Marner and new PP alignment

[zeke]

Amazing what being an elite PP player can do for a players production

Mackinnon has sustained that year over year. Matthews+Marner have failed to do so

Hopefully this is the year. Until then, you'll be one of the few guys to take Matthews over Mackinnon while the majority of the hockey world will take the player with actual better results not a what if scenario, and greater accomplishments/accolades from an individual season perspective

Last 3yrs PP pts per 60 (min 500min)

1. McDavid 8.90
2. Kucherov 8.13
3. Draisaitl 7.91
4. Pastrnak 7.71
5. Stamkos 7.33
----
8. Mackinnon 6.86
---
17. Marner 6.17
18. Matthews 6.14


Since Mitch and Auston entered the league:

1. Kucherov 7.89
2. McDavid 7.63
3. Stamkos 7.39
4. Pastrnak 7.28
5. Crosby 6.89
---
9. Marner 6.74
---
12. Mackinnon 6.43
---
15. Matthews 6.20

Primary Points

1. Stamkos 5.90
2. Pastrnak 5.64
3. Draisaitl 5.43
4. McDavid 5.23
5. Wheeler 5.17
6. Matthews 4.79
---
12. Marner 4.47
---
16. Mackinnon 4.38

 

[Dekes For Days]

Matthews needs to learn how to play on the PP if he wants to be as good as Mackinnon.

PP points per 60, since Matthews/Marner entered the league:

Marner: 6.85
Mackinnon: 6.35
Matthews: 6.13

PP primary points per 60, since Matthews/Marner entered the league:

Matthews: 4.66
Marner: 4.55
Mackinnon: 4.35

 

[hamzarocks]

PP points per 60, since Matthews/Marner entered the league:

Marner: 6.85
Mackinnon: 6.35
Matthews: 6.13

PP primary points per 60, since Matthews/Marner entered the league:

Matthews: 4.66
Marner: 4.55
Mackinnon: 4.35

Per/60 is irrelevant and benefits players playing less icetime who produce in spurts like matthews has done on the PP over the years.

Matthews isn't as capable on the PP as Mackinnon. He's a limited playmaker with limited vision in comparison to Mackinnon whose a better set up man on the PP. Mackinnon is better at using the high elite options available around him, while Matthews primarily operates as a shooter and isn't a great playmaking threat for the leafs stars on the PP

If producing on the PP at the same level as Mackinnon. His usage increasing won't matter considering how cold our PP operates with him and Marner running the show.

You don't get credit for being potentially better than a player. Matthews needs to actually outproduce Mackinnon on the PP to be considered a better PP player. Until then the leagues players/coaches/media will continue to take Mackinnon as the better player (rightfully so).

Currently Mackinnon is the 3rd best player in the world while Matthews is 5th

Another season like last year can move him to 2nd/3rd but you don't move ahead of a player after 1 single season of superioty. He needs to be better/ahead of Mackinnon again to justify placing him above Mackinnon

 

[zeke]

Once again perform on the PP and you will produce. Don't perform and you will be unranked back to back seasons in hart/Lindsay voting. Matthews lack of secondary scoring is due to his limited play making and his inability to operate a PP. He's a shooter first and foremost unlikely to be able to operate the PP and make passes that can lead to secondary assists. His limited vision hurts him and will continue to do so until he works on truly fixing it

Per/60 stats don't hold when Matthews has no proven track record of producing amongst the leagues leading PP producers.

Break it down however you like but Mackinnon has been better than Matthews as seen by the media/coaches and the players. Matthews will need to change that and produce on the PP at an elite level for the season like Mackinnon has to support your currently homeristic viewpoint

They clearly performed on the PP.

They have no control over their PP minutes.

 

[hamzarocks]

They clearly performed on the PP.

They have no control over their PP minutes.

They can play a style which leads to drawing more PPs

And the past two years with Keefe Matthews PP TOI has gone up to 3:11 and 3:13 from mid 2s. His PPP/60 didn't change really much at all in 2019-2020 despite 40+ seconds more PP time dropping from ~6.8 to 6.7 before seeing it drop to ~4.46 I believe this year.

As his PP ice times gone up his production per game hasn't with his Pp totals not being as good as Mackinnon who still gets a 40+ seconds than Matthews. This year Matthews PPP/60 plummeted along with the rest of the leafs despite playing the highest he's ever played on the Powerplay.

Until he outproduces Mackinnon he won't be accepted as a better player than Mackinnon.

Until then we'll have to wait and see and hope.

 

[zeke]

Until he outproduces Mackinnon he won't be accepted as a better player than Mackinnon.

Don't really care what people accept tbh.

 

[hamzarocks]

Don't really care what people accept tbh.

That's fine then just accept that people disagree with you. Your in a minority and arguing a claim which has little merit/support outside when looked at rationally and free from blue and white glasses

 

[Dekes For Days]

Per/60 is irrelevant and benefits players playing less icetime

Per 60 is the most relevant, and no, less ice time is not beneficial.

Matthews isn't as capable on the PP as Mackinnon.

Except he quite factually is. His team just doesn't spend as much time on special teams.

Currently Mackinnon is the 3rd best player in the world while Matthews is 5th

There's really nothing to support this.

 

[mapleleaf979]

If Marner and Mack have the same contract with the same term, I doubt any GMs will choose Marner over Mack.
Imagine Mack playing RW to AM.

Would be interesting to see if they use Mack as McD RW in TC.

Mackinnon and MCdavid dominate using a similar weapon, explosive speed and acceleration but also have excellent hockey sense. Marner does not have that speed and power element, yet is Top 5 in NHL scoring. Its a testament to his IQ. Look at the list of career years that players had on Marners line..Bozak, JVR, Kadri, Matthews, Tavares.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Look at from 2018 whose better?

They're pretty similar, despite Matthews being younger.

 

[Gabriel426]

Mackinnon and MCdavid dominate using a similar weapon, explosive speed and acceleration but also have excellent hockey sense. Marner does not have that speed and power element, yet is Top 5 in NHL scoring. Its a testament to his IQ. Look at the list of career years that players had on Marners line..Bozak, JVR, Kadri, Matthews, Tavares.

Just bc Mack is better, it doesn’t mean Marner is a bad player.
There are quite a few players better than Marner and Marner is better than a tons of players in the NHL.

 

[zeke]

That's fine then just accept that people disagree with you. Your in a minority and arguing a claim which has little merit/support outside when looked at rationally and free from blue and white glasses

Plenty of merit to the argument as outlined above.

I do accept that people disagree with me and think that raw points with no context trump everything. But that doesn't mean I'll stop pointing out that theyre wrong.

 

[The Iceman]

How does this demonstrate their hockey IQs?

Plus Mackinnon is better than Matthews whose clearly better than Marner.

Hart trophy voting had Matthews ahead of MacKinnon 69-6 in voting as the 2nd best player in the league

 

[WinnieThePooh]

Per/60 is irrelevant and benefits players playing less icetime who produce in spurts like matthews has done on the PP over the years.

Matthews isn't as capable on the PP as Mackinnon. He's a limited playmaker with limited vision in comparison to Mackinnon whose a better set up man on the PP. Mackinnon is better at using the high elite options available around him, while Matthews primarily operates as a shooter and isn't a great playmaking threat for the leafs stars on the PP

If producing on the PP at the same level as Mackinnon. His usage increasing won't matter considering how cold our PP operates with him and Marner running the show.

You don't get credit for being potentially better than a player. Matthews needs to actually outproduce Mackinnon on the PP to be considered a better PP player. Until then the leagues players/coaches/media will continue to take Mackinnon as the better player (rightfully so).

Currently Mackinnon is the 3rd best player in the world while Matthews is 5th

Another season like last year can move him to 2nd/3rd but you don't move ahead of a player after 1 single season of superioty. He needs to be better/ahead of Mackinnon again to justify placing him above Mackinnon

 

[Stephen]

It is true, so Tavares said it.

It would be a confusing sound bite if Tavares said “Mitch is the 3rd best PP mind in the game behind Kucherov but you have to factor in he missed a regular season - which was cap circumvention, cheater - the fact that Mitch’s age 23 P/60 is through the roof and don’t get me started on Patrick Kane…”

 

[hamzarocks]

Hart trophy voting had Matthews ahead of MacKinnon 69-6 in voting as the 2nd best player in the league

What was the hart voting records in 2018, 2019, and 2020?

If a guy like Seguin has an insane year and finishes ahead of Matthews in Hart this year does he become better based off of one season of better play?

Need to see a longer sample size before saying Matthews > Mackinnon in the regular season.

Obviously playoffs they can't be compared

 

[zeke]

I find it funny that the same people who hate advanced stats think regular old points are the end all and be all.

 

[IPS]

I find it funny that the same people who hate advanced stats think regular old points are the end all and be all.

Regular old points lead to regular old goals that win regular old playoff games?

 

[zeke]

Stats are stupid!

More points = better player!

 

[Twine Tickler]

I will preface what I am about to say with I generally speaking try and take a more optimistic approach to the Leafs than your average Leaf fan.

That said, I really think alot of talking heads are sleeping on the Leafs this year for a variety of reasons.

1. People keep referencing the strength of schedule being the reason we had such a great season. Not sure I entirely agree with this. OTT was the worst in our division and they could easily beat any team in the league on any given night. Same with VAN and CGY. Whereas I really don't think that it was that way for say BUF, DET, ANH, LA, SJ...etc last year. At the end of the day, there was no easy points last year. Just look at our record against OTT and VAN last year. Not exactly like we took advantage of this "easy division"

2. The Goaltending from Freddy was truly terrible. A lot of talking heads say we may have question marks in net with 2 goalies who have never been a starter in this league, yet last year we received ECHL level tending half the time. Even if Mrazek and Campbell play like the 1B's they have always been, we should actually see an improvement in this area, not regression.

3. Most importantly, our PP legit cost us games last year. And potentially the playoffs. The margins are so tight 5v5 in the playoffs. You really need to make good on your opportunities on the PP. We did not. Which is why I am posting this in this thread. If we can get a PP efficiency that aligns to the talent that is on the PP, this could be the biggest difference maker we see. We finally defend well after 20 years of struggling. Our PP was red hot to start the year, but it was absolutely terrible from the 2nd half of the season onward. It would almost be impossible to be less efficient than what we were in the 2nd half. As much as Marner being in the middle of the ice will be an absolute game changer, the same can be said with JT at the front of the net. JT was made for that role IMO. Great hands in and around the net, and excellent at tipping pucks. I really expect us to have one of the most efficient PP's in the league this year. For this reason alone, I think we will be a very challenging team to beat, especially with the PP/game likely to go up with more cross checking calls.

 

[IPS]

2. The Goaltending from Freddy was truly terrible. A lot of talking heads say we may have question marks in net with 2 goalies who have never been a starter in this league, yet last year we received ECHL level tending half the time. Even if Mrazek and Campbell play like the 1B's they have always been, we should actually see an improvement in this area, not regression.

What's awesome is those talking heads always worshipped Freddy and never faulted him for anything last season, it was always the Leafs are crap defensively and let Freddy down.

If Mrazek turns out decent and Campbell continues his play from last season it's going to be very entertaining how the narrative will develop.

 

[Notsince67]

It would be a confusing sound bite if Tavares said “Mitch is the 3rd best PP mind in the game behind Kucherov but you have to factor in he missed a regular season - which was cap circumvention, cheater - the fact that Mitch’s age 23 P/60 is through the roof and don’t get me started on Patrick Kane…”

I dont really want to belabor the point ad infinitum because I think it is largely missed by people who are overly pedantic. It was high praise from JT and perhaps he was engaged in a bit of exaggeration. Nevertheless, the message is that he believes MM's vision is among the tops in the league and it is nice he made the comment. He clearly has confidence in him and any debate who has the 1st to 10th best vision in the league is really an academic argument that is a bit boring.