TSN: Marner on tsn: "We are grown men".

[keonsbitterness]

Post 1000.....can we close this garbage already???

I still have the best post in this thread by far.

 

[Notsince67]

You really have to ask, at what point is this considered trolling?


Pretty much directly in line with the prime of scoring wingers.

What you are referring to is an average of all forwards which skew the age downwards. The only study I saw of elite forwards suggested a peak at 28

 

[Dekes For Days]

.... You removed a sentence from my two sentence paragraph..the removed sentence said it was unconventional. You then proceeded to say "you did not say it was unconventional"... When it literally was in the very next sentence that you removed. When confronted with the proof, You then admitted it was actually there... Then your argument morphed from "you didn't say it was unconventional" to "ok you did say it" but I'm attacking just a statement in your two sentence paragraph. If this was the case.. Then why did you adamently argue that I didnt say unconventional?

I didn't remove anything. I addressed a full, independent statement that was a direct response to a similar statement of mine. There was no reason to include all of the other stuff in your post when addressing it. It's no different from what you've done in this very discussion. I also never "adamantly argued that you didn't say unconventional". I made a singular comment that you didn't, because I didn't realize that you had randomly switched from discussing the statement I had responded to and we had been discussing the whole time, to an entirely different and irrelevant statement you made afterward. I was noting that you said "Speaks more to the coach over-coaching again." and not that it was "unconventional" in the statement I was addressing, and you've been misrepresenting that miscommunication ever since. I don't care whether you said unconventional. It's irrelevant. What matters is what you said in the sentence I addressed.

 

[Gabriel426]

McDavid does not keep his game simple at all… the difference is McDavid is EXCEPTIONAL and his combination of stick handling and speed sets him apart. McDavid does stuff that no one else in the league can really so and he’s so fast that even if he does make a mistake, he’s got the puck back quicker than you. Or he’s going to make you look so dumb you don’t notice the little mistakes he does do.

If you watch Oilers games you’ll see McDavid makes bad turnovers as well. But he also fills the net nightly so his turnover highlights are outshadowed by his spectacular goals that he does.

To me, McD keeps his game simple. He just does his thing and results happens. I do think every players make mistakes in every games they played. I have not seen any players in any eras where they were just perfect in one game without mistakes.
Sometime players like MM just needs to take the simple step or the simple route instead of forcing plays. Thats had nothing to do with limiting his creativities but more with decision making and keeping the opposition guessing.
For example that SH goal the other night.
Gio scored and it is great play. But if Gio didn’t score and actually the drop pass became a turnover and ended in the back of the Leafs net. Same can be said about the goal that Benn scored, he should never be parked in front of the net and banged in rebound.

What you are referring to is an average of all forwards which skew the age downwards. The only study I saw of elite forwards suggested a peak at 28

I think players all peak differently. And I am not talking about points production but rather understanding their roles and what they needed to do to win.
Sid might had scored more points when he was mid 20s but i think his best was when he won back to back a few years back when he understood how to play to win.

 

[Notsince67]

To me, McD keeps his game simple. He just does his thing and results happens. I do think every players make mistakes in every games they played. I have not seen any players in any eras where they were just perfect in one game without mistakes.
Sometime players like MM just needs to take the simple step or the simple route instead of forcing plays. Thats had nothing to do with limiting his creativities but more with decision making and keeping the opposition guessing.
For example that SH goal the other night.
Gio scored and it is great play. But if Gio didn’t score and actually the drop pass became a turnover and ended in the back of the Leafs net. Same can be said about the goal that Benn scored, he should never be parked in front of the net and banged in rebound.


I think players all peak differently. And I am not talking about points production but rather understanding their roles and what they needed to do to win.
Sid might had scored more points when he was mid 20s but i think his best was when he won back to back a few years back when he understood how to play to win.

I agree with you and the study didnt only look at points. Frankly I think it makes sense. Beyond the physical boost one makes in their early 20's, skilled progression continues with elite players. "Relative skill level" can be measured in various ways and it would be prudent to inject additional things other than points as they like have different vectors relative to time.

 

[therealkoho]

Can you expand on the bolded? Are you saying that only great skaters can spot bad skaters? I mean Jay Rosehill only played professional hockey ..... That would mean he's certainly more of an expert than any of us.

Can't wait to read your response ....should be gold.

Jay made the NHL for 2 reasons the first is that he's 6'3" and 220 and the second is that he was very willing and highly effective when he dropped his gloves. His 8 pts in 117 games is 8 points more than I scored in the NHL.

Rosehill was a poor skater for a guy who played in the NHL, if he knew more about skating he would have improved his stride and perhaps carved out a good career but he didn't and perhaps he couldn't.

Being a poor skater is not the same as not being able to skate, but lets say that his judgement/opinion of a skater of Marner's ability isn't maybe as reliable as you'd want it to be. Most or even all scouts have always rated Marners skating ability and edge work as his ace in the hole, he can shift and change direction on a dime as well as vary his speed as part of his bag of tricks to baffle opponents. He is elite in that respect! Cheers!


That said enjoy the read: Video Analysis: Mitch Marner’s Most Underrated Skill

 

[Apex Predator]

This thread is going to the hall of fame!

 

[Martin Skoula]

There's a fine line there, part of his game is his magic and creating ridiculous plays no one never expected. He shouldn't lose that aspect, it's what makes him a star

He needs to learn about time and place. You don't do drop passes in 3v3 OT, you don't try to dangle the whole team in OT of a potential series clincher and get way too cute. There are times to play simple hockey and times to use his gift

The league knows him by now, at this point the most unexpected play from him would be the simple one.

 

[Racer88]

25 is a pretty young prime

How old were Chicago’s stars when they won their cups

 

[Antropovsky]

Jay made the NHL for 2 reasons the first is that he's 6'3" and 220 and the second is that he was very willing and highly effective when he dropped his gloves. His 8 pts in 117 games is 8 points more than I scored in the NHL.

Rosehill was a poor skater for a guy who played in the NHL, if he knew more about skating he would have improved his stride and perhaps carved out a good career but he didn't and perhaps he couldn't.

Being a poor skater is not the same as not being able to skate, but lets say that his judgement/opinion of a skater of Marner's ability isn't maybe as reliable as you'd want it to be. Most or even all scouts have always rated Marners skating ability and edge work as his ace in the hole, he can shift and change direction on a dime as well as vary his speed as part of his bag of tricks to baffle opponents. He is elite in that respect! Cheers!


That said enjoy the read: Video Analysis: Mitch Marner’s Most Underrated Skill

Nothing about Jay Rosehills own personal skating abilities should stop him from knowing what a bad backward skater looks like. He went through 20 years of all' levels of practices and reached the NHL level.

If all scouts followed your requirements than there would be no NHL scouts. They'd all be filthy rich from being Wayne gretzky.

You do realize that some goalie coaches weren't all star players? And many scouts werent former Hall of Fame hockey players.... Right?

 

[Notsince67]

How old were Chicago’s stars when they won their cups

Is this a magical correlation? Players only win cups in their prime?

 

[Racer88]

Is this a magical correlation? Players only win cups in their prime?

Apparently not because I’m pretty sure the Chicago stars won when they were younger then the Leafs stars

 

[Notsince67]

Apparently not because I’m pretty sure the Chicago stars won when they were younger then the Leafs stars

Just to be clear, you aren't implying than cup Kane was better than post cup Kane, right?

 

[Racer88]

Just to be clear, you aren't implying than cup Kane was better than post cup Kane, right?

We will let history be the judge of that

 

[Notsince67]

We will let history be the judge of that

Such a lazy take

 

[Gabriel426]

I agree with you and the study didnt only look at points. Frankly I think it makes sense. Beyond the physical boost one makes in their early 20's, skilled progression continues with elite players. "Relative skill level" can be measured in various ways and it would be prudent to inject additional things other than points as they like have different vectors relative to time.

No doubt about it. I think a lot of people look at points and state, highest points total means the peak of players' careers. But I think that just part of it. Look at Stevie Y and how he transformed his game. And we really can't judge a player's prime until they are retired and look back at his career and say, he was at his best during X-X.....

 

[Gabriel426]

The league knows him by now, at this point the most unexpected play from him would be the simple one.

Since we all been watching the World Cup, going to use a football analogy. Don't know when and who started it, but I think it is in the late 90s or early 00s, players began to just do a gently chip kick when they take Penalty Kicks. When they scored, it was awesome, but if they didn't. they look stupid because the goalie literally just needed to stand there and catch a very weak shot. Now, even the best chip kicker-I believe he is Totti, an IT legend and scored a lot of PKs with chip shot, didn't do chip shots all the time, bc he knew it won't be effective at all. Now if MM can have that mentality and just picks his time to be creative, he will be a lot more effective and harder to play against.

 

[DarkKnight]

 

[ACC1224]

2nd assists don't count though.

 

[DarkKnight]

2nd assists don't count though.

Same people who scoffed at primary last year. It’s funny to watch.

 

[ACC1224]

Same people who scoffed at primary last year. It’s funny to watch.

I'd say 'ignorance is bliss' but they seem kind of grumpy.

 

[Notsince67]

I'd say 'ignorance is bliss' but they seem kind of grumpy.

They want Marner held accountable for being a bad kind of guy. Just 12 more assists and he will pass Tim Horton for #6 all time Leafs career assists. The response will be a combination of statements including:
1) What about the playoffs? They are the only thing that count
2) Assists don't mean anything
3) He is overpaid

With the sprinkling of...
1) Nylander is "a better"/"just as good of a" forward
2) OK Paul

 

[DarkKnight]

They want Marner held accountable for being a bad kind of guy. Just 12 more assists and he will pass Tim Horton for #6 all time Leafs career assists. The response will be a combination of statements including:
1) What about the playoffs? They are the only thing that count
2) Assists don't mean anything
3) He is overpaid

With the sprinkling of...
1) Nylander is "a better"/"just as good of a" forward
2) OK Paul

Yes, the guy who does more charity work on the team than anyone and seems universally liked by his teammates is a “bad guy”. It’s hilarious.

 

[MAB1]

How old were Chicago’s stars when they won their cups

How old were Tampa's and Washington's?

 

[MAB1]

They want Marner held accountable for being a bad kind of guy. Just 12 more assists and he will pass Tim Horton for #6 all time Leafs career assists. The response will be a combination of statements including:
1) What about the playoffs? They are the only thing that count
2) Assists don't mean anything
3) He is overpaid

With the sprinkling of...
1) Nylander is "a better"/"just as good of a" forward
2) OK Paul

You say this while completely ignoring the fact that you judge Nylander and Marner differently.

Almost nobody thinks Nylander is better than Marner, but the fact of the matter is he's been ppg since the playoffs in 2020-21 (sample size of 115 games now) and makes significantly less than Marner. Nylander is the most efficient producer out of the big 4 relative to what he gets paid. You can argue his production and his contract makes him more valuable.