prognostication." And even "getting back to form" - $8.5M is simply more than a 60 point guy is worth. Even in his Winnipeg seasons (his peak scoring so far), he's getting outscored by guys like Vincent Trochek, Chandler Stephenson, and Dylan Strome.

I'd rather be saddled with a $5.25M contract than a $8.5M one. More to the point, I'd rather be saddled with a bad contract for 3 years than 7. Regardless of empty promises made to Ovechkin, this team isn't going to be competing for Cups in the next 3 years. However, an anchor contract 5, 6, or 7 years from now could absolutely impact this team when they're aiming to contend again.

Rewriting the history books on this one. We couldn't pay Grubauer and had goalie prospects we liked in the system. We were losing him regardless (many thought he'd be taken in expansion), and Mac clearly had a bigger plan in mind for Orpik. He used Grubauer to skirt the rules and turn a $5.5m player into a $1m player.

That was a good trade, and a set of moves that made the league go, "Hey, wait a minute, not sure you can do that!" And it made us snicker.

So that one's historical fiction. What's next?

You're the one spinning historical fiction here.

Grubauer was worth more than a 2nd, we all knew that (and multiple teams were interested in Grubauer for a 1st). He was traded for a lesser pick to dump Orpik, and the Capitals had no plans to bring Orpik back. Orpik returning after the buyout was a fortuitous set of events, not a pre-planned one. That's why the NHL, who according to Friedman would have made an example out of Washington if they could, cleared the situation to be above board after its investigation.

But we're going to hang onto Orpik being bought out by Colorado for one second here, because it direclty related to the next quote...

We don't buy out contracts

Just like I mentioned in the previous post, it makes Roy harder to buyout for Washington... or another team. Just like happened in the Orpik scenario. Do you think Colorado agrees to take on Orpik's contract if they know they aren't going to buy it out?

Which, as I recall, was me responding to your statement that you'd have moved Oshie years ago, a statement that made clear your dispassionate view of the player that you know is not shared by the team or its fanbase. Pointing to your lack of sentimentality in response to that statement is akin to pointing to a firetruck and saying, "That's red."

"You wanted to move the player, you're not sentimental"
"You wanted Oshie to go to a destination he grew up as a kid, that's a fairy tale"
Once again you're trying to paint things both ways. There's no winning with you sometimes. Just like the hindsight vs prognostication comments about, you're just out to spin things the way you want to spin them. And when rebuked, you flip flop to the opposite perspective.

 

[HeyMattyB]

 

[PlushMinus]

JFC

 

[Rayquaza64]

matt roy’s deal is risky. every long term contract in the history of sports is risky, as things can happen! it’s not a bad thing to sign risky contracts, especially with where the caps are in what they’re trying to do. this is a good signing as of right now.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

JFC

The Benji Vortex is strong….sucking in the unsuspecting…..