GDT: Maple Leafs @ Devils - 7:00 PM - MSG

[OmNomNom]

i like the rage, but kind of hate the reaction. passion is great, but i hope THAT is what it takes to throw trash on ice -- nothing less. this should be a 1-and-done type of situation

 

[Devils731]

A nice comparative tweet. How are fans or players ever supposed to understand what contact is or isn’t allowed?

 

[NjdevilfanJim]

"A reasonable effort to avoid." That means trying getting out of the way, simply not initiating contact is called incidental.

I don't think with Murray it's that clear cut especially when he ripped the posts out to stop play....I think he sensed he was on his own and did everything he could to skirt the rules....Kudos to him it worked but nothing in that game is cut and dry from 3 overturned yo multiple non calls....In the end we lost next game up LGD'S

 

[Better Call Sal]

You can be passionate and emotional without resorting to throwing shit. They’re not mutually exclusive.

 

[minibrodeur]

Incidental means it's a goal when outside the crease. The league after the game said it was not incidental and should have called a penalty.

No it's doesn't, as mentioned in the comment you quoted "Incidental contact with a goalkeeper will be permitted, and resulting goals allowed, when such contact is initiated outside of the goal crease, provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact." So if it's incidental and the player made reasonable effort to avoid contact it's a good goal. If it's incidental and the player did not make an effort to avoid contact the goal is disallowed and there's no penalty.

 

[Blender]

No it's doesn't, as mentioned in the comment you quoted "Incidental contact with a goalkeeper will be permitted, and resulting goals allowed, when such contact is initiated outside of the goal crease, provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact." So if it's incidental and the player made reasonable effort to avoid contact it's a good goal. If it's incidental and the player did not make an effort to avoid contact the goal is disallowed and there's no penalty.

Not skating into the goalie is a reasonable effort. Reasonable does not mean perfect effort, it does not mean does everything possible to avoid contact, it means doing what a typical player would do in that situation. Tatar did not seek out contact, he skated through space Murray wasn't in to avoid him and even pulled to the right when Murray bumped him to try and minimize it. Murray initiated contact in that situation.

 

[Devils731]

Not skating into the goalie is a reasonable effort. Reasonable does not mean perfect effort, it does not mean does everything possible to avoid contact, it means doing what a typical player would do in that situation. Tatar did not seek out contact, he skated through space Murray wasn't in to avoid him and even pulled to the right when Murray bumped him to try and minimize it. Murray initiated contact in that situation.

I agree with this interpretation.

Tatar is allowed his own space on the ice outside of the crease. The goalie doesn’t get 5 feet of space that players aren’t allowed to entered just in case the goalie wants to skate into that space.

Tatar skated to where the goalie wasn’t to avoid him, the goalie moves into Tatar, and that’s incidental.

We have the clip above where a Colorado
player effectively slew foots Blackwood and that was deemed incidental. The Tatar contact was significantly more incidental than that play.

 

[minibrodeur]

Not skating into the goalie is a reasonable effort. Reasonable does not mean perfect effort, it does not mean does everything possible to avoid contact, it means doing what a typical player would do in that situation. Tatar did not seek out contact, he skated through space Murray wasn't in to avoid him and even pulled to the right when Murray bumped him to try and minimize it. Murray initiated contact in that situation.

Two guys step onto a busy road, a car takes a turn and is about to hit them. The 1st guy tries to jump out of the way, although he's still clipped by the car. The second guy just keeps walking and gets hit dead on. There's a difference between the two.

 

[Devs3cups]

Still, the tone of the Devils locker room was surprisingly calm. No one slammed their helmet or gave a rowdy speech. Players simply followed their normal post game routine of patting each other on the back, undressing their pads and fielding questions before rushing to the showers.

“It was definitely frustrating,” said Nico Hischier. “But there’s nothing we can do. Refs make the calls and nothing’s going to change it. We’ve got to stick with it, and I think we did a good job with that.”

As he stood near his back-corner locker, defenseman Brendan Smith gave insight into Ruff’s postgame words to the team. Smith said Ruff didn’t talk extensively about the controversial calls, instead lecturing them about better first period play and their finishing abilities.

“We haven’t gone through that yet – we probably will tomorrow,” Smith said. “We’ve got to make sure we keep getting better.

“That’s tough, but we need to have a better first. We’re going to have to work on that and get better… But it’s not a big deal to us. We’re looking at the end picture.”

My savior! Thanks a lot!

 

[Devils731]

Two guys step onto a busy road, a car takes a turn and is about to hit them. The 1st guy tries to jump out of the way, although he's still clipped by the car. The second guy just keeps walking and gets hit dead on. There's a difference between the two.

It’s a tortured metaphor but in both cases it’s the cars fault, not the responsibility of the people to jump out of the way better. The people both acted reasonably even though differently.

So I agree with the metaphor but not with your interpretation, the goalie is at fault for the contact, the player reasonably attempted to avoid contact, and therefore good goal.

 

[minibrodeur]

It’s a tortured metaphor but in both cases it’s the cars fault, not the responsibility of the people to jump out of the way better. The people both acted reasonably even though differently.

So I agree with the metaphor but not with your interpretation, the goalie is at fault for the contact, the player reasonably attempted to avoid contact, and therefore good goal.

I'll agree the metaphor was a stretch, but in any case it's Tatars responsibility to get out of the way, not the goalies and this is why it was disallowed. I was simply using the metaphor as a means of describing: attempting to get out of the way and not initiating contact are not the same.

Edit: The rulebook states the attacking player (Tatar) is the one who has to make reasonable effort to avoid contact.

 

[devilsblood]

Not skating into the goalie is a reasonable effort. Reasonable does not mean perfect effort, it does not mean does everything possible to avoid contact, it means doing what a typical player would do in that situation. Tatar did not seek out contact, he skated through space Murray wasn't in to avoid him and even pulled to the right when Murray bumped him to try and minimize it. Murray initiated contact in that situation.

I dunno about that. That sounds like no effort. And that is no effort in either direction. No effort to make contact, and no effort to avoid contact. Looks to me like Tatar could have done more.

But it does speak to the judgemental nature of the call.

 

[Blender]

I'll agree the metaphor was a stretch, but in any case it's Tatars responsibility to get out of the way, not the goalies and this is why it was disallowed. I was simply using the metaphor as a means of describing: attempting to get out of the way and not initiating contact are not the same.

No, it's his responsibility to make a reasonable effort to do so. You're applying a perfect standard when the language in the rules says reasonable.

What more could Tatar have done here with the speed he was moving? Thrown himself to the ice to the right?

 

[Whaddagoal]

You can be passionate and emotional without resorting to throwing shit. They’re not mutually exclusive.

I agree with the sentiment too.

However at the same time........

This small proprotion of fans that do this do draw attention in a very vocal and in an unforgettable way that the league cannot necessarily hide from. Outrage from fans on our side. Toronto side ("hey you trashy fans/state"), neutral fans ("toronto always get this their way", or "league is f***ing inconsistent"), local/regional media etc.... Alll draws some attention somewhat vying for a response.

"We see and call out very viscerally your bullshit, league".

(At least on 1 or maybe 2 of those goals)

Is basically the representative message from people who feel conned out of a live event experience they paid good money for (or may have). Booing does nothing to ellicit a response from the league.

We had two goals called by offsides already on ticky tac shit in previous gamss. And i i think already this seasoms we had to score 3 goals to get 1 (was it calgary or columbus game), similar feeling.

I didnt throw anything of course, but the gut feeling that you have been hosed, is there and this is a reflection of this through actions by a smaller percentage..

 

[Blender]

Like I said in the mainboard thread, no one should ever be throwing things on the ice. It happened because frustration boiled over and people lost it over the situation.

How long should fans be expected to tolerate the officiating in this league before the league actually decides to do something positive to fix it?

 

[TheUnseenHand]

I agree with the sentiment too.

However at the same time........

This small proprotion of fans that do this do draw attention in a very vocal and in an unforgettable way that the league cannot necessarily hide from. Outrage from fans on our side. Toronto side ("hey you trashy fans/state"), neutral fans ("toronto always get this their way", or "league is f***ing inconsistent"), local/regional media etc.... Alll draws some attention somewhat vying for a response.

"We see and call out very viscerally your bullshit, league".

(At least on 1 or maybe 2 of those goals)

Is basically the representative message from people who feel conned out of a live event experience they paid good money for (or may have). Booing does nothing to ellicit a response from the league.

We had two goals called by offsides already on ticky tac shit. And i i think already this seasoms we had to score 3 goals to get 1 (was it calgary or columbus game), similar feeling.

I didnt throw anything of course, but the gut feeling that you have been hosed, is there and this is a reflection of this through actions by a smaller percentage..

A response huh? Yeah, we will probably be fined a draft pick or something for violating the spirit of being a fan.

 

[Hisch13r]

Incredibly annoying loss. Also one of the most encouraging losses I think I’ve ever seen. Nothing discourages this team. They just keep pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing. All the way up until the faceoff with 7 seconds left I felt pretty good about their chances to tie it. Couldn’t do it but they did just about everything they could’ve

 

[Whaddagoal]

A response huh? Yeah, we will probably be fined a draft pick or something for violating the spirit of being a fan.

Sure the league will double/triple down on its BS, we all know.... but it cant hide from it.

With no fans no game, no payments to watch these guys play... Its nothing.

People want to watch a fair or consistently fair live event. If its a conjob then its really not worth the investment/experience (time, money, energy, enthusiasm)

 

[Cheddabombs]

I'm sure the league is working tirelessly to find a way to take back Dougie's goal as we speak

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Like I said in the mainboard thread, no one should ever be throwing things on the ice. It happened because frustration boiled over and people lost it over the situation.

How long should fans be expected to tolerate the officiating in this league before the league actually decides to do something positive to fix it?

It’s obviously dumb, but I really couldn’t give a shit. They should review the tape and ban whoever they see throwing stuff. The crying is a little much.

 

[Blender]

It’s obviously dumb, but I really couldn’t give a shit. They should review the tape and ban whoever they see throwing stuff. The crying is a little much.

Yes they should ban anyone who threw stuff, it shouldn't happen.

The league is also a joke and these situations are just going to get more and more common, and probably more egregious, if they don't do something to fix the serious problems with the league.

 

[glenwo2]

My savior! Thanks a lot!

Savior???

Didn't you just ask me not to copy and paste? I could've pasted the whole article if you wanted.

 

[Triumph]

The thing that didn't help the refs last night was that f***ing idiot who signaled good goal on the first one. What an absolute idiot. Was that Rooney?

 

[Devs3cups]

Savior???

Didn't you just ask me not to copy and paste? I could've pasted the whole article if you wanted.

Glen, you’re a ray of sunshine in these threads! Don’t take it personally!

 

[minibrodeur]

No, it's his responsibility to make a reasonable effort to do so. You're applying a perfect standard when the language in the rules says reasonable.

What more could Tatar have done here with the speed he was moving? Thrown himself to the ice to the right?

Tatar simply chose a skating path and stuck to it. It's not like he couldn't move, he had quick enough reactions to deflect the puck into the net within a split second. Moments before impact with Murray, he makes 0 effort to even move to the right. We can agree to disagree on the definition of reasonable effort but in the end, only the leagues interpretation counts.

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