Player Discussion Marner

[Zybalto]

He usually starts slow but is off to a pretty amazing start so far. Kinda crazy it's been Matthews that's really been holding the first line back.

Probably should be 5-10 points higher and leading the league in assists.

Just needs to keep doing what he's doing and Papi will return to form soon. The dumbest thing to do would be to break up the line as I think Matthews would like to keep getting those great looks/breakaways he's been missing.

 

[thewave]

cheating how? as like not attending to defensive duties? that doesn't seem accurate to me!

He is cheating on entry and in the ozone by being a perimeter player. He quickly dishes the puck off at the sight of opposition. He does zero heavy lifting on that line. Yes he gets back to stick check or whatever.

 

[thewave]

He usually starts slow but is off to a pretty amazing start so far. Kinda crazy it's been Matthews that's really been holding the first line back.

Probably should be 5-10 points higher and leading the league in assists.

Just needs to keep doing what he's doing and Papi will return to form soon. The dumbest thing to do would be to break up the line as I think Matthews would like to keep getting those great looks/breakaways he's been missing.

How do you know this? So many people pass this crap as analysis. Matthews is holding him back. Maybe it's the other way around. Why can't we try Matthews with someone else.

Nope. Gotta be Matthews is the problem. Willy is the problem. JT is the problem.

The problem is you guys are starting to sound like Mitch Marner who imagine my shock, never admits to being a problem.

Hilarious

 

[Nineteen67]

Marner has been OK this season and was really good the other night. Keep it going.

 

[leafs in five]

He is cheating on entry and in the ozone by being a perimeter player. He quickly dishes the puck off at the sight of opposition. He does zero heavy lifting on that line. Yes he gets back to stick check or whatever.

yeah I don't think that's true at all and he takes a ton of heat here for holding onto the puck around the blueline trying to make a play

 

[ACC1224]

I'm a fan of both Nylander and Marner. I do know what you mean though. There's a strange dynamic on this board with both Marner vs Willie and Dubas vs Tre. I don't follow it all too, too closely, but it does seem like both sides are always trying to rub the other sides nose in any perceived mess like a dog owner would do to his dog.

Marner discussion is such a polarizing issue on this board (and amongst Leaf fans in general). Yes, I'm generally one of the "Marnerites", however, I do see some of the anti-Marners side here. Even though I've found some these takes a little over the top, I still have a lot of respect for the posters posting in this thread.

I think most when defending Marner really do so in response to all the crap that’s made up about him. Most realize he can be better at times like the rest of them. Seems to be a divide between Leaf fans and Marner hate. Leaf fans will defend against the irrational hate.

it’s ok to dislike how a player plays, making stuff up to prove some non existent point isn’t.

 

[thewave]

I think most when defending Marner really do so in response to all the crap that’s made up about him. Most realize he can be better at times like the rest of them. Seems to be a divide between Leaf fans and Marner hate. Leaf fans will defend against the irrational hate.

it’s ok to dislike how a player plays, making stuff up to prove some non existent point isn’t.

Irrational hate is a made up construct only you have in your mind imho. You refuse to answer questions with substance. Second chance.

1. Is he playing up to his current contract? Why? (Currently 28th in pts)

2. Does he deserve a raise? Why?

3. Has he demonstrated the ability to genuinely get us over the hump in PO or elimination game situations?

4. How is AMs performance away from MM statistically speaking? Or perhaps in your observation.

Not expecting anything but best to ask the legitimate questions that pertain to the complaints of the rational MM critics.

 

[ZEBROA]

Can we afford to let him go ?
Can we afford him to stay?
Maby and maby...

 

[thewave]

Can we afford to let him go ?
Can we afford him to stay?
Maby and maby...

If Marner is in you lose Knies most likely and have a garbage 2C.

 

[ZEBROA]

If Marner is in you lose Knies most likely and have a garbage 2C.

A good pk guy and a good 2c would be nice. Matthews should be able to work with what he gets, like Sundin. If u find the right players for the Marner money its a no brainer. Ploblem is we dont know that.

 

[Ports]

I don’t get this love or hate relationship of fans to players. Why is it personal ? I want to see the team win a cup. I could care less which players help them accomplish that. After eight seasons it’s pretty clear that their core five players have not been able to rise to the occcassion to win when it counts most. That has to change even if it means letting players walk to free up the cap space needed to build a stronger, deeper team. 61% of the salary cap going to five players can’t work. They’ve committed to Matthews, Rielly and Nylander long term with full NMCs. Were those the right choices ? Time will tell. But next offseason will be the opportunity to remake their roster into one that that can compete for a cup because after 8 years it should be clear to all Leaf fans that changes to the core group are needed.

 

[Zybalto]

How do you know this? So many people pass this crap as analysis. Matthews is holding him back. Maybe it's the other way around. Why can't we try Matthews with someone else.

Nope. Gotta be Matthews is the problem. Willy is the problem. JT is the problem.

The problem is you guys are starting to sound like Mitch Marner who imagine my shock, never admits to being a problem.

Hilarious

We are all watching the games and can see how well Marner is distributing the puck but here's a fun stat for you:

The top 2 forwards with the most 5v5 individual high danger chances per game in the league this season:

Knies
Matthews

Matthews has been struggling on both ends of the puck too but I expect him to shake it off in the next few games. He's going to go on a tear soon if he keeps getting those looks.

 

[ACC1224]

Can we afford to let him go ?
Can we afford him to stay?
Maby and maby...

Dollar wise they can make it work.
Letting him walk is a different matter. It's hard to see the team letting him walk.

 

[thewave]

yeah I don't think that's true at all and he takes a ton of heat here for holding onto the puck around the blueline trying to make a play

13m MM
13m AM
11.5m WN
7m Knies
7m Stolarz or more if good.

Like 60% cap right there. No 2c. Impossible to fill out a team or keep prospects happy.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I really don't think anyone is scared of him playing well (except maybe fans of other teams).

The issue many posters have is the hype - yes he's very good, but there are a few posters who regularly say that he's one of the very best players in the league (you could make an argument that he's not even the second best player on the team), and that seems to be what triggers the rebuttals.

Not his performance, but the hyperbole about it.

The hype is a big part of it for sure. He's good in the playoffs for 4 games, after that he's just terrible. Regular season he's always good but hyping the guy in October when he almost always fails in April seems ridiculous to me. He doesn't deserve being talked about like he's an elite player until he shows in the playoffs that he's worth what he's being paid, simple as that. JMHO.

I agree but I think the reason for a lot of the acrimony is pretty clear (he is a puny effete zoomer)

Maybe for some people. Not for me though, he was my favorite player for a time there. I've always had a thing for smaller players with mad skillz.

the other thing about the identity politics aspect of the debate around Marner is that his biggest backer was a know-it-all millenial rookie GM who never played the game. it's like a perfect storm of the sort of generational identities that traditional hockey fans are conditioned to hate.

That's interesting, I think you might be on to something here. I mean Dubas didn't just back him, he backed all of them not just Marner but still, there might be something to this.

The debate around the kid went off the rails a long time ago. I just laugh when people call me a hater, I mean he was my favorite player, then he wasn't because of his playoff disappearing act but I'd love it if he'd win me over again. Then of course I'll be called a flip-flopper.

I just want the team to start living up to it's potential in the playoffs and I've been waiting for so long, I have good reason for thinking it might never happen and there's a good chance this core goes down in history as the biggest disappointments in Maple Leafs history, despite re-writing the Leaf record books. It's not all on Marner of course, but he's near the top of the list. The way he tends to fade away as the playoffs go on mirrors the struggles of the team perfectly, which is IMO why he's the perfect poster boy for the teams playoff failures..

 

[ACC1224]

We are all watching the games and can see how well Marner is distributing the puck but here's a fun stat for you:

The top 2 forwards with the most 5v5 individual high danger chances per game in the league this season:

Knies
Matthews

Matthews has been struggling on both ends of the puck too but I expect him to shake it off in the next few games. He's going to go on a tear soon if he keeps getting those looks.

I think some watch games with a hypercritical eye looking to pounce on any misplay.
My eye says the top line has been consistently the best line all year, I'd be surprised if the stats don't show that.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I don’t get this love or hate relationship of fans to players. Why is it personal ? I want to see the team win a cup. I could care less which players help them accomplish that. After eight seasons it’s pretty clear that their core five players have not been able to rise to the occcassion to win when it counts most. That has to change even if it means letting players walk to free up the cap space needed to build a stronger, deeper team. 61% of the salary cap going to five players can’t work. They’ve committed to Matthews, Rielly and Nylander long term with full NMCs. Were those the right choices ? Time will tell. But next offseason will be the opportunity to remake their roster into one that that can compete for a cup because after 8 years it should be clear to all Leaf fans that changes to the core group are needed.

Well said.

 

[Zybalto]

I think some watch games with a hypercritical eye looking to pounce on any misplay.
My eye says the top line has been consistently the best line all year, I'd be surprised if the stats don't show that.

Yea, they show that although they have been struggling defensively the last few games compared with earlier in the season.

Berube been hitting them with big minutes some games too.

 

[DarkKnight]

So a guy with 1 goal so far and a minus player this year is going to be on the first line in some gimmicky 4 nation tournament.

Yes, because he’s the best. I’ll be cheering for the team. “Gimmicky” is a lame way to undercut a simple fact of who are the best Canadians. Just like yesterday when the Selke is somehow meaningless because people can’t go beyond black and white here. Kind of boring, all I do is counter the excessive garbage, I’ve already stated a billion times he failed us in the playoffs. Try it sometime.

He made team Canada already??

Obtuse.

 

[ACC1224]

Yea, they show that although they have been struggling defensively the last few games compared with earlier in the season.

Berube been hitting them with big minutes some games too.

Yeah, that is going to catch up to them at some point. They'll have the 4 Nations tournament as well, so no break there either.
Seemed they played a little less in Winnipeg. It would be great if he could start limiting their PK time, those are tough minutes.

 

[thewave]

I don’t get this love or hate relationship of fans to players. Why is it personal ? I want to see the team win a cup. I could care less which players help them accomplish that. After eight seasons it’s pretty clear that their core five players have not been able to rise to the occcassion to win when it counts most. That has to change even if it means letting players walk to free up the cap space needed to build a stronger, deeper team. 61% of the salary cap going to five players can’t work. They’ve committed to Matthews, Rielly and Nylander long term with full NMCs. Were those the right choices ? Time will tell. But next offseason will be the opportunity to remake their roster into one that that can compete for a cup because after 8 years it should be clear to all Leaf fans that changes to the core group are needed.

There is no love hate. A few posters say that but it's not true at all.

This is a referendum on team success and probability of winning a cup with a 12-13m Mitch.

Stolarz is going to want 7m if legit. Knies 7m. What about other prospects, are they to just look at the cap and do a Robertson? F THIS PLACE pretty much, rather go somewhere to get paid.

 

[leafs in five]

That's interesting, I think you might be something here. I mean Dubas didn't just back him, he backed all of them not just Marner but still, there might be something to this.

The debate around the kid went off the rails a long time ago. I just laugh when people call me a hater, I mean he was my favorite player, then he wasn't because of his playoff disappearing act but I'd love it if he'd win me over again. Then of course I'll be called a flip-flopper.

I just want the team to start living up to it's potential in the playoffs and I've been waiting for so long, I have good reason for thinking it might never happen and there's a good chance this core goes down in history as the biggest disappointments in Maple Leafs history, despite re-writing the Leaf record books. It's not all on Marner of course, but he's near the top of the list. The way he tends to fade away as the playoffs go on mirrors the struggles of the team perfectly, which is IMO why he's the perfect poster boy for the teams playoff failures..

yeah that's all fair enough. imo they have been victim of a larger-than-normal proportion of chance with e.g. covid (not just the flat cap but the eerie no-fans season where they got to play the same 6 teams all year), Amirov, Tampa discovering LTIR, Tampa discovering they could call their own penalties like when you're playing basketball outdoors against someone. through all this he's been the team's leading playoff scorer, with all the caveats anyone wishes to attach to that. anyway

 

[leafs in five]

He made team Canada already??

I wonder if Hyman will (currently tied for 250th in scoring)

There is no love hate. A few posters say that but it's not true at all.

This is a referendum on team success and probability of winning a cup with a 12-13m Mitch.

Stolarz is going to want 7m if legit. Knies 7m. What about other prospects, are they to just look at the cap and do a Robertson? F THIS PLACE pretty much, rather go somewhere to get paid.

you are anticipating Marner's next deal pricing the Leafs out of Easton Cowan's 2nd contract after his breakout season in 2028?

 

[thewave]

I wonder if Hyman will (currently tied for 250th in scoring)


you are anticipating Marner's next deal pricing the Leafs out of Easton Cowan's 2nd contract after his breakout season in 2028?

Knies 7m
MM 12.5m
WN 11.5m

All wings. All NMCs

AM 5year C 13.5m
NMC

Stolarz 7m likely
NMC

Look at the way the other contracts lineup. MM 12.5m is a doomsday contract. If he was a 1D it would be fine.

They should be messing around with the lines to find a MM alternative for Matthews not finding a way to make MMs next contract big again.

 

[Gary Nylund]

yeah that's all fair enough. imo they have been victim of a larger-than-normal proportion of chance with e.g. covid (not just the flat cap but the eerie no-fans season where they got to play the same 6 teams all year), Amirov, Tampa discovering LTIR, Tampa discovering they could call their own penalties like when you're playing basketball outdoors against someone. through all this he's been the team's leading playoff scorer, with all the caveats anyone wishes to attach to that. anyway

Yes I think that's fair. We've had some bad luck for sure, there are a few things not on your list that were also bad luck. I won't add to your list because I'm loath to make excuses for these guys, but I do think it's fair to say that our playoff performance has been better than our 1-8 series record would indicate. On the other hand, 1-8 is still really bad. We should still have done better than that, even with the bad luck we've had so I think it's understandable that many people are disappointed.