Marc Bergevin - More Excuses Needed... Edition Pt 2

[The Great Weal]

"Dumping" Drouin and replacing him with Duchene is not a major upgrade.

It's at best a lateral move.

Adding Duchene to what the Habs already have is an upgrade...but dumping a productive player in Drouin, is just re-arranging the furniture.

How the heck is it a lateral move? Duchene is twice the goalscorer and a much better player. Its not even close.

 

[417]

How the heck is it a lateral move? Duchene is twice the goalscorer and a much better player. Its not even close.

It's not a lateral move if you're adding Duchene to what we already have.

If you're dumping Drouin (which insinuates you're not getting anything of significance in return)...then no, it's not an upgrade.

It's a lateral move.

If you want to add Duchene...add him, there's no need to "dump" Drouin in the process.

That makes no sense.

Duchene the last 5yrs has been a 55-60pt player...Drouin over his first two seasons with the Habs has averaged 52pts.

You tell me where this upgrade is?

Again, I can get down with the notion that Duchene> Drouin, I would agree with that, but I disagree that the difference is so big that adding one and dumping the other would result in a significant difference for this team.

You're swapping out one enigmatic albeit talented player for another enigmatic and talented player.

 

[The Great Weal]

It's not a lateral move if you're adding Duchene to what we already have.

If you're dumping Drouin (which insinuates you're not getting anything of significance in return)...then no, it's not an upgrade.

It's a lateral move.

If you want to add Duchene...add him, there's no need to "dump" Drouin in the process.

That makes no sense.

Duchene the last 5yrs has been a 55-60pt player...Drouin over his first two seasons with the Habs has averaged 52pts.

You tell me where this upgrade is?

Again, I can get down with the notion that Duchene> Drouin, I would agree with that, but I disagree that the difference is so big that adding one and dumping the other would result in a significant difference for this team.

You're swapping out one enigmatic albeit talented player for another enigmatic and talented player.

It's not a lateral move. Drouin got most of his points because he was riding shotgun with Domi as the driver. He was gifted PP time and he still sucked. There is a reason why Julien benched him occasionally even on the third line, hes liability on most nights.

Duchene is a better goalscorer, better player, a center, isnt a liability...etc

Duchene is helping his team big time during the most important stretch, Drouin was arguably our worst forward during the most important stretch.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I’m rarely in the camp of going after a big fish FA, but Duchene just seems like the right player at the right time.

 

[417]

It's not a lateral move.

I think swapping out a 50pt player for a 55-60pt player, is a lateral move for this team.

Especially when there's no need to dump Drouin at all.

Drouin got most of his points because he was riding shotgun with Domi as the driver. He was gifted PP time and he still sucked. There is a reason why Julien benched him occasionally even on the third line, hes liability on most nights.

Drouin got 53pts, which made him the 3rd highest on the team in points...on a team with an inept PP.

You can dismiss his contributions and his ability all you want, facts are facts, he's still a productive top 6 player on this team.

Duchene is a better goalscorer, better player, a center, isnt a liability...etc

I acknowledge that Duchene is a better player but stop acting like we're comparing Sidney Crosby to Nate Thompson.

The difference between both players isn't nearly as big as you're making it seem...especially not if one is dumped and the other added.

Which top 9 do you prefer?

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Lehkonen

or

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Lehkonen-Kotkaniemi-Armia

???

Seems pretty obvious...one group is upgrade, the other is not compared to what we had this year.

Duchene is helping his team big time during the most important stretch, Drouin was arguably our worst forward during the most important stretch.

Again...I think you're missing the point.

The discussion isn't about Duchene vs Drouin...the discussion is about what makes the Habs better

Duchene + Drouin?

or

just Duchene?

 

[The Great Weal]

I think swapping out a 50pt player for a 55-60pt player, is a lateral move for this team.

Especially when there's no need to dump Drouin at all.

Except that Duchene is a 60+ point player. It's NOT a lateral move. He's twice the goalscorer and player. Drouin literally got most of his 50 points by playing with Domi and get a shit ton of PP minutes. He's not a good player.

Drouin got 53pts, which made him the 3rd highest on the team in points...on a team with an inept PP.

You can dismiss his contributions and his ability all you want, facts are facts, he's still a productive top 6 player on this team.

The PP was inept and he was the most used forward. He was a major reason why it was 2nd last in the league. He can be productive as long as he is being gifted ice time with the best center on the team and getting ample PP time.

I acknowledge that Duchene is a better player but stop acting like we're comparing Sidney Crosby to Nate Thompson.

The difference between both players isn't nearly as big as you're making it seem...especially not if one is dumped and the other added.

Which top 9 do you prefer?

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Lehkonen

or

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Lehkonen-Kotkaniemi-Armia

???

Seems pretty obvious...one group is upgrade, the other is not compared to what we had this year.

The difference isn't as big as Crosby and Thompson, but it's still pretty evident. Drouin was probably worse than Thompson during the most important stretch of the season while Duchene is playing great in the playoffs.

Dumped for what? I can't answer that question without knowing the return for Drouin.

Again...I think you're missing the point.

The discussion isn't about Duchene vs Drouin...the discussion is about what makes the Habs better

Duchene + Drouin?

or

just Duchene?

What's the return for Drouin? People are obviously exaggerating when they say that they would trade him for a 2nd or whatever it was they said.

 

[Kriss E]

It's not a lateral move if you're adding Duchene to what we already have.

If you're dumping Drouin (which insinuates you're not getting anything of significance in return)...then no, it's not an upgrade.

It's a lateral move.

If you want to add Duchene...add him, there's no need to "dump" Drouin in the process.

That makes no sense.

Duchene the last 5yrs has been a 55-60pt player...Drouin over his first two seasons with the Habs has averaged 52pts.

You tell me where this upgrade is?

Again, I can get down with the notion that Duchene> Drouin, I would agree with that, but I disagree that the difference is so big that adding one and dumping the other would result in a significant difference for this team.

You're swapping out one enigmatic albeit talented player for another enigmatic and talented player.

I wish you would have understood this back when I was telling you this about Radu+Serg vs Drouin. Would have saved us some back and forth.

I agree with you here. I dont want to add Duchene when we already have an inconsistent guy in Drouin. Only way I'm good with Duchene is if we move Drouin for a Dman.

 

[417]

Except that Duchene is a 60+ point player. It's NOT a lateral move. He's twice the goalscorer and player. Drouin literally got most of his 50 points by playing with Domi and get a **** ton of PP minutes. He's not a good player.

Duchene's had more then 60pts 3 times in a 10yr career...knowing how every player who plays here gets at least 10pts shaven off their career average, i'm not prepared to say that Duchene is guaranteed to ba a 60+pts player should he sign with the Habs moving forward.

And again, I get you don't like Drouin...but that still doesn't mean it makes sense for this team to "dump" Drouin.

I mean, what's the point?

The PP was inept and he was the most used forward. He was a major reason why it was 2nd last in the league. He can be productive as long as he is being gifted ice time with the best center on the team and getting ample PP time.

Yeah...I don't think so. The major reason why it was 2nd last in the league is because it's very predictable.

As far as him getting gifted ice time with the best center on the team...this is still irrelevant to the point of the discussion.

The difference isn't as big as Crosby and Thompson, but it's still pretty evident. Drouin was probably worse than Thompson during the most important stretch of the season while Duchene is played great in the playoffs.

Recency bias in full effect - prior to this, Duchene had played in 8 playoff games in his entire career and hadn't scored a goal.

He's playing great now and i'm down with signing the guy...but let's wait a bit before we turn him into the next Mark Messier.

Dumped for what? I can't answer that question without knowing the return for Drouin. What's the return for Drouin? People are obviously exaggerating when they say that they would trade him for a 2nd or whatever it was they said.

Well maybe that's the problem with this place - you can't have actual discussions because people would rather grandstand then argue in good faith.

The post to which I originally responded too said that adding Duchene and DUMPING Drouin, would be an upgrade on this team.

Does "dumping" sound like someone who wants to make a hockey trade to improve the team?

Or does it sound like someone who just wants to "dump" a player and his contract for whatever they could get??

If the goal is to add Duchene, then trade Drouin for a top 4 LHD...then yes, THAT is an upgrade.

But just dumping the guy for anything is NOT an upgrade.

 

[417]

I wish you would have understood this back when I was telling you this about Radu+Serg vs Drouin. Would have saved us some back and forth.

Not quite since Radu+Sergachev have nothing to do with Drouin and i'll never understand why anyone links them together. As i've said several times, I was fine with losing Radulov...as long as MB had found a way to even adequately replace him, instead he signed Ales Hemsky.

Massive fail.

I agree with you here. I dont want to add Duchene when we already have an inconsistent guy in Drouin. Only way I'm good with Duchene is if we move Drouin for a Dman.

I'd love to add Duchene to the mix of forwards we already have...then that's an upgrade or if like you said, you then swap Drouin out for a top 4 LHD, then you're upgrading.

However, if you're just adding Duchene and "dumping" Drouin...I fail to see how this team has gotten better.

 

[HuGo Sham]

not buying ANY of the duchene hype. i tuned out after lecavalier / taveres/ insert anyone

 

[admiralcadillac]

Getting rid of Drouin makes ZERO sense unless you get a quality piece back. Just none.

 

[417]

Getting rid of Drouin makes ZERO sense unless you get a quality piece back. Just none.

I get that Drouin's got his warts as a player...but man, the way he's hated around here makes me think it has more to do with who he was traded for and who traded for him.

 

[The Great Weal]

Duchene's had more then 60pts 3 times in a 10yr career...knowing how every player who plays here gets at least 10pts shaven off their career average, i'm not prepared to say that Duchene is guaranteed to ba a 60+pts player should he sign with the Habs moving forward.

His career average is 60+ points. I have a lot more confidence in Duchene doing that than Drouin.

As far as him getting gifted ice time with the best center on the team...this is still irrelevant to the point of the discussion.

Not really. He had like 4 points in 28 games or something like that when he wasnt playing with Domi. I doubt he scores 50 points if Domi was a 60 point player. Hes a passenger and a liability if he isnt being treated like a king. I dont think you acknowledge this. Drouin was absolutely f***ing terrible in the 2nd half of the season. Like REALLY bad. I remember vividly when he made that same stupid costly turnover for 8 games in a row even when Julien called him out on it. Hes getting benched in important games because he isnt good. Domi covered up A LOT of Drouins issues.

Recency bias in full effect - prior to this, Duchene had played in 8 playoff games in his entire career and hadn't scored a goal.

He's playing great now and i'm down with signing the guy...but let's wait a bit before we turn him into the next Mark Messier.

Lol so it's ok for people to call Drouin a playoff beast or whatever because of one playoff run, but we shouldn't do the same for Duchene. Sounds fair. I also love how you just completely ignore Duchenes 70 point season this year which is MUCH better than the 55-60 point player that you believe he is. Recency bias or not, you cant just simply ignore this because it doesnt fit your argument.
[/QUOTE]

 

[417]

His career average is 60+ points. I have a lot more confidence in Duchene doing that than Drouin.

I'll repeat it again...over his 10yr career, Matt Duchene has recorded 60+ 3 times.

2010-11 (67pts)
2013-14 (70pts)
2018-19 (70pts)

If the Habs did sign Duchene, i'd have a lot more confidence in him getting 60+pts if this team didn't subtract productive players from the top 6 as a "dump".

Not really. He had like 4 points in 28 games or something like that when he wasnt playing with Domi. I doubt he scores 50 points if Domi was a 60 point player. Hes a passenger and a liability if he isnt being treated like a king. I dont think you acknowledge this. Drouin was absolutely ****ing terrible in the 2nd half of the season. Like REALLY bad. I remember vividly when he made that same stupid costly turnover for 8 games in a row even when Julien called him out on it. Hes getting benched in important games because he isnt good. Domi covered up A LOT of Drouins issues.

I've acknowledged several times since the year ended that Drouin struggled mightly the last 20-25 games, I've also said several times that he really needs to focus on what type of player he wants to become moving forward.

So you'd be incorrect here.

I think one of the ways Drouin could improve, beyond changing certain things in his game, is by the team augmenting the talent level around him so that he's putting so much pressure on himself to produce not to mention that the spotlight and focus wouldn't be on him as much.

You do this by signing a Duchene.

Lol so it's ok for people to call Drouin a playoff beast or whatever because of one playoff run, but we shouldn't do the same for Duchene. Sounds fair.

I'm not one of these people, i've never said this and I generally think terms like "playoff beasts" or "playoff chokers" are ridiculous fan/media invented narratives that really hold no value.

For years, all I read on here was that Max Pacioretty was a "playoff choker"...yet here we are with the Knights eliminated and he's still 2nd in playoff scoring.

So, again, you'd be incorrect here.

I also love how you just completely ignore Duchenes 70 point season this year which is MUCH better than the 55-60 point player that you believe he is. Recency bias or not, you cant just simply ignore this because it doesnt fit your argument.

I didn't completely ignore that...in fact, i've highlighted it SEVERAL times during each of our interactions.

So once again, you'd be incorrect here.

 

[Justin11]

I get that Drouin's got his warts as a player...but man, the way he's hated around here makes me think it has more to do with who he was traded for and who traded for him.

I don't even understand the deep hate he gets here. Yes he did struggle down the stretch and was at times frustrating to watch, but i'm not prepared to just give him away.

Hopefully he will come back better next season.

 

[417]

I don't even understand the deep hate he gets here. Yes he did struggle down the stretch and was at times frustrating to watch, but i'm not prepared to just give him away.

Hopefully he will come back better next season.

Some of it is of his own doing...his perceived entitled attitude, whether warranted or not.

Some of it is "hate by proxy".

 

[G0bias]

This "productive player" was actually out-produced by nearly the entire top-9 at even strength.
But in the land where Radulov has the same impact as Tyler Bozak simply because 54pts, I can see how one would think, on the surface, 53pts was actually good without digging any further.

That being said, I think we could get comparable value to what we initially thought we'd get with Domi, given the junior pedigree and 3rd overall shine might not have completely worn off to some GMs' eyes yet.

 

[Guns n Roses]

You're "dumping" a productive player in Drouin (53pts)

Then adding a productive player in Duchene.

How did the Habs improve here exactly?

It's all good to laugh, but at least justify your (weak) position.

I'm all for adding Duchene...that WOULD be an upgrade, but not if you turn around and just dump Drouin.

That makes no sense...if the Habs want Duchene, why would they need to dump Drouin?

We want to make additions to improve this team...you improve by adding, not subtracting and then adding.

Matt Duchene finished this season with 70pts...which equalled his career high of 70pts in the 2013-14 season.

His point totals since that 2013-14 season are

55pts
59pts
41pts
59pts

I can get down with the notion that Duchene > Drouin...but the difference isn't that significant, and it's surely not worth just dumping Drouin and then expecting this team to take a significant leap forward.

 

[417]

This "productive player" was actually out-produced by nearly the entire top-9 at even strength.
But in the land where Radulov has the same impact as Tyler Bozak simply because 54pts, I can see how one would think, on the surface, 53pts was actually good without digging any further.

That being said, I think we could get comparable value to what we initially thought we'd get with Domi, given the junior pedigree and 3rd overall shine might not have completely worn off to some GMs' eyes yet.

You're missing the point...

You don't just dump Drouin and replace him with Duchene and think you've upgraded your team.

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense.

If you trade Drouin and get a comparative player either up front or on D AND add Duchene...then yes, you can argue you've upgraded your team.

 

[417]

It's been real

 

[DarkSender]

I defend Bergevin a lot cause he's in my mind clearly not an idiot. I just think he's super bad at speaking out to the media. He seems to learn from his past mistakes and that would be the only reason I would keep him as a GM.

From what I remember out of the blue..

The bad thing he did and that I hope he knows/understands and not repeat again:

1. The way Radulov/Markov contracts was handled: You can't say, 3-4 days prior to his signature with Dallas that if you want loyalty buy a dog and then leave Markov hanging without any calls. That was cheap, and smelling hypocrisy so hard.
2. Shaw for 2 second round picks and a 3.9M$ contract for 5 years. An offer sheet with the same contract would have costed a lot less.
3. Asking Subban and Price to stop their triple low five... WHY ??? Just leave the guys having fun in the game.
4. Creating a Subban vs Pacioretty captaincy race. And naming Pacioretty after that.
5. (BIGGEST MISTAKE) Not signing Eric Staal - when he left the Hurricanes. He could have been our top #1 center, followed by Plecky and Eller/Desharnais. I remember at that time telling my friends that Staal would be perfect fit in Montreal (2016 Edition).
6. Subban vs Weber: We should have done everything to help grow Subban in a good offensive defenceman. The way this guy was managed by Therrien and the coaching staff was bad. Like.. really bad.

What he did well:

1. Vanek, Danault, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk trade. (Best would have been to keep those two former Habs.. but management was so bad that Pacioretty became cancer and Chucky lost his way.)
2. Pacioretty, Desharnais , Markov and Cole contracts/trades - followed with Ryder trade. Remember Markov just recovered from a huge injury and was 32 and signed 5M for 3 years.
3. Moen vs Gonchar - great leader for Beaulieu. Unfortunately did not worked well at the end for the latter.
4. (BEST SIGNATURE) Bringing Stephane Waite. Huge results as Price transformed completely after his venue.
5. Subban vs Weber: At least we got a huge leader and the best captain possible for Montreal in Weber for Subban. The bad part of the trade was the result that Subban needed to leave. The good part is that we received a beast in Weber. 2M$ less in cap space + leadership in and off the ice. See how Subban is in trade rumors at Nashville even now.. and when asked about it, he's not even saying that he wants to stay.

At the end. None of what he did well is good drafting and picks. And that is the reason why Bergevin had to say "reset" last season. When you reset something, you're actually beginning from ZERO. That means that Bergevin is saying that the last 5-6 years is a failing. And I would say the same. He failed. He learnt. Lets give him another 2 years (end of contract) and see where the team is at.

If they don't make the playoffs next year, I won't be surprised. We still don't have a team for that compared to others in the east.

 

[The Great Weal]

I'll repeat it again...over his 10yr career, Matt Duchene has recorded 60+ 3 times.

2010-11 (67pts)
2013-14 (70pts)
2018-19 (70pts)

If the Habs did sign Duchene, i'd have a lot more confidence in him getting 60+pts if this team didn't subtract productive players from the top 6 as a "dump".


I've acknowledged several times since the year ended that Drouin struggled mightly the last 20-25 games, I've also said several times that he really needs to focus on what type of player he wants to become moving forward.

So you'd be incorrect here.

I think one of the ways Drouin could improve, beyond changing certain things in his game, is by the team augmenting the talent level around him so that he's putting so much pressure on himself to produce not to mention that the spotlight and focus wouldn't be on him as much.

You do this by signing a Duchene.


I'm not one of these people, i've never said this and I generally think terms like "playoff beasts" or "playoff chokers" are ridiculous fan/media invented narratives that really hold no value.

For years, all I read on here was that Max Pacioretty was a "playoff choker"...yet here we are with the Knights eliminated and he's still 2nd in playoff scoring.

So, again, you'd be incorrect here.



I didn't completely ignore that...in fact, i've highlighted it SEVERAL times during each of our interactions.

So once again, you'd be incorrect here.

So by saying ALL of this, it's very obvious that Duchene is a much better player. If we were to "dump" Drouin and sign Duchene, it would not be a lateral move. So you are definitely incorrect.

 

[417]

So by saying ALL of this, it's very obvious that Duchene is a much better player.

We disagree on "much" better.

If we were to "dump" Drouin and sign Duchene, it would not be a lateral move. So you are definitely incorrect.

So you think this top 9

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Lehkonen-Kotkaniemi-Armia

is better then

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Lehkonen

That's what you're trying to tell me?

You think the first group is an upgrade on the 2nd group?

 

[G0bias]

You're missing the point...

You don't just dump Drouin and replace him with Duchene and think you've upgraded your team.

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense.

If you trade Drouin and get a comparative player either up front or on D AND add Duchene...then yes, you can argue you've upgraded your team.

Nah I got the point just fine.
I guess it depends on one's interpretation of the term dump, as one's definition could be entirely different than someone else's.
Regardless, I was pointing out how saying Drouin was a productive member of the top 6 simply based on his raw point total is flawed.

The way I see it, with Duchene coming in, KK taking some steps plus incoming talent like Suzuki, Julien will eventually give those players a share of the cushy minutes Drouin is getting now without any competition to fight for it, as long as he keeps being listless for large portions of the season.

With him already 8th in ESP/60 among forwards this year despite heavy offensive deployment and long stretches with Domi, if he's pushed down just by a little and some of his offensive deployments plus PP minutes given to more deserving or better suited players, that raw point total (that may seem decent on the surface) will fall off a cliff.

 

[The Great Weal]

We disagree on "much" better.


So you think this top 9

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Lehkonen-Kotkaniemi-Armia

is better then

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Lehkonen

That's what you're trying to tell me?

You think the first group is an upgrade on the 2nd group?

I literally just gave a bunch of points on how Duchene is better and they were all correct. Duchene is a much better player than Drouin, no questions asked. No offense, but you have to be blind not to see the difference between these two. Give me Duchene over Drouin every single time. My argument is about Duhene vs Drouin. And replacing Drouin with Duchene is definitely more than a lateral move.