Marc Bergevin - Take It Or Leave It Edition

[lo striver]

If you're looking for direction on what is acceptable behavior, look at the posters who gave a like to the new rule and adapt. GHG all the way, dude.

The best part about this is that I can actually be a paid propagandist for the Habs and fit right in here, seamlessly.

Good times.

I like the new rule.

 

[417]

I always look forward to the changing of the guard. And in your case, it's the changing of the avatar.

I can never figure out where you might go with your next one.

However, I did follow the story of the kangaroo in your avatar. He was rescued when his mother was run over and grew in captivity, to proportions that make it look like he had been bodybuilding. He had quite the harem, sadly he recently passed away. I believe he has an offspring with his attributes. That guy is going to be a champ.

The change (again) in my avatar to Roger the Kangaroo was a dedication to his memory, I changed it the day I found out he died.

Been following him since he became famous

RIP Roger

 

[Runner77]

The change (again) in my avatar to Roger the Kangaroo was a dedication to his memory, I changed it the day I found out he died.

Been following him since he became famous

RIP Roger

Great pick. Nice way to use your avatar.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Galch looked great in his rookie year and that includes when we used him at center. Matter of fact, I vivily remember discussions about how sound he was defensively when he started with Prust and Gallagher. You'd rather have two guys in Domi-Drouin vs just Patches? Well ya, duh. But if you ask me to rank 12-13 Patches, present Domi and Drouin, I would probably put Pacioretty at the top. The guy was coming out of a beast year. I think people forgot how strong Patches played earlier on, crashing the net, battling in the corner, using his size, breaking Letang's head.
Up front, I'd give the edge to our current team, by a small margin.
Patches over Drouin for me.
Galch and Kotka - push
Gallagher - Gallagher - push
Domi over Plek..
Byron-Lek-Danault-Shaw-Tatar over Eller-DD-Gionta-Ryder.

So ya, I give our current forwards a slight edge. On defense though, it's laughably one sided, and it's probably why in 12-13, we we competing for the top spot, not a PO bubble one.


Disagree. Juulsen & Mete today are getting the same hype as Tinordi & Beaulieu back then.
Sure, maybe they will both become better, but at the time, people also very much believed we'd had two future regular NHLers. So much so that some considered Tinordi an untouchable (past threads fo 12-13 were brought up discussing this recently).

Revisionist history at best. People were jumping through hoops when they saw Beaulieu drop to us. A few had him in their top 10. Again, same with Tinordi where some viewed him as an untouchable.
After the 12-13 draft, people were ecstatic about our prospects man.
Montreal went as far as to suggest Hudon had 1st line potential...
Here's what you said about Galch:

You also gave an 8 to Hudon, suggesting he has ''amazing potential'' and is ''easily your favorite (prospect)''.
Here is something else you said after the 12-13 draft:


So ya man, revisionist history at its best. People were very excited about our prospects after 2012 pool, and then we came out of the gates swinging, with a bunch of kids doing very well, notably Eller, Pk, Galch, Gallagher, Patches, Price...

Except you're not looking at it fairly, and that's just human nature. You know those kids turned out crappy and you probably don't remember everything you said or believed at the time.

Again, that's only because you know what happened after 2012. Back then you were very pumped too.

Hey man it's cool man

Wow nice detective work. I was definitely pumped at that draft. I was also more deluded but fair enough.

But prospect for prospect who would you take from the way I'd group them?

 

[Runner77]

I like the new rule.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Pure ownage.

I applaud of you for calling out people's hypocrisy. Yes, many people are now saying that Timmins screwed up the 2012 selection, that Galchenyuk never had any defensive game, never had any IQ, etc. A lot of these same people were saying that the pick was a no brainer three years ago.

The fact is that at the time, the conversation revolved around Galchenyuk, Grigorenko, and Forsberg, as everyone understood that Murray and Yakupov would go top two, with Yakupov being widely perceived as a future 50-goal scorer. The fans applauded the Galchenyuk pick. He was subsequently rated the #1 prospect in the entire NHL. During his rookie campaign, posters applauded his defensive awareness, his IQ, his vision. He was most compared to Marian Hossa and Jonathan Toews. His rookie season production was on par with those of Stamkos and Tavares, in spite of having had less development time due to the knee injury and then the lockout. The only weakness that people noticed was face-offs.

So the retroactive clairevoyance on Galchenyuk is bull****.

If the Habs had drafted Filip Forsberg or Morgan Rielly, they would likely have busted.

where's my hypocrisy? I never said I didn't like the 2012 draft at the time. What I'm saying is this pool looks better when you group them player for player in a way where they rank fairly equally like I did above.

Jeez you're pretty gleeful. lol. You'd think I was some pr*ck on here or something hahaha.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Except it's easy to say for example Ylonen will be better the Collberg because we know Collberg failed. But guess what, there's a very good chance that Ylonen will not be an NHL player too. That's why it's important to look at what they were back then, because we don't know which among the current crop will disappoint and bust, and I can guarantee you some of them will.

Well look at how Collberg was at the same spot as where Ylonen is now?

Ylonen seems to be producing better and has better raw tools as far as I can see.

 

[CauZuki]

There's a fundemental difference between disagreements based on logic and the multi-factor mess that is human emotion. The main issue is when it's contrarian just for the sake of it , consistency of opinion is not what we should be striving for but engaging each other in a respectful and reasonable way. We should be able to admit when we are wrong and change our opinions when presented with new information that alters our perception of the situation.

That being said, the last thing anybody should want is a space where posters feel they can't fully express themselves in fear of hurting the easily offended. Enjoying some of the players we have on our team presently isn't mutually exclusive with wanting to compete for a lottery pick in the short-term or making the playoffs this year.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Price, Max, Subban and Gallagher had their careers ahead of them. That right there puts us well ahead of where we are now.

Domi has had a great start to the season and may well turn out better than Paccioretty but his career has been underwhelming so far, ditto with Drouin. Kotka and Suzuki are exciting prospects... they are the best we have. You want to say Kotka is better than Galchenyuk? Okay... but we didn't have to pick Galchenyuk and we didn't have to mismanage him the way we did. That was a pure ****up on MB's part.

As for depth players, we had Eller and Beau two good young prospects we we badly mismanaged. We also had Markov who was arguably better than anyone we have right now (including Weber.)

We were way further ahead before because we had actual HOF caliber talent on the roster with two players being arguably best in the league at their respective positions. We don't any player who looks like they'll be that good on the way up. Our two best players now are in the 2nd half of their careers. And this team isn't going to win anything anytime soon. So we might as well leverage them for trade value.

Those are solid points. Though these guys were mismanaged, I really don't know how much better they could've been. Eller's been better. I thought he got the rawest deal. I don't know if I'd say Beau was mismanaged. He was still young enough to get his crap together with Buffalo.

I really think we have more and better talent in all positions if you include prospects.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Posters are too busy hating on Bergevin and the whole organization so they want to blame Galchenyuks failures on everyone but Galchenyuk
I have no idea how one can say Reilly or forsberg would busted as a hab. That’s a Bizarro timeline
Galchenyuk and his poisonous family are to blame for his shortcomings.

I really thought he was going to get A LOT stronger and faster. He really just didn't which is bizarre because he seemed like such a gym rat. I guess like Cammy was. Could flip giant tires but it really didn't show on the ice in a useful way. The skating did get better but not really enough.

MB messed up a lot of things and we did mismanage players, Galchenyuk to an extent, but really at the end of the day he just didn't improve enough in the areas he needed too. He's still young enough where another team should be able to get him going again if it was our fault as much as it's been said.

I remember seeing Forsberg flying with the puck at the WJCs and got really worried that we made the wrong decision despite my yes HUGELY overhyping of Galchenyuk at the time lol.

 

[Sorinth]

Well look at how Collberg was at the same spot as where Ylonen is now?

Ylonen seems to be producing better and has better raw tools as far as I can see.

Well a year after being drafted at the prospects camp you thought Collberg was elite or near elite. Here's your post

So how good does Collberg look? Like elite or near elite upside?

Yet you now want me to believe that you think Ylonen has better tools/upside, and is what has above near elite upside?

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

There's a fundemental difference between disagreements based on logic and the multi-factor mess that is human emotion. The main issue is when it's contrarian just for the sake of it , consistency of opinion is not what we should be striving for but engaging each other in a respectful and reasonable way. We should be able to admit when we are wrong and change our opinions when presented with new information that alters our perception of the situation.

That being said, the last thing anybody should want is a space where posters feel they can't fully express themselves in fear of hurting the easily offended. Enjoying some of the players we have on our team presently isn't mutually exclusive with wanting to compete for a lottery pick in the short-term.

Yeah I don't get why instead of just engaging people with out the vitriol and anger people have to get all 'you need a safe space there, snowflake?' lol.

It's conversation about hockey for crying out loud. If you disagree with someone just say you disagree and why instead of making all these character judgements.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Well a year after being drafted at the prospects camp you thought Collberg was elite or near elite. Here's your post



Yet you now want me to believe that you think Ylonen has better tools/upside, and is what has above near elite upside?

Well I was asking if he was elite I wasn't saying he was.

Yes I was way overhyped by prospects back then. It was really my first forray into prospect watching at that level. So you can go back and find plenty of plenty of 'gee willickers Bozon's going to be the next Richer!' comments. There will be no shortage. Look at my join date if you don't believe me because the best way to engage with people is just assume they MUST be lying lol.

So regardless of my shameful past who looks better from the eye test?

 

[Kriss E]

Hey man it's cool man

Wow nice detective work. I was definitely pumped at that draft. I was also more deluded but fair enough.

But prospect for prospect who would you take from the way I'd group them?

Again, you can't really play that game because you already know the results from one group. It's just not fair. The best you can do is try to be impartial and remember how excited you were about some of the guys back then, but it's 6 years ago and as I showed you, it's obvious you don't clearly remember your stance towards some of the kids.
If I try to remember how I felt..
Mete and Juulsen, I'd choose Beaulieu and Tinordi over them, without question.
Suzuki over Leblanc for sure.
Poehling vs Vail? Why Vail? What if I put Hudon instead of Vail? He was your favorite prospect and you were incredibly high on him..
Brook over Collberg...for sure.
The rest...Ylvonen..Romanov...Fleury..etc...it's all the same man. Thrower..Vail..Bozon..again, you said all had NHL potential and were high on them. Add that to the rest of our group with DLR...Sherbak...
If I'm honest, I won't pretend to know much about those lower end prospects and I doubt most people here do as well. As if people have time to watch enough games of all the prospects to have well informed opinions on them.

For the group we have in the NHL...I already answered that. I give a slight edge to our current guys up front, but a massive one to the 12-13 on defense.
All in all, I think our team in the NHL is weaker today than it was in 12-13, but I'd give an edge to our prospect pool today mostly thanks to Suzuki and Brook, but it's pretty close.

The 12-13 season was very exciting. I don't think people remember just how awesome people were feeling about this organization. We were battling for the top spot in east mostly thanks to the addition of a #1D in Markov and two top 6 kids in Gallagher-Galch. To that, we were named the big winners of the 2012 draft by a lot of people, and those prospects were added to a group that were already interesting with Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Kristo, etc. It's pure revisionist history to believe people here weren't excited about those guys.
Heck...remember how awesome Avtsin was gonna be?? Ellis..Dietz...Some guys really liked those kids too.

 

[Kriss E]

Our defense is miles away from Tampa Bay. There's no getting around that.

However, Tampa is a poor example to prove your point. Almost their entire defense core was built by trade or free agency.

Stralman and Girardi were signed out of free agency, while McDonagh, Coburn and Sergachev were all acquired through trade. Now of course, in order to accomplish the things Tampa Bay has done, you have to 1) have a team that FA's are willing to sign with, and 2) have the assets (a surplus of assets, perhaps) required in order to make a trade to fill these gaps.

One can argue that if the Habs continue on this streak of success, they become a more desirable location for free agents (though still, I doubt they can compete with Tampa Bay overall due to many non-hockey related factors as well). As for trade assets, again, if the Habs continue on their current path, they will indeed have a surplus of wingers as well as some good prospects available to move in order to upgrade a position if it ever comes to the point where they would like to bolster the lineup.

I agree that the Habs seem pretty far away currently, but things change fast in the NHL and I would not be surprised if the Habs' defense looks DRASTICALLY different sooner than later. Just look at the Habs' forwards from two years ago to now for proof of that.

Most importantly...we need a savvy GM, which we do not have.

 

[sheed36]

I like the new rule.

I guess another problem I have with the new rule is I'm too ugly to be a cheerleader so there's that as well.

 

[HuGo Sham]

he gets a stay of execution for domi / pacioretty deals...
and the 15# pick
but the D is atrocious and entirely his fault...
needs fixing asap

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Again, you can't really play that game because you already know the results from one group. It's just not fair. The best you can do is try to be impartial and remember how excited you were about some of the guys back then, but it's 6 years ago and as I showed you, it's obvious you don't clearly remember your stance towards some of the kids.
If I try to remember how I felt..
Mete and Juulsen, I'd choose Beaulieu and Tinordi over them, without question.
Suzuki over Leblanc for sure.
Poehling vs Vail? Why Vail? What if I put Hudon instead of Vail? He was your favorite prospect and you were incredibly high on him..
Brook over Collberg...for sure.
The rest...Ylvonen..Romanov...Fleury..etc...it's all the same man. Thrower..Vail..Bozon..again, you said all had NHL potential and were high on them. Add that to the rest of our group with DLR...Sherbak...
If I'm honest, I won't pretend to know much about those lower end prospects and I doubt most people here do as well. As if people have time to watch enough games of all the prospects to have well informed opinions on them.

For the group we have in the NHL...I already answered that. I give a slight edge to our current guys up front, but a massive one to the 12-13 on defense.
All in all, I think our team in the NHL is weaker today than it was in 12-13, but I'd give an edge to our prospect pool today mostly thanks to Suzuki and Brook, but it's pretty close.


The 12-13 season was very exciting. I don't think people remember just how awesome people were feeling about this organization. We were battling for the top spot in east mostly thanks to the addition of a #1D in Markov and two top 6 kids in Gallagher-Galch. To that, we were named the big winners of the 2012 draft by a lot of people, and those prospects were added to a group that were already interesting with Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Kristo, etc. It's pure revisionist history to believe people here weren't excited about those guys.
Heck...remember how awesome Avtsin was gonna be?? Ellis..Dietz...Some guys really liked those kids too.

I definitely forgot Hudon and Pleks which you pointed out in the post before which was a good call.

Definitely didn't forget how much I hyped that first class. I copped to it in a reply to Sorinth. I was very wide eyed back then. I was a neophyte but you're right memory's a tricky thing. I still think it's possible to compare the two classes.

I was very optimistic back then. I remember it all very well. I also remember all the stuff I deluded myself with as well. I'm not QUITE as delusional now. lol.

I really think there's more genuine reasons to be optimistic now than back then. I could be wrong but I don't think it's the stretch that some of you think it is. But you are right there's just more talent out there on other teams as well. Seems like the talent quota league round has gone up by magnitudes so it is an up hill battle for sure.

 

[Runner77]

... Great job building such a great defense Marc. Go Habs Go!!

 

[Kriss E]

I definitely forgot Hudon and Pleks which you pointed out in the post before which was a good call.

Definitely didn't forget how much I hyped that first class. I copped to it in a reply to Sorinth. I was very wide eyed back then. I was a neophyte but you're right memory's a tricky thing. I still think it's possible to compare the two classes.

I was very optimistic back then. I remember it all very well. I also remember all the stuff I deluded myself with as well. I'm not QUITE as delusional now. lol.

I really think there's more genuine reasons to be optimistic now than back then. I could be wrong but I don't think it's the stretch that some of you think it is. But you are right there's just more talent out there on other teams as well. Seems like the talent quota league round has gone up by magnitudes so it is an up hill battle for sure.

The thing about being delusional is..you don't know that you are. lol

That aside, I was definitely more excited about the group in 12-13. We had just picked a top 3rd center, like Kokta, in Galch..a guy you viewed as Datsyukesque potential. We had added depth in the prospect pool. So, in the end, pretty similar. You can debate that you prefer the current group, but we were in a similar situation.
The difference is Price and PK back then. We had two superstars in the making, and they proved it by winning the Norris and all the trophies Price got. We have nothing like them on the current team.
Domi and Drouin are interesting, but they're not PK-Price level of dominance. We're not talking two guys that might be the best at their positions.
To PK-Price, you add Patches that was beasting. We had Eller that was trending up as well. And we had some good veteran depth in Plek-Gionta-Ryder, that was sweetened even more when our long time #1 Dman finally came back in Markov.
Things were very promising.

Right now...we have some interesting guys up front so there's that...but Weber-Petry do not compare to PK-Markov to me, and Price, well I want him traded.

 

[sheed36]

Maybe this is the reason why I haven't heard Lebrun say even once this season that MB is always working the phones. MB's phone and the defense he's built are in the same place which is the sewer.

 

[Runner77]

Maybe this is the reason why I haven't heard Lebrun say even once this season that MB is always working the phones. MB's phone and the defense he's built are in the same place which is the sewer.

Welcome to the New Age. The Sew Age.

 

[nhlfan9191]

There's a fundemental difference between disagreements based on logic and the multi-factor mess that is human emotion. The main issue is when it's contrarian just for the sake of it , consistency of opinion is not what we should be striving for but engaging each other in a respectful and reasonable way. We should be able to admit when we are wrong and change our opinions when presented with new information that alters our perception of the situation.

That being said, the last thing anybody should want is a space where posters feel they can't fully express themselves in fear of hurting the easily offended. Enjoying some of the players we have on our team presently isn't mutually exclusive with wanting to compete for a lottery pick in the short-term.

I live on this site to argue with posters who disagree with my opinion. What fun would it be if even half the people of this huge fan base agreed with my opinion? It’s all about the debates. Some drive you crazy, others make you defend yourself, and on and on. That’s why I love HF. More so speaking about HF Habs where no matter how much I fight with any one poster, I leave knowing we’re on the same team at the end of the day.

 

[Gravity]

Yeah I don't get why instead of just engaging people with out the vitriol and anger people have to get all 'you need a safe space there, snowflake?' lol.

It's conversation about hockey for crying out loud. If you disagree with someone just say you disagree and why instead of making all these character judgements.

People are sooooo bloody sensitive nowadays. Political correctness has turned into a doctrine that bans any thought than isn't generic, indoctrinated and bland.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Those are solid points. Though these guys were mismanaged, I really don't know how much better they could've been. Eller's been better. I thought he got the rawest deal. I don't know if I'd say Beau was mismanaged. He was still young enough to get his crap together with Buffalo.

I really think we have more and better talent in all positions if you include prospects.

None of the guys we have measure up to a young Price and Subban. And then there's Gallagher, Max, Eller and a 3rd overall. I don't see how we're anywhere close to that right now.

We are definitely better than where we were before the summer. Domi looks like he's going to pan out into something and he's helped Drouin (who to me, looks like he needs some carrying) and Suzuki's a great prospect. That's all well and good. But it's a far cry from where we were and I don't see us being anywhere near a cup contender. Look at Toronto... they might have four forwards better than our best and as much as we like to harp on their D ours is probably worse even with Weber coming back. The only edge we hold over anyone is in net and Price has taken a beating behind our blueline for a year and a half now.

We're a long ways off....