Marc Bergevin - Now is the Summer of our Discontent Edition

[scrubadam]

MB is getting a lot of "hate" for hiring his buddy over a competent alternative.
Perfectly normal, now move along.

So JJD is incompetent and according to you only got the job because he played with MB in high school. Hockey community is small, and in quebec most players of the same age group will know each other. Seems like dumb reason to hate on MB.

As I said I am waiting for 66 to join the foxhole since he was on that team too.

 

[Rapala]

Depth. He cost nothing and would spell Condon until Price was able to come back. Unfortunately he wasn't able to foresee that Price wasn't coming back.

Hard to create depth with a hole...

At least one that will hold water! LOL

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Who the hell knows if we make the playoffs at all even with Reimer....thats the real question

Well, we KNOW that Scrivens couldn't do it and we KNEW this back when we got him. \

Personally, I don't think you ever stop building through the draft, so disagree with that entirely. I'm glad draft picks weren't wasted on a pending UFA like Reimer who let's be honest, is not going to want to play behind Carey Price

That's likely the least desirable position in the entire NHL, its like being the backup QB to the best QB in the league.

I'm not saying that we should stop drafting picks.... but I'm certainly not afraid to deal a 2nd or 3rd for a guy who could save the season.

As for Reimer wanting to play behind Price, it's probably unlikely. It might've happened if he'd spent some time in Montreal and gotten to know the guys... His problem is that he'll have to find a team that needs a starter and there aren't many out there. Fleury will be hitting the market in all likelyhood as well.

This team needs to recognize that the window to win is NOW. We have to pick a direction here instead of continually drafting mediocre players. Better off just to deal those picks to rebuilding teams. The 9th overall this year will probably be a decent player but it will be three or four years before that guy can start really helping us. I'd much rather deal for a top six who can help us now. And YES I think we should also be knocking on Reimer's door. We can't have what happened last year happen again.

 

[417]

You don't have to technically provide anything, but if you want your opinion to be taken seriously in a debate or discussing, you need to back it up.
You learn that in highschool when you start learning about arguing and debates.

(mod)


Cool. That doesn't make going into next season with the same failed tandem a smart idea.

And you're the one saying I can't engage in a normal discussion??


Yes actually, they are. I always support my opinions with hard facts.


Improve every year since becoming a pro? He had one good AHL season, followed by a terrible NHL one.
Gaining experience doesn't mean improving. You have Tokarski as a perfect example. He came in to replace Price in the POs, he did well, then couldn't cut it as a regular back up.
You also do not seem to understand what the discussion is about and are moving this towards a ''Could Condon do well as a back up'', which is something I never denied. On the contrary, I said he could very well actually fill the spot.
The problem is YOU DO NOT KNOW IF HE CAN DO IT. You can ''think'' that he can, but you do not know it as a fact.
Considering how it was a massive fail last year, I do not see the point in taking the same risk.(mod)


He has never done it. Stop spreading this fictional idea that Condon already performed as a back up. He never did it.


I never had an issue with this idea actually, and I repeated it multiple times. (mod)

What I said is that going in next season with the same failed tandem is just stupid.
It doesn't mean Condon couldn't do a good job as a back up next year. It just means we do not know and should go into next season more prepared. It's called learning from your mistakes.

(mod)

I couldn't care less if you take my opinion seriously

Clearly, you're not interested in debating anything - you're goal is to try to laugh off any opinion that I may have that differs from yours, you ask for facts, but when those are provided, it's just more ammunition for you to attempt to ridicule me.

Again, I have provided facts as to why I think hes a capable backup for next year.

His performance as a rookie this year is that evidence. It wasnt ALL bad for Condon, he still had over 20 wins this year, played in 55 games, was even invited to the World Championships by the US

Clearly, there was 'some' growth with him as a goalie this year, sure the results weren't always there but again, he was a rookie 1 year removed from playing in the ECHL...can you tone down your expectations a little?

What did you expect him to win the Vezina or something?

Here's the fallacy with your 'argument'

Your main point is that Bergevin can't go into next year with Price/Condon as a tandem because it was a failed experiment.

Let's forget the fact that I see you doing a mile away with this - because you know VERY well that it's 99% sure that Price/Condon are coming back, you're just laying the foundation for more complaining come September

But like I said, let's forget that for one second.

You say the Price/Condon tandem was a failed experiment last year....

Hmmmm....last I checked, Carey Price played 12 games last year, when Carey Price (starter) and Mike Condon (backup) played together last year, the Habs were the best team in the league!

The only failed tandem from this past year that was a failed experiment was Condon/Tokarski and Condon/Scrivens

Tokarski is gone, so is Scrivens....so neither of those tandems are experiments Bergevin is going to attempt again

The Price/Condon tandem, although it's a short sample, was actually a successful one last year, at the very least, it's worth trying again as long as the circumstances are different this year

As in Price is the starter for 55-60 games and Condon takes the rest

 

[Habs4ev*]

Depth. He cost nothing and would spell Condon until Price was able to come back. Unfortunately he wasn't able to foresee that Price wasn't coming back.

how is an AHL goalie "depth"?

he cost us Kassien/Prust, so thats not nothing

 

[417]

Well, we KNOW that Scrivens couldn't do it and we KNEW this back when we got him. \

I'm not saying that we should stop drafting picks.... but I'm certainly not afraid to deal a 2nd or 3rd for a guy who could save the season.

As for Reimer wanting to play behind Price, it's probably unlikely. It might've happened if he'd spent some time in Montreal and gotten to know the guys... His problem is that he'll have to find a team that needs a starter and there aren't many out there. Fleury will be hitting the market in all likelyhood as well.

This team needs to recognize that the window to win is NOW. We have to pick a direction here instead of continually drafting mediocre players. Better off just to deal those picks to rebuilding teams. The 9th overall this year will probably be a decent player but it will be three or four years before that guy can start really helping us. I'd much rather deal for a top six who can help us now. And YES I think we should also be knocking on Reimer's door. We can't have what happened last year happen again.

Fair enough....just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that James Reimer could of saved the Habs season

Doesn't compute for me....he's never even been a starter in the NHL and it's not like he's some green rookie either

 

[Thebeastoftheeast]

Of course it can. It doesn't mean that he's "100% guaranteed" not to do anything though.

We were saying the exact same things LAST summer and he did nothing. We went into a massive slump this year and he did nothing. So...

I hope he does something, I really do. Even if he does though, he's still stuck us with Therrien AGAIN for this year.

I hope he does something legit positive ie adding a legit top 6 forward then I'll be content enough going into the 2016-2017 season. I would prefer 2 but hey baby steps right?

Therrien is like .... that VD that has the name of a crustacean... Habs fans are stuck with him like luggage. As long as he is in Montreal I will not pay good $$ for tickets at the Bell Center to watch the team play boring hockey and rely on Price to get wins.

As of right now I am at my lowest I have ever been as a Habs fan and that includes the late 90s due to Houle and Tremblay. If things aren't improved during the summer in my eyes I'll watch the first game against Toronto but I'll make no special effort to watch games the rest of the year whatsoever.

Not taking care of immediate needs which are obvious implies that management is content to get by on Price coming back and getting the team back into the playoffs and then anything can happen, right. I am tired of that line of B.S. - I am from Halifax and will concentrate on watching my hometown Mooseheads and my NHL viewing will consist of watching their recent alumni (Mackinnon, Drouin, Ehlers, hopefully Meier next year) play and also watch teams like the Blackhawks which are actually entertaining for the brand of hockey they play.

 

[Habs4ev*]

Fair enough....just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that James Reimer could of saved the Habs season

if Reimer could not save the season for us then that just proves how BAD this team really is,

Reimer got a HORRIBLE leaf team into the playoffs and came one game away from beating out a VERY GOOD boston team who went to the finals

 

[Thebeastoftheeast]

Well, we KNOW that Scrivens couldn't do it and we KNEW this back when we got him. \

I'm not saying that we should stop drafting picks.... but I'm certainly not afraid to deal a 2nd or 3rd for a guy who could save the season.

As for Reimer wanting to play behind Price, it's probably unlikely. It might've happened if he'd spent some time in Montreal and gotten to know the guys... His problem is that he'll have to find a team that needs a starter and there aren't many out there. Fleury will be hitting the market in all likelyhood as well.

This team needs to recognize that the window to win is NOW. We have to pick a direction here instead of continually drafting mediocre players. Better off just to deal those picks to rebuilding teams. The 9th overall this year will probably be a decent player but it will be three or four years before that guy can start really helping us. I'd much rather deal for a top six who can help us now. And YES I think we should also be knocking on Reimer's door. We can't have what happened last year happen again.

The 2014 9th overall pick was Ehlers- he played in the NHL at 19 and was a contributor for the Jets last year, it's not like he was still in junior though as a Mooseheads fan I would have loved having him here in Halifax.

If they pick right the kid they draft this year could be here in 2017-2018.

 

[417]

if Reimer could not save the season for us then that just proves how BAD this team really is,

Reimer got a HORRIBLE leaf team into the playoffs and came one game away from beating out a VERY GOOD boston team who went to the finals

Yeah....5 years ago

As for your comment about how bad this team was.

At some point this season, Ryan Johnston, Joe Hanley and Darren Dietz were in our top 6 D's

It was a fluke year for injuries, James Reimer wasn't changing that

 

[Habs4ev*]

Yeah....5 years ago

As for your comment about how bad this team was.

At some point this season, Ryan Johnston, Joe Hanley and Darren Dietz were in our top 6 D's

It was a fluke year for injuries, James Reimer wasn't changing that

i think Reimer is a lot better then most people think, or his numbers show, you have to remember he played most of his career so far on VERY BAD leaf teams

 

[smcgreg]

Full tank mode when you are solidly in a playoff spot is unforgiveable. It might make sense if you're a rebuilding team and want to offload vets. It makes NO sense when you have the best player in the world on the IR and aren't sure when he's coming back. It also makes no sense when your team was first across the board in all stats before his injury.

Deciding to freaking tank (which is not what happened btw) at the end of December is a freaking disgrace.

I'm not going to add to the debate on the goalie issue. It seems clear that MB thought CP might be back soon. Scrivens was a short term stop gap, not a playoff solution. In Jan/Feb, then full tank mode should have been on. As you point out, they were solidly in a playoff position, so, why go out and spend resources to get a better goalie. The assessment at the time probably was that Condon was decent, but couldn't carry the full starter mode and needed a bit of a break. There was enough of a cushion that it was probably unthinkable that they would miss the playoffs. So, again, just trying to give Condon a bit of a break until he went back to backup role. The unforgivable parts were too numerous to mention, but again, I don't see Scrivens as one of them.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Fair enough....just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that James Reimer could of saved the Habs season

Doesn't compute for me....he's never even been a starter in the NHL and it's not like he's some green rookie either

err...he is a starter. Sure, he never stayed a starter for a whole season (because of injuries, not winning, etc. etc) but he was a #1A/1B type goalie throughout most of his career. And frankly, he is a decent goalie. Well, average I would say. If on a good team he would actually have respectable numbers.
Mind you, I don't see how he would have saved our season though. Sure, he'll get us into the playoffs but our team just sucks too much for him to really do much more than that.

 

[417]

i think Reimer is a lot better then most people think, or his numbers show, you have to remember he played most of his career so far on VERY BAD leaf teams

And last year the Habs were very bad....so to assume that his acquisition alone would of changed the Habs fortunes, is quite a stretch

Would I prefer a Price/Reimer combo to Price/Condon? Sure

But not if i'm paying almost 10M per year for both of them

 

[scrubadam]

Well, we KNOW that Scrivens couldn't do it and we KNEW this back when we got him. \

I'm not saying that we should stop drafting picks.... but I'm certainly not afraid to deal a 2nd or 3rd for a guy who could save the season.

As for Reimer wanting to play behind Price, it's probably unlikely. It might've happened if he'd spent some time in Montreal and gotten to know the guys... His problem is that he'll have to find a team that needs a starter and there aren't many out there. Fleury will be hitting the market in all likelyhood as well.

This team needs to recognize that the window to win is NOW. We have to pick a direction here instead of continually drafting mediocre players. Better off just to deal those picks to rebuilding teams. The 9th overall this year will probably be a decent player but it will be three or four years before that guy can start really helping us. I'd much rather deal for a top six who can help us now. And YES I think we should also be knocking on Reimer's door. We can't have what happened last year happen again.

Thing is once we trade that 2nd or 3rd for Reimer the dominos start to fall. Everyone says we need offense. So for a playoff run MB needs to go and get another forward. Our Defense was made up of AHL'rs due to injuries that D is not cutting it for a playoff run so more assets on 2 or 3 Dmen.

So remove the Scrivens trade that was a move for a 3rd stringer to backup Fucale not replace Price.

You support trading our best prospects and draft picks to go into the playoffs with no Price/PK and Petry. Not to mention Gilbert and Beau? Yes its frustrating and maybe for you MB should be termed for that. With hindsight to many on this board that was not the right path to go down. We all don't have to agree but both sides have merit.

 

[SnapVirus]

The right path was to trade for Scrivens and tank.

You wont win a Stanley Cup without Subban, Petry and Price in the line-up.

The wrong path, was to not volubtarly tank faster. We could have drafted a superstar with a top5 overall. And we could have acquired a 3rd rounder for a healthy Gilbert.

 

[Kriss E]

I couldn't care less if you take my opinion seriously

Clearly, you're not interested in debating anything - you're goal is to try to laugh off any opinion that I may have that differs from yours, you ask for facts, but when those are provided, it's just more ammunition for you to attempt to ridicule me.

Jesus Christ man, get over it already.

Again, I have provided facts as to why I think hes a capable backup for next year.

You haven't provided factS, you provided ONE stat. A 9 game sample.
The fact I have to explain to you how selective you are is already troublesome.

His performance as a rookie this year is that evidence. It wasnt ALL bad for Condon, he still had over 20 wins this year, played in 55 games, was even invited to the World Championships by the US

And as you pointed out, 8 of those wins came in his first 9 games, which is why you don't base yourself on just 9 first games (not to mention they are his 9 first games EVER in the NHL). So he had 13 wins (over 20 wins...lol..ya...21, see how manipulative and leading you're being?)....in the remaining 46 games...Sure. That's not that bad...
World Championship...where he played behind Kinkaid, who you probably never or barely ever heard of before.

Clearly, there was 'some' growth with him as a goalie this year, sure the results weren't always there but again, he was a rookie 1 year removed from playing in the ECHL...can you tone down your expectations a little?

My expectations are lower than yours, which is why I want a more seasoned back up to come in.

What did you expect him to win the Vezina or something?

Yes, and the Hart of course.

Here's the fallacy with your 'argument'

Your main point is that Bergevin can't go into next year with Price/Condon as a tandem because it was a failed experiment.

There is no fallacy. We had a Price-Condon tandem. It failed. You coming up with excuses as to why it failed does not change the fact.
Going into next season where A) We do not know if Condon can actually fill in as a regular back up, and B) we do not know of Price's health, is just an unnecessary risk.

Let's forget the fact that I see you doing a mile away with this - because you know VERY well that it's 99% sure that Price/Condon are coming back, you're just laying the foundation for more complaining come September

Wow....Now this is just sad. You think I'm arguing about this just so I can come back in September to whine???
Holy crap man. Now that's just flat out insulting. That's so lame.

I think we're getting a back up. If we don't, it's a risk. I won't complain about it unless it blows up in his face.

But like I said, let's forget that for one second.

You say the Price/Condon tandem was a failed experiment last year....

I don't say. We know it did.

Hmmmm....last I checked, Carey Price played 12 games last year, when Carey Price (starter) and Mike Condon (backup) played together last year, the Habs were the best team in the league!

The Price-Condon combination was a failure. Giving an excuse doesn't change the fact it failed.
Yes, if Price is healthy, it will work. Just like with a healthy Price, you can have a terrible Tokarski or Budaj, it will work.
That's supposed to be helping your case?

The only failed tandem from this past year that was a failed experiment was Condon/Tokarski and Condon/Scrivens

Going into the season with Price-Condon failed. Case closed. Stop spewing out excuses. It failed.

Tokarski is gone, so is Scrivens....so neither of those tandems are experiments Bergevin is going to attempt again

Thank the lord. And we should bring in a more seasoned veteran too. It's the same reason why Bergevin always brings in cheap veteran depth dman instead of simply relying on his youngsters.

The Price/Condon tandem, although it's a short sample, was actually a successful one last year, at the very least, it's worth trying again as long as the circumstances are different this year

As in Price is the starter for 55-60 games and Condon takes the rest

Bottom line is Price's health is completely unknown and if he needs to miss a significant amount of time (not half the season, but say 20-25 games) then you have no clue if Condon can actually do the job. Matter of fact, he failed at it last year.

So, cry me a freaking river if I think we should prepare a little more than give the role to a youngster who just failed and couldn't handle the heavier load of stepping in for more than 10 games.

Seriously, cry me a ****ing river.

 

[Hoople]

The right path was to trade for Scrivens and tank.

You wont win a Stanley Cup without Subban, Petry and Price in the line-up.

The wrong path, was to not volubtarly tank faster. We could have drafted a superstar with a top5 overall. And we could have acquired a 3rd rounder for a healthy Gilbert.

Tanking is a myth launched on Internet forums. It's a compensatory mechanism to allow fans to avoid admitting that their team had a bad season.

Why?

Why would any single player in the NHL sacrifice their career for a draft pick? Players understand that team is very important. They also understand that they can be traded and/or increase their salary via free agency.

Imagine player X actually quit trying in order to "tank". He is a free agent. During negotiations with his new team, he tells the GM that he really could have scored 30 goals. But instead, he was tanking for a draft pick.

Doesn't happen.

 

[417]

Hilarious KrissE....I mean what the point even debating this with you when you're distorting facts just so you can flex your argumentative muscles

Saying Price/Condon as a tandem was a failed experiment just isn't true...they were the most successful combo when they were ACTUALLY a tandem lol

The Habs were the best team in the league with them as a tandem. Pretty impressive the lengths you'll go to to try to beat your ideology into people.

You are deliberately twisting and turning the facts to fit your argument

The TANDEM of Price (starter) and Condon (backup) was very good. As long as those 2 variables remain the same (Price starter and Condon backup) there's no reason to think it couldn't work out....

What you're trying, and I say that loosely, is using the results ofCondon/Tokarski and Condon/Scrivens tandems, to 'try' to show that coming back with Price/Condon tandem, has already proven unsucessful.

You might have others fooled here....but not me.

 

[Kriss E]

Hilarious KrissE....I mean what the point even debating this with you when you're distorting facts just so you can flex your argumentative muscles

Saying Price/Condon as a tandem was a failed experiment just isn't true...they were the most successful combo when they were ACTUALLY a tandem lol

The Habs were the best team in the league with them as a tandem. Pretty impressive the lengths you'll go to to try to beat your ideology into people.

You are deliberately twisting and turning the facts to fit your argument

The TANDEM of Price (starter) and Condon (backup) was very good. As long as those 2 variables remain the same (Price starter and Condon backup) there's no reason to think it couldn't work out....

What you're trying, and I say that loosely, is using the results ofCondon/Tokarski and Condon/Scrivens tandems, to 'try' to show that coming back with Price/Condon tandem, has already proven unsucessful.

You might have others fooled here....but not me.

Whatever you say there buddy...going in with Price-Condon was fantastic. Loved our season.
Let's do it again.

 

[S Bah]

Twelve more days until the start of the summer of continuity for the Montreal Canadiens, as usual Marc Bergevin & Staff had their collective fingers on the pulse of NHL hockey. The greatest event before June 21st for the Habs fans, was the signing of Kirk Muller ASAP, literally sounds like Marc had the phone line to Kirk busy for the entire time, Until he signed. This is a huge signal to lifelong Habs fans, such as myself, that our team's focus will become more a style of puck possession. Any Habs fan that seen Kirk play hockey, knows he's Bullish on owning the puck & winning, two of the attributes oldtime Habs fans expected as a right of passage.

Having the personable Kirk Muller(Associate Coach) with Michel Therrien(The Taskmaster) should see a cohesion amongst the team, without the turmoil created by very minor incidents, the Montreal(The Mecca of Hockey) media thrives on, keeping the Glorious Habs at the forefront of news daily. The "Core Group" in Montreal is young, very strong in the fundamentals of hockey, as they are talented. Having quality depth down the middle, an historic strength of the 24 Stanley Cup Championship Habs teams. Not only quality depth at center, the wingmen quality has been slowly improving, besides Pacioretty & Gallagher, there are many young prospects pushing for their opportunities to break into the lineup. As witnessed this past season, due to the horrendous amount of injuries to key personnel.

This summer is integral to install the importance of becoming a truly "Elite Contender", teams that win Stanley Cup banners, play puck possession games. This requires a defence that can move the puck quickly in transition, along with playing a stingy defensive game in front of the best "Goalie on the Planet". The biggest bone of discontent amongst the fans, being Habs offensive game. As any fan can quickly notice watching Pittsburgh's play in the SC Finals, offence is created by continuously forechecking the opposition, beating them to the puck, winning the board battles & corner battles, by being first to the puck, having the quickness & desire to Own the Puck, as all Habs SC Championship teams have done.(At least since I started watching my Habs in the early 50's, the start of the 1st NHL Dynasty Team, 5 SC's in 5 consecutive seasons) I know I'm Bullish on my Habs & always will be, Go Habs Go!!!...

Team Canada has the World Cup first, Go Canada Go, next is the return of the Habs as a powerful threat to win the SC, once again as they should be, all will be right in the Hockey World. The expansion to Las Vegas will be the first announcement this summer on June 22nd, the day after the summer equinox, two days later the excitement of our 2nd Top Ten pick in 4yrs. will occur in Buffalo. No discontentment felt by this Habs fan, our team is just coming together this September 2016, and 2016/17 season promises to bring back the belief in our franchise as it should be IMHO!!!...

So glad our regime once again look for not only talented & exciting prospects, but the character types that are great leaders. Like the great captains of numerous hockey dynasties in the NHL since those in the 50's through to this era, Beliveau's, Trottier's, Messier's, Lemieux's, Lindstrom's & Toew's, the driving force alongside all of the "Glue Guys" necessary to win 4 best of seven series of "Wars on Ice".

 

[Sterling Archer]

Hilarious KrissE....I mean what the point even debating this with you when you're distorting facts just so you can flex your argumentative muscles

Saying Price/Condon as a tandem was a failed experiment just isn't true...they were the most successful combo when they were ACTUALLY a tandem lol

The Habs were the best team in the league with them as a tandem. Pretty impressive the lengths you'll go to to try to beat your ideology into people.

You are deliberately twisting and turning the facts to fit your argument

The TANDEM of Price (starter) and Condon (backup) was very good. As long as those 2 variables remain the same (Price starter and Condon backup) there's no reason to think it couldn't work out....

What you're trying, and I say that loosely, is using the results ofCondon/Tokarski and Condon/Scrivens tandems, to 'try' to show that coming back with Price/Condon tandem, has already proven unsucessful.

You might have others fooled here....but not me.

Didn't Condon set a rookie record for consecutive wins (9) and Price was 10-2, I believe, before he got injured and we were the best defensive, offensive and overall team in the NHL.

Sounds terrible...

 

[417]

Whatever you say there buddy...going in with Price-Condon was fantastic. Loved our season.
Let's do it again.

Considering when they were a tandem....the Habs were the best team in the league.

Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with that..

It seems you've forgotten the fact Price was lost for the season sometime in November/December and Condon had to play as the #1

But sure....i won't prevent you from trying to play it off like Price/Condon were our goalie's all year

I'm sure you'll have some people on here bite on that lure

 

[Kriss E]

Didn't Condon set a rookie record for consecutive wins (9) and Price was 10-2, I believe, before he got injured and we were the best defensive, offensive and overall team in the NHL.

Sounds terrible...

And then what happened?...THAT is the freaking point.

 

[Kriss E]

Considering when they were a tandem....the Habs were the best team in the league.

Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with that..

It seems you've forgotten the fact Price was lost for the season sometime in November/December and Condon had to play as the #1

But sure....i won't prevent you from trying to play it off like Price/Condon were our goalie's all year

I'm sure you'll have some people on here bite on that lure

We went into the season with Price-Condon. THAT failed. Whether there was an injury or not is completely irrelevant because it FAILED.

So if we have another injury to Price next year, Condon who FAILED to back up Price when we needed him the most, could very well fail again.

Jesus Christ man.