Marty St. Louis

[Blueshirt Special]

Agreed, and if this team really is in "win now" mode, wouldn't it make more sense to deal these guys for established NHL'ers, pocket the picks, and hope the picks pan out in a few years?

What happens if/when the guys above don't work out AND the organization is short on picks?

Maybe that's what is in store this summer?

IMHO if we do "win now" (this or next season), then I'll worry about the future when it gets here.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Yes, that would make more sense. This is Sather though...

Could also mean that Ranger prospects have little worth around the league, which makes the situation even worse.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Agreed, and if this team really is in "win now" mode, wouldn't it make more sense to deal these guys for established NHL'ers, pocket the picks, and hope the picks pan out in a few years?

What happens if/when the guys above don't work out AND the organization is short on picks?

I'm not sure who you're talking about dealing? I'm not sure what the value really is of guys like Miller, Bourque, Kristo, Fast, Allen, McIlrath, Hrivk, etc.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Maybe that's what is in store this summer?

IMHO if we do "win now" (this or next season), then I'll worry about the future when it gets here.

Well, the team not being good enough to have this mentality is probably the core problem, but whatever. Its part of being a Ranger fan at this point.

 

[pld459666]

Maybe that's what is in store this summer?

IMHO if we do "win now" (this or next season), then I'll worry about the future when it gets here.

Dolan and Sather love you.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I'm not sure who you're talking about dealing? I'm not sure what the value really is of guys like Miller, Bourque, Kristo, Fast, Allen, etc.

What about McIlrath? Is it too much work for this organization to put the sell job on the rest of the league? Probably.

"Here, have a roster player or two and some draft picks" (preferably for a guy thats demanding to come to NYR) seems to be much easier than evaluating and working towards a target.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Maybe that's what is in store this summer?

IMHO if we do "win now" (this or next season), then I'll worry about the future when it gets here.

Smells like '94.

The Rangers will never take a breath as an organization. Its been their downfall for years and years. After '94 management wanted another '94. The '97 team was on its last legs and the wheels completely fell off after that.

This management team doesn't worry much about the future WITHOUT the championship in hand.

 

[Blueshirt Special]

Smells like '94.

The Rangers will never take a breath as an organization. Its been their downfall for years and years. After '94 management wanted another '94. The '97 team was on its last legs and the wheels completely fell off after that.

This management team doesn't worry much about the future WITHOUT the championship in hand.

Yes. and Teen Spirit too.

Give me a Cup now.

I understand what everyone WANTS. Me too. I want that too. Do we have that?

Do we have it next year? 2 years? FIVE years?!

As everyone is very happy to point out. We do NOT have a barn full of up and comers along with a healthy dose of picks to build a team to win in 2020! (yeah, let that number sink in for a minute)

We came out of the DARK Years 10 YEARS AGO! Hank is not getting any younger and neither is Girardi. News flash: Dominic Moore isn't a young kid doing Bobby Granger commercials.

So when? When do we win?

I do not agree with the way Sather has built(?) the team. But this is what we have, and right now IS THE BEST SHOT WE'VE HAD, OR WILL HAVE.

It's a 2. maaaaaybe 3 year window. Then everyone who has wanted to "blow it up" is going to get their wish by default.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

So when? When do we win?

When we do we win? When the GM stops his quick-fix, short-cut moves and finally builds a roster and organization correctly.

It's a 2. maaaaaybe 3 year window. Then everyone who has wanted to "blow it up" is going to get their wish by default.

I'd rather blow it up and be prepared for the next run at it than have it happen by default and be left with with starting over with nothing.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Yes. and Teen Spirit too.

Give me a Cup now.

I understand what everyone WANTS. Me too. I want that too. Do we have that?

Do we have it next year? 2 years? FIVE years?!

As everyone is very happy to point out. We do NOT have a barn full of up and comers along with a healthy dose of picks to build a team to win in 2020! (yeah, let that number sink in for a minute)

We came out of the DARK Years 10 YEARS AGO! Hank is not getting any younger and neither is Girardi. News flash: Dominic Moore isn't a young kid doing Bobby Granger commercials.

So when? When do we win?

I do not agree with the way Sather has built(?) the team. But this is what we have, and right now IS THE BEST SHOT WE'VE HAD, OR WILL HAVE.

It's a 2. maaaaaybe 3 year window. Then everyone who has wanted to "blow it up" is going to get their wish by default.

4-6 years is always too far away for this team, so it'll stumble its way through that time period in the name of winning a cup, but never actually win it. Fun.

The generational goalie in his early 30's is a better excuse than the ones they have used in the past and will continue to use going forward to justify this "win now" stuff.

Did having a 26 year old Lundqvist cause the team to take a breath when they should've back in 2008? Nope

 

[Jersey Girl]

It's a 2. maaaaaybe 3 year window. Then everyone who has wanted to "blow it up" is going to get their wish by default.

And there's the rub - it's always a 2-3 year window with Sather. I can say with confidence in 2-3 years we'll be saying there is a 2-3 year window, based on Sather's free agent acquisitions/trades between now and then.

 

[True Blue]

As everyone is very happy to point out. We do NOT have a barn full of up and comers along with a healthy dose of picks to build a team to win in 2020! (yeah, let that number sink in for a minute)

1) Everyone is quite unhappy to point that out.
2) Since the farm is so barren, wouldn't it make sense NOT to throw away precious draft picks?
3) Maybe it is time to address how amateur scouting is done and throw money in that direction?

 

[Jersey Girl]

1) Everyone is quite unhappy to point that out.
2) Since the farm is so barren, wouldn't it make sense NOT to throw away precious draft picks?
3) Maybe it is time to address how amateur scouting is done and throw money in that direction?

This is a fantastic point, which I've also mentioned previously here. There is a limit to how much we can spend on players, but no limit whatsoever to how much we can spend in the front office.

Why doesn't Sather go out and pick up all the best scouts in order to give us a huge advantage in that department? Seriously - overpay the 5-10-20 best scouts and let the other teams have the rest.

Let's use whatever financial advantages we can.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

3) Maybe it is time to address how amateur scouting is done and throw money in that direction?

People like to assume that MSG is a bottomless pit of money, but the Rangers operating budget is certainly hampered by paying the likes of Wade Redden, Chris Drury, and (soon enough) Brad Richards 8 figures to not play hockey for the team.

 

[Jersey Girl]

People like to assume that MSG is a bottomless pit of money, but the Rangers operating budget is certainly hampered by paying the likes of Wade Redden, Chris Drury, and (soon enough) Brad Richards 8 figures to not play hockey for the team.

Then get rid of Sather, because he's directly responsible for that lunacy. And if you don't get rid of him, don't factor in the money he's cost you.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

3) Maybe it is time to address how amateur scouting is done and throw money in that direction?

Feel free to address pro scouting also.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Feel free to address pro scouting also.

LOL

So true...

 

[NYR94]

Feel free to address pro scouting also.

What is this "scouting" you speak of?

 

[Jersey Girl]

What is this "scouting" you speak of?

Definitely get the feeling Sather is still checking with Harry Sinden before he makes a move...

 

[Gardner McKay]

So I say we've had issues drafting key pieces out of the 2nd round and beyond, and you counter it with "we signed and traded for a lot of guys, plus we drafted Staal"? Out of that entire rant, you managed to list two players who actually fit into the context of the point I made.

The Rangers took the most successful team they've had in ages, and traded two key pieces for another player who came in and fell well short of expectations. They then proceeded to dismantle it so they could replace the depth that they dealt away with inferior players. You can harp on the idea that they only made those two trades, but two trades sent away 3 of the most successful draft picks this team has made in the last 10 years. 3 guys who loved playing here, gave 100% every game, and helped this team to the best finish we've seen since Sather arrived. Now we're left with a guy who never steps up when it matters, and a guy who is looking every bit of 38 and hasn't registered a point since game 2 of the first round.

I'll certainly argue the Del Zotto trade, simply because it's evidence of this team's inability to sell high on a depreciating asset. They dealt a 23 year old defender at quite possibly the lowest his value had ever been.

The team might be tired now, but they sure as hell didn't look much better in round one.

Not just Staal but it is nice to see how selective your reading is. I also mentioned Stepan & Hagelin. What about Kreider?

So what would the deal have been for Del zotto that we passed up on, only to end up selling "low". Just curious as to what deals Glen had on the table (real ones please, not baseless speculation). Since you are so sure we sold low and all...

 

[Gardner McKay]

I mean, at the end of the day I agree with much of what you're writing here. But view it in a slightly different way. If the majority of the consistent contenders acquired their core pieces via the draft...wouldn't that be a wise blueprint to follow? Wouldn't that have the highest liklihood of producing sustained success?

Put another way...what recent Cup winner, or Cup finalist acquired their top forwards via UFA or a trade in their late 20s/30s? If anything I view that as an absolute way to NOT go. I am not saying you CAN NEVER sign or trade for a big piece. Hossa is a perfect example. When he is brought in to complement Toews/Kane/Sharp, great. When Gabby is brought in to ride shotgun with Kopitar, great.

And last thing I would never say the Rangers have produced NO homegrown talent. Obviously they have. But it's not "Cup core" caliber. At least of it is going to be (Stepan, MZA, Kreider) it has some steps left to take. Is that a high expectation? Yes. Unfair? Maybe, I don't believe so. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you on most of this. The problem is we are like none of those teams. We have an all star defense and an elite goaltender. We are built from the back out (which isn't surprising when you look at our draft/trade record). Naturally, when it comes time to help the team, offense will be where it is needed.

Am I pissed we gave up potentially two first round picks? Yeah. What is the other option though. People love to throw out fantasy land BS all the time. This team will not be a bottom feeder as long as lundqvist is in goal and we have a stellar defense. Mid first rounders will most likely not make an impact any time soon. What is plan then? Trade every one and tank for the next 5 years? Other than staying the course we have now and taking a shot at the cup (however large/small of a chance it may be) or completely rebuilding I don't see a realistic (key word) 3rd option. The way people talk about this team you would think we were in the dark ages again. And let me remind you that tanking is no sure fire way of rebuilding. Look at Edmonton and Florida. I know the next response "well they have incompetent management". By the way people talk here you would think our organization is run by a bunch of people with a sub 60 iq. In which case do you really think they would even tank and rebuild properly?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Has this really turned into another "Whether we should have traded for picks/kept picks or traded for St. Louis" argument ("discussion")?

All points have been made on both sides.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Has this really turned into another "Whether we should have traded for picks/kept picks or traded for St. Louis" argument ("discussion")?

All points have been made on both sides.

lol. You win the thread

Rask qualifies as "traded for" just as much as McDonagh. Chara, sure that's one. How about the rest of their core? Lucic, Bergeron, Krejci. Kessel->Seguin/Hamilton->Eriksson/Smith/Fraser?

You either misunderstood a few things or you were just throwing miscellaneous info out there for no real reason. There was no reason for you to point out "they traded for Rask like we did McD" to me. That's pretty much the point I was going for. No part of my post implies anything but this.

Somebody says "we aren't filling key roles with homegrowns". I show that we filled key roles with plenty of homegrowns and we all know if you go back just two years we had almost a whole team of homegrowns. So any attempts to act like we haven't been going about team building this way for almost a decade is lying or misremembering at the very least. We may not have gotten the right combo of homegrowns...then again we may have just been unlucky and it happens.

As it stands now a significant % of the team is homegrown. I mentioned a few Boston homegrowns too. Unless you thought I was saying Boston only has like 2 homegrown guys (and I never even came close to even trying to insinuate this) then I just don't get your post. We may not have gotten the right homegrown guys, I have no problem with anyone who feels this way. But after a certain point it's b/c that's the luck of the draft. I then showed how maybe if we had gotten a different player here or there our fortunes would be good enough to win it all. That was my point. My point was not "Boston has almost no homegrown players"

Like the previous poster stated it's ridiculous that this discussion is still going. Same exact points over and over and over. Same exact misunderstandings, strawmen, generalizations, etc. You people don't discuss these things with any kind of honesty and it's just not worth putting a lot of effort into it

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

@shinchanyo - looking back on it I completely misread your post. My bad.

 

[True Blue]

Am I pissed we gave up potentially two first round picks? Yeah. What is the other option though.

Keeping them.