Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread

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Kokkonen and Rindell's team having a rough night, down 9-0 after 2 periods...
Was laughing at this pylon on Lundell's goal then realized it was Kokkonen :facepalm:


Goalies' swiss cheese and they're the worst team in the league but come on man.


He should have been turned around so that he could get a better stick on that puck and cut him off more but he kept him to the outside. It was not perfect, but he did a good enough job for that goalie to stop that puck. There is no way that should have gone in.

-6 for Kokkonen in that game though.
 
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Kokkonen and Rindell's team having a rough night, down 9-0 after 2 periods...
Was laughing at this pylon on Lundell's goal then realized it was Kokkonen :facepalm:


Goalies' swiss cheese and they're the worst team in the league but come on man.

Thats not too bad actually. He got turned around a bit but kept it to the outside. That can't go in. Whatever the game is, it's been a solid start for Kokkonen. I'm not going to complain about 1 game.
 

The fact they named him to the training camp roster when Lilly got hurt should tell a lot. It said something about Duszak but also Hollowell. He hasn't even established himself in the AHL yet, yet got named. The guy is good. Looks like his play has been fantastic so far.
 
even if those odds are too generous, finding players with even a 50% chance of being an NHL player in the 4th and 5th rounds is some excellent drafting. I hope Dubas is here for a long, long time

The guy simply just gets it.

I'm not sure there is anyone else in the NHL I'd prefer to make our picks on draft day. I know it's only been 3 drafts, but my goodness do all his drafts look like we're going to get not only NHL players, but also potential stars where the odds are heavily stacked against it.
 
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The fact they named him to the training camp roster when Lilly got hurt should tell a lot. It said something about Duszak but also Hollowell. He hasn't even established himself in the AHL yet, yet got named. The guy is good. Looks like his play has been fantastic so far.

Hollowell still has ways to go, but I could see him playing 100 games (and being useful), even if it takes a strange path to the NHL. I could see his first "full" season being around the age of 25.
 
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Kral, after Niemela, is IMO the next best D prospect in the org. (outside of the obvious Lilj/Sandin).

In the Czech 2nd tier, he debuted with a 33:48 minute game, followed that up with a 25:42 second game, and averaged 25:35 ATOI in his 7 games there. Since being called up he's averaged over 20mins per game while playing on the same blue line as former top 40 picks in Zboril and Hajek, so he's not being gifted minutes. Rewatched the Czech vs. Russia game the other day (check it out on YT) and Kral was probably the best defender on the ice - that was years ago. His offensive creativity and agility have progressed significantly since and his transition play, size, and ability to deny zone entries while playing on his off-side suggest he'll fit like a glove down the road.



 
Kral, after Niemela, is IMO the next best D prospect in the org. (outside of the obvious Lilj/Sandin).

In the Czech 2nd tier, he debuted with a 33:48 minute game, followed that up with a 25:42 second game, and averaged 25:35 ATOI in his 7 games there. Since being called up he's averaged over 20mins per game while playing on the same blue line as former top 40 picks in Zboril and Hajek, so he's not being gifted minutes. Rewatched the Czech vs. Russia game the other day (check it out on YT) and Kral was probably the best defender on the ice - that was years ago. His offensive creativity and agility have progressed significantly since and his transition play, size, and ability to deny zone entries while playing on his off-side suggest he'll fit like a glove down the road.





I love Kral. If anyone remembers, I had him ranked at the top of the 2nd round on draft day 2018 based almost exclusively on his advanced stats being downright outrageous. I can pretty much guarantee I was higher than him than basically everyone else in the world lol.

My issue with him (and although he's FINALLY doing it) is that he never played in a pro league prior to his age 21 season, and really has only dominated against kids. It's amazing to see him do that, but he was clearly too good for the WHL before his overage season, and the Leafs didn't think it was worth sending him to the ECHL or the AHL.

I'm glad to see him now in the Czech pro league getting big minutes, and by all accounts playing very well. It definitely will get me back on him as it was the necessary next step in his development, but I think it's a bold statement saying he's ahead of Kokkonen right now; a guy that played his first pro game in his 15 year old season (and is finally dominating in his 19 year old season). Kokkonen has played 8 more pro games THIS YEAR in a better league than Kral, and is 1.25 years younger. Even Villeneuve putting up massive points in the Q in his 17 year old season has an argument to be ahead of Kral today. Age & comp are so vital.

Although I probably am moving up Kokkonen into the next tier (with Abramov, Hallander, Niemela, Hirvonen, Abruzzese) if he keeps up this performance, today I'd have Kral in the same tier as Kokkonen, Villeneuve, Hollowell, and possibly (soon-to-be added) Rindell.
 
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I love Kral. If anyone remembers, I had him ranked at the top of the 2nd round on draft day 2018 based almost exclusively on his advanced stats being downright outrageous. I can pretty much guarantee I was higher than him than basically everyone else in the world lol.

My issue with him (and although he's FINALLY doing it) is that he never played in a pro league prior to his age 21 season, and really has only dominated against kids. It's amazing to see him do that, but he was clearly too good for the WHL before his overage season, and the Leafs didn't think it was worth sending him to the ECHL or the AHL.

I'm glad to see him now in the Czech pro league getting big minutes, and by all accounts playing very well. It definitely will get me back on him as it was the necessary next step in his development, but I think it's a bold statement saying he's ahead of Kokkonen right now; a guy that played his first pro game in his 15 year old season (and is finally dominating in his 19 year old season). Kokkonen has played 8 more pro games THIS YEAR in a better league than Kral, and is 1.25 years younger. Even Villeneuve putting up massive points in the Q in his 17 year old season has an argument to be ahead of Kral today. Age & comp are so vital.

Although I probably am moving up Kokkonen into the next tier (with Abramov, Hallander, Niemela, Hirvonen, Abruzzese) if he keeps up this performance, today I'd have Kral in the same tier as Kokkonen, Villeneuve, Hollowell, and possibly (soon-to-be added) Rindell.
Kral played 28 games for Brno in the Czech league the year before his draft (playoffs included) and 4 games in his DY.

I like Kokkonen and I get that his underlying numbers are good as well, specifically his CF%, but Kral passes the eye test better for me and has a higher ceiling because of his offensive ability. I don't think Kokkonen is good enough defensively to make up for his lack of production, which has been regressing every season since his draft year.
 
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Artur, was this in the VHL or KHL?
VHL
Hollowell still has ways to go, but I could see him playing 100 games (and being useful), even if it takes a strange path to the NHL. I could see his first "full" season being around the age of 25.
I could see that too. It might take him longer but could become an effective player.
Kral, after Niemela, is IMO the next best D prospect in the org. (outside of the obvious Lilj/Sandin).

In the Czech 2nd tier, he debuted with a 33:48 minute game, followed that up with a 25:42 second game, and averaged 25:35 ATOI in his 7 games there. Since being called up he's averaged over 20mins per game while playing on the same blue line as former top 40 picks in Zboril and Hajek, so he's not being gifted minutes. Rewatched the Czech vs. Russia game the other day (check it out on YT) and Kral was probably the best defender on the ice - that was years ago. His offensive creativity and agility have progressed significantly since and his transition play, size, and ability to deny zone entries while playing on his off-side suggest he'll fit like a glove down the road.
Agreed. I think he has every tool that he does at a decent level. Good offensive player who defends the way modern d man do now. In his D+1, I thought he was solid if unspectacular, and then took a leap in his overage season. It wasn't because he was an overager, he just took a big step in his play. It's too bad he was overshadowed by Ty Smith though.




I love Kral. If anyone remembers, I had him ranked at the top of the 2nd round on draft day 2018 based almost exclusively on his advanced stats being downright outrageous. I can pretty much guarantee I was higher than him than basically everyone else in the world lol.

My issue with him (and although he's FINALLY doing it) is that he never played in a pro league prior to his age 21 season, and really has only dominated against kids. It's amazing to see him do that, but he was clearly too good for the WHL before his overage season, and the Leafs didn't think it was worth sending him to the ECHL or the AHL.

I'm glad to see him now in the Czech pro league getting big minutes, and by all accounts playing very well. It definitely will get me back on him as it was the necessary next step in his development, but I think it's a bold statement saying he's ahead of Kokkonen right now; a guy that played his first pro game in his 15 year old season (and is finally dominating in his 19 year old season). Kokkonen has played 8 more pro games THIS YEAR in a better league than Kral, and is 1.25 years younger. Even Villeneuve putting up massive points in the Q in his 17 year old season has an argument to be ahead of Kral today. Age & comp are so vital.

Although I probably am moving up Kokkonen into the next tier (with Abramov, Hallander, Niemela, Hirvonen, Abruzzese) if he keeps up this performance, today I'd have Kral in the same tier as Kokkonen, Villeneuve, Hollowell, and possibly (soon-to-be added) Rindell.
I think thats a valid argument you made. We probably wanted more pro experience at this point but at least it's happening now. I think his AHL season will tell a lot.
Excluding Sandin and Lilly, I have Kokkonen, Kral, Niemela, Hollowell as my next tier of d man.
 
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Kral played 28 games for Brno in the Czech league the year before his draft (playoffs included) and 4 games in his DY.

I like Kokkonen and I get that his underlying numbers are good as well, specifically his CF%, but Kral passes the eye test better for me and has a higher ceiling because of his offensive ability. I don't think Kokkonen is good enough defensively to make up for his lack of production, which has been regressing every season since his draft year.

Man I completely forgot he played those games in pro. That many games in one season and moved to a lesser league in the WHL? What was he and his agent thinking.

I think you're too harsh on Kokkonen's defense. The reason why his rel.CF% this season is through the roof is because of his play defensively. He's actually being praised by quite a number of guys who get to watch his games (no Liiga in Canada without paying) saying that the best part of his game is his defense, and the production will come as he's been doing the right things.

Despite having no points, Mikko Kokkonen has had a terrific start to his season

Even then, I'm not worried about production from defenseman whatsoever unless you plan to have them on your PP in the future.
 
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Man I completely forgot he played those games in pro. That many games in one season and moved to a lesser league in the WHL? What was he and his agent thinking.

I think you're too harsh on Kokkonen's defense. The reason why his rel.CF% this season is through the roof is because of his play defensively. He's actually being praised by quite a number of guys who get to watch his games (no Liiga in Canada without paying) saying that the best part of his game is his defense, and the production will come as he's been doing the right things.

Despite having no points, Mikko Kokkonen has had a terrific start to his season

Even then, I'm not worried about production from defenseman whatsoever unless you plan to have them on your PP in the future.
offensive ability still does matter for a defenseman, as you don't want a regular defenseman in your lineup to only have value when they're playing in your own end and without the puck. For Kokkonen, I think he plays a very simple offensive game that pays off the higher level his teammates can play offensively. He's good at making simple plays that keep the offense alive, and he can shoot for rebounds/tips. Unfortunately he plays with players who sort of suck offensively, so it makes Kokkonen a lot worse than he should
 
There's a Finnish app that gives you 1 free Liiga broadcast per week with a VPN. I don't necessarily care about the production either, and don't want to knock Kokkonen because I think he has an NHL future, but it's a negative trend worth noting. Every defensive defensemen was once a competent junior scorer. In the CHL, that threshold is usually .5PPG. In the Liiga, harder to say, but definitely not 1 point in 14GP in your D+2. I do agree that he has adequate offensive habits, but i'd like to see more there.

Kral's puck skills and craftiness don't only translate to more offensive output, but make him harder to catch on the forecheck. He's a one man breakout for this reason. I just see that translating better, especially considering neither player possesses true separation speed.

Ideally they both make it because their ability to play both sides would be an asset.
 
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offensive ability still does matter for a defenseman, as you don't want a regular defenseman in your lineup to only have value when they're playing in your own end and without the puck. For Kokkonen, I think he plays a very simple offensive game that pays off the higher level his teammates can play offensively. He's good at making simple plays that keep the offense alive, and he can shoot for rebounds/tips. Unfortunately he plays with players who sort of suck offensively, so it makes Kokkonen a lot worse than he should

No you don't want your prospect to be a Chris "blackhole past his own blueline" Tanev, or Trevor Van Reimsdyk, but there is significantly more value in those types (as they're almost impossible to spot until they're in the NHL than there is a guy like Ryan Murphy, TJ Brennan, or Shayne Gostisbehere, as lack of defense without staggering offense (Rielly) will crush your career.

I completely agree with Kokkonen though. From what I've seen, he's got the ability to do the little things correct. Not only in the defensive zone, but also in the modern day defenseman way of how transition is arguably the most important thing- and it's not something he struggles with. If his in-zone defensive ability is for real, and his transition game stays good [enough], I can see him becoming an Ekholm style of player.

There's a Finnish app that gives you 1 free Liiga broadcast per week with a VPN. I don't necessarily care about the production either, and don't want to knock Kokkonen because I think he has an NHL future, but it's a negative trend worth noting. Every defensive defensemen was once a competent junior scorer. In the CHL, that threshold is usually .5PPG. In the Liiga, harder to say, but definitely not 1 point in 14GP in your D+2. I do agree that he has adequate offensive habits, but i'd like to see more there.

Kral's puck skills and craftiness don't only translate to more offensive output, but make him harder to catch on the forecheck. He's a one man breakout for this reason. I just see that translating better, especially considering neither player possesses true separation speed.

Ideally they both make it because their ability to play both sides would be an asset.

Ideally I'd like to see more production too, but I'm more interested in seeing what he's like while facing men on the worst possession team in the league. His team gets absolutely POUNDED without him on the ice.

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]2020-21[/TD][TD]CF[/TD][TD]CA[/TD][TD]CF%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Jukurit[/TD][TD]389[/TD][TD]510[/TD][TD]43.3%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Kokkonen On[/TD][TD]157[/TD][TD]168[/TD][TD]48.3%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Kokkonen Off[/TD][TD]232[/TD][TD]342[/TD][TD]40.4%[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

He just had a bad game so it took him under 50%, but the point still stands that when Jukurit has Kokkonen on the ice, they become a respectable team. Without him, they're literal garbage.

A 19 year old defenseman playing over 21 minutes per game with a 46.1 OZF% with a 7.9 rel.CF% is crazy impressive. Liiga is arguably a top-5 league in the world, and he's straight up dominating despite his horrible team.

I know oiSH% isn't a massive excuse or anything, but his is 4.3% is pathetic. Of the 103 defenseman that have played 8 or more games this season that mark ranks T-90th. 3 guys that rank below him are ON HIS TEAM. I don't think it can be overstated how bad his team actually is.
 
Kokkonen 2020-21 (so far):
14 GP
1 Point(s)
+7.9 .rel.CF%
46.1 OZF%
21:11 ATOI
4.3 oiSH%

Kokkonen 2019-20:
39 GP
10 Points
-4.7 rel.CF%
43.7 OZF%
18:57 ATOI
8.2 oiSH%

Kokkonen 2018-19:
56 GP
18 Points
-4.1 rel.CF%
40.2 OZF%
17:25 ATOI
9.1 oiSH%

That to me looks like a guy that took a MASSIVE step forward this season, regardless of the drop-off in points (which may be partly explained by the lack of oiSH% luck). If the points came with this type of massive improvement, we'd be talking about him potentially in the same breath as both Liljegren and Sandin (if he keeps this up).
 
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Man I completely forgot he played those games in pro. That many games in one season and moved to a lesser league in the WHL? What was he and his agent thinking.

I think you're too harsh on Kokkonen's defense. The reason why his rel.CF% this season is through the roof is because of his play defensively. He's actually being praised by quite a number of guys who get to watch his games (no Liiga in Canada without paying) saying that the best part of his game is his defense, and the production will come as he's been doing the right things.

Despite having no points, Mikko Kokkonen has had a terrific start to his season

Even then, I'm not worried about production from defenseman whatsoever unless you plan to have them on your PP in the future.
Honestly I don't think we should be surprised his production has taken a step back. His DY production was fantastic, but it went against the skills he has. His game is shutdown defence first simple hockey. The good thing is his low production is explained by the team and low OISH.
No you don't want your prospect to be a Chris "blackhole past his own blueline" Tanev, or Trevor Van Reimsdyk, but there is significantly more value in those types (as they're almost impossible to spot until they're in the NHL than there is a guy like Ryan Murphy, TJ Brennan, or Shayne Gostisbehere, as lack of defense without staggering offense (Rielly) will crush your career.

I completely agree with Kokkonen though. From what I've seen, he's got the ability to do the little things correct. Not only in the defensive zone, but also in the modern day defenseman way of how transition is arguably the most important thing- and it's not something he struggles with. If his in-zone defensive ability is for real, and his transition game stays good [enough], I can see him becoming an Ekholm style of player.



Ideally I'd like to see more production too, but I'm more interested in seeing what he's like while facing men on the worst possession team in the league. His team gets absolutely POUNDED without him on the ice.

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]2020-21[/TD][TD]CF[/TD][TD]CA[/TD][TD]CF%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Jukurit[/TD][TD]389[/TD][TD]510[/TD][TD]43.3%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Kokkonen On[/TD][TD]157[/TD][TD]168[/TD][TD]48.3%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Kokkonen Off[/TD][TD]232[/TD][TD]342[/TD][TD]40.4%[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
He just had a bad game so it took him under 50%, but the point still stands that when Jukurit has Kokkonen on the ice, they become a respectable team. Without him, they're literal garbage.

A 19 year old defenseman playing over 21 minutes per game with a 46.1 OZF% with a 7.9 rel.CF% is crazy impressive. Liiga is arguably a top-5 league in the world, and he's straight up dominating despite his horrible team.

I know oiSH% isn't a massive excuse or anything, but his is 4.3% is pathetic. Of the 103 defenseman that have played 8 or more games this season that mark ranks T-90th. 3 guys that rank below him are ON HIS TEAM. I don't think it can be overstated how bad his team actually is.
If you ask liga people and just look at his game, his defensive game is just that advanced and good. It's amazing he is doing this well when his team isn't even close to being competitive.

Kokkonen 2020-21 (so far):
14 GP
1 Point(s)
+7.9 .rel.CF%
46.1 OZF%
21:11 ATOI
4.3 oiSH%

Kokkonen 2019-20:
39 GP
10 Points
-4.7 rel.CF%
43.7 OZF%
18:57 ATOI
8.2 oiSH%

Kokkonen 2018-19:
56 GP
18 Points
-4.1 rel.CF%
40.2 OZF%
17:25 ATOI
9.1 oiSH%

That to me looks like a guy that took a MASSIVE step forward this season, regardless of the drop-off in points (which may be partly explained by the lack of oiSH% luck). If the points came with this type of massive improvement, we'd be talking about him potentially in the same breath as both Liljegren and Sandin (if he keeps this up).
It's funny how I was slightly concerned about him earlier in the season not knowing the full picture. The guy is playing amazing hockey on a brutal team.
 
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Abramov a beauty OT winner. Faceoff win, rush, gets the puck back and a perfect shot. Thats a captain coming through.
Also added an assist.
 
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Abramov got an assist as well in that game.

Villeneuve picked up an apple in an 8-6 loss as well. Saint John has played some games with absolutely wild scores this year
 
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