Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[TruGr1t]

And this might well be the case.

And if it is, then the logical thing to do in a couple years will be the full rebuild everyone wants.

But right now, the only logical thing to be doing is basically what they're doing. Whether they do it well enough and can get a Panthers-type result remains to be seen.

The notion that you take this team, where it is, and blow it up for a rebuild is just nonsense and does not happen in pro sports. And the notion that you could do that and somehow retain your already unhappy superstar players is just pure pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

I think you and I have agreed in the past, that there are avenues to do this, but you need to be more aggressive than this management has been to date. I don't think you "blow it up", but for instance, I don't believe trading Miller would have been the death knell for this group's window like some other people, especially given the veteran talent that's subsequently been on the trade market due to the flat cap. In my eyes, you're basically ending up in the same situation in either scenario unless you actually improve this roster significantly, which hasn't nearly been achieved yet, and I'm doubtful they'll even achieve it before Pettersson has to make a decision.

That's basically that this management team is probably fired in 3-4 years, and another group is brought in actually to rebuild the franchise. Changing the course will require more drastic action than we've seen to date short of an unexpected prospect breakout or internal improvement in the next 18-24 months.

I understand your stance that essentially we better enjoy the next 3-4 years because other than that we're basically in for 20 years of straight shit (starting with Benning) when a rebuild commences.

 

[arttk]

I think you and I have agreed in the past, that there are avenues to do this, but you need to be more aggressive than this management has been to date. I don't think you "blow it up", but for instance, I don't believe trading Miller would have been the death knell for this group's window like some other people, especially given the veteran talent that's subsequently been on the trade market due to the flat cap. In my eyes, you're basically ending up in the same situation in either scenario unless you actually improve this roster significantly, which hasn't nearly been achieved yet, and I'm doubtful they'll even achieve it before Pettersson has to make a decision.

That's basically that this management team is probably fired in 3-4 years, and another group is brought in actually to rebuild the franchise. Changing the course will require more drastic action than we've seen to date short of an unexpected prospect breakout or internal improvement in the next 18-24 months.

I understand your stance that essentially we better enjoy the next 3-4 years because other than that we're basically in for 20 years of straight shit (starting with Benning) when a rebuild commences.

I don’t think a bunch of us are against trading Miller. We are against trading Miller for crap. If we can get like 2 1st rounder + something as it was reported at the TDL, a lot of us would be fine with it.
Trading Miller for like 28-31st, Lundkvist and Chytil is not the right deal to make.

 

[credulous]

the problem isn't really the trades they haven't made it's that they haven't been in position to make trades at all because of their cap structure and their refusal to address it. i think it's very plausible this team could have moved miller for "crap" and still ended up better because they could have had the cap room to do deals like marino, reilly, colton, newhook, hayes, provorov... if they'd traded miller

 

[strattonius]

Just give me a proper 3rd line center so we don't have Blueger or Aman playing 20 MPG when (because no one ever plays all 82) one of EP/Miller go down.

A petulant plea.

Who do you suggest? I want what you want too but 32 teams want this commodity as well.

 

[Peen]

A petulant plea.

Who do you suggest? I want what you want too but 32 teams want this commodity as well.

woof woof bark bark

 

[strattonius]

woof woof bark bark

No sir that's onomatopeia.

 

[arttk]

the problem isn't really the trades they haven't made it's that they haven't been in position to make trades at all because of their cap structure and their refusal to address it. i think it's very plausible this team could have moved miller for "crap" and still ended up better because they could have had the cap room to do deals like marino, reilly, colton, newhook, hayes, provorov... if they'd traded miller

congrats for listing a bunch of names just for the sake of listing names.

None of the names you mention are actual long term solution for 2C. And yes we could have traded Miller and use the 1st and maybe a 2nd to get Marino but it seems like Marino is just a 4th so on paper Hronek seems like the better trade. So if we spend a 1st and 2nd on Hronek, so we really need to spend another 1st and what we to get Povorov when we have bigger holes to fill?
Newhook, Hayes, Colton? Wtf.

 

[bossram]

congrats for listing a bunch of names just for the sake of listing names.

None of the names you mention are actual long term solution for 2C. And yes we could have traded Miller and use the 1st and maybe a 2nd to get Marino but it seems like Marino is just a 4th so on paper Hronek seems like the better trade. So if we spend a 1st and 2nd on Hronek, so we really need to spend another 1st and what we to get Povorov when we have bigger holes to fill?
Newhook, Hayes, Colton? Wtf.

Marino performed like an elite defensive defenseman last season. Prime Tanev-like.

 

[arttk]

Marino performed like an elite defensive defenseman last season. Prime Tanev-like.

Am I missing something here, his advance stats is like almost identical to his precious seasons.

I think you are still missing the point, listing a bunch of names really serves zero point.

 

[Hansen]

Marino performed like an elite defensive defenseman last season. Prime Tanev-like.

The rumours around Garland for Marino before his move sounded like they were too good to be true. Like Pittsburgh basically gave him away

 

[Hyzer]

Marino performed like an elite defensive defenseman last season. Prime Tanev-like.

Not to derail anything, but man.. prime Tanev was legitimately one of the best shut down and defensive defenseman this franchise ever had. Such a smart defenseman. We were way too spoiled taking him for granted.

 

[bossram]

Am I missing something here, his advance stats is like almost identical to his precious seasons.

I think you are still missing the point, listing a bunch of names really serves zero point.

My point was that your evaluation of Marino was wrong and that he was an elite defensive defenseman. I am one of the more pro-analytics people here, but this is really a place where you need to *gasp* watch the games. Marino is a huge defensive presence, and still posted positive shot/chance/xG metrics despite brutal usage. The Devils imploded midway through the season without him, and only improved down the stretch and into the playoffs when he returned.

I did not comment about anything else other than Marino.

The rumours around Garland for Marino before his move sounded like they were too good to be true. Like Pittsburgh basically gave him away

PIT's staff soured on him. I think it's for that reason that Allvin/Rutherford were largely uninterested, not that they couldn't meet the price.

Not to derail anything, but man.. prime Tanev was legitimately one of the best shut down and defensive defenseman this franchise ever had. Such a smart defenseman. We were way too spoiled taking him for granted.

If the Canucks wanted a retool + compete now RHD, Marino was the guy. Full stop. And locked in a $4.4M. Tanev redux.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The Benning era was the worst decade of management in the modern history of the NHL and the false equivalencies to the current management group - who look to be doing at least pretty average, competent things - continue to confuse me.

Agree.

Like half this board was convinced they were going to trade #11,

Trading the 11th for immediate help would have made sense and been in line with the massive extension to 30yr old Miller, 1st & 2nd magic bean for Hronek and OEL buyout where 75% of the total cap benefit we get takes place this up coming season.

sign Matt Dumba to a 6x6, and ruin every prospect they touch with terrible development because that's what they've grown used to ... but that isn't what we're dealing with anymore.

Strawman.

And as for the Magic Rebuild crowd where we walk our core players to UFA and waste their prime years with more losing seasons while accumulating magic beans and then somehow retain those already unhappy players, I don't even know what to say anymore. It's just pure fantasy, both in terms of the human element and the business element of running a pro sports team.

#videogamelogic ... sigh

We needed to cumulate assets and get younger. It would have taken balls by the management. They did do it sort of with Horvat. But we are so piss poor in every aspect of asset capital that doing it once does not move the needle in a meaningful way.

That boat has sailed. We will now see how your magic retool will fare. How long of a cup window will it give us.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I think you and I have agreed in the past, that there are avenues to do this, but you need to be more aggressive than this management has been to date. I don't think you "blow it up", but for instance, I don't believe trading Miller would have been the death knell for this group's window like some other people, especially given the veteran talent that's subsequently been on the trade market due to the flat cap. In my eyes, you're basically ending up in the same situation in either scenario unless you actually improve this roster significantly, which hasn't nearly been achieved yet, and I'm doubtful they'll even achieve it before Pettersson has to make a decision.

That's basically that this management team is probably fired in 3-4 years, and another group is brought in actually to rebuild the franchise. Changing the course will require more drastic action than we've seen to date short of an unexpected prospect breakout or internal improvement in the next 18-24 months.

I understand your stance that essentially we better enjoy the next 3-4 years because other than that we're basically in for 20 years of straight shit (starting with Benning) when a rebuild commences.

Absolutely all of this.

 

[TruGr1t]

I don’t think a bunch of us are against trading Miller. We are against trading Miller for crap. If we can get like 2 1st rounder + something as it was reported at the TDL, a lot of us would be fine with it.
Trading Miller for like 28-31st, Lundkvist and Chytil is not the right deal to make.

What is the saying … sometimes you need to lose trades to improve the team?

The fact is they’ve not found a way to materially improve the team while hurtling toward Pettersson’s contract after executing a historic buyout just so they can add more depth pieces. Oh, and they’re over the cap again.

Miller is just an example of a move that could have been made to seriously shake up the roster, but they refused to do it because they won’t even entertain the risk of “taking a step back.” Under the guise of keeping Pettersson/Hughes happy or something, which is funny since the team never improves.

So we remain on the mushy middle merry go round for another season, with a bunch of holes in the line-up, and probably on track for a full rebuild in 3 years anyways.

I’m not really a full rebuild guy, but do bloody something to stop this madness.

 

[Nazzlind]

What is the saying … sometimes you need to lose trades to improve the team?

The fact is they’ve not found a way to materially improve the team while hurtling toward Pettersson’s contract after executing a historic buyout just so they can add more depth pieces. Oh, and they’re over the cap again.

Miller is just an example of a move that could have been made to seriously shake up the roster, but they refused to do it because they won’t even entertain the risk of “taking a step back.” Under the guise of keeping Pettersson/Hughes happy or something, which is funny since the team never improves.

So we remain on the mushy middle merry go round for another season, with a bunch of holes in the line-up, and probably on track for a full rebuild in 3 years anyways.

I’m not really a full rebuild guy, but do bloody something to stop this madness.

Not sure what you mean by the bolded.

If you subbed out Lundqvist for Schneider, they probably would've taken the trade which would constitute as "taking a step back." So the issue for the Miller trade was more about no one meeting their price rather than not risking to take a step back.

 

[TruGr1t]

Not sure what you mean by the bolded.

If you subbed out Lundqvist for Schneider, they probably would've taken the trade which would constitute as "taking a step back." So the issue for the Miller trade was more about no one meeting their price rather than not risking to take a step back.

The issue with Miller is largely related to organizational salary allocation and the structure of his contract. The simple fact is they've had a few avenues to open up the cap space needed to actually materially remake the roster around Pettersson and Hughes, and have refused to do so.

If you are serious about improving the team, you cannot do it by consistently being over the cap.
In fact they've largely continued to add salary in a bid to make sure this team doesn't get worse, not make it better.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Not sure what you mean by the bolded.

If you subbed out Lundqvist for Schneider, they probably would've taken the trade which would constitute as "taking a step back." So the issue for the Miller trade was more about no one meeting their price rather than not risking to take a step back.

They just overplayed their hand when they were looking to move Miller.

 

[arttk]

What is the saying … sometimes you need to lose trades to improve the team?

The fact is they’ve not found a way to materially improve the team while hurtling toward Pettersson’s contract after executing a historic buyout just so they can add more depth pieces. Oh, and they’re over the cap again.

Miller is just an example of a move that could have been made to seriously shake up the roster, but they refused to do it because they won’t even entertain the risk of “taking a step back.” Under the guise of keeping Pettersson/Hughes happy or something, which is funny since the team never improves.

So we remain on the mushy middle merry go round for another season, with a bunch of holes in the line-up, and probably on track for a full rebuild in 3 years anyways.

I’m not really a full rebuild guy, but do bloody something to stop this madness.

The names you throw out that doesn’t actually help the team improve short term nor long term.

We made moves to seriously shake up the roster already. We changed 12 players on the active roster, including our captain, tell me how that the roster is not “shaken up” already.

I love how you guys are like we need to get as many draft picks as possible for the future and then proceed to assume every draft pick we have made will never make it and we’ll need to rebuild in 3 years.

 

[arttk]

My point was that your evaluation of Marino was wrong and that he was an elite defensive defenseman. I am one of the more pro-analytics people here, but this is really a place where you need to *gasp* watch the games. Marino is a huge defensive presence, and still posted positive shot/chance/xG metrics despite brutal usage. The Devils imploded midway through the season without him, and only improved down the stretch and into the playoffs when he returned.

No that was a genuine question, I don’t really watch the devils, don’t really have the time to do that.

From my understanding, Hronek is also one of the top performing D last season as well. So at the end of the day, we still filled a top4 spot.
i still don’t believe we have the asset to get Marino last season even if we traded for a 1st. We know you guys undervalue the shit out of Ty Smith. But I guess you just need to lower your IQ to Hextall’s level to understand how he could value or overvalue Smitih due to his pedigree and a late 1st we get from Miller would not have beat Smith.
The package from Miller was weak, so I don’t think you can look at that package and think for certain that there was enough there to help us land a top4 guy or a 2C.

 

[racerjoe]

My point was that your evaluation of Marino was wrong and that he was an elite defensive defenseman. I am one of the more pro-analytics people here, but this is really a place where you need to *gasp* watch the games. Marino is a huge defensive presence, and still posted positive shot/chance/xG metrics despite brutal usage. The Devils imploded midway through the season without him, and only improved down the stretch and into the playoffs when he returned.

I did not comment about anything else other than Marino.

PIT's staff soured on him. I think it's for that reason that Allvin/Rutherford were largely uninterested, not that they couldn't meet the price.

If the Canucks wanted a retool + compete now RHD, Marino was the guy. Full stop. And locked in a $4.4M. Tanev redux.

This first comment isn't meant for you.

How were they scared to shake up the team when they traded their captain?

I don't completely buy this. The cost would have been a 1st and a 3rd value wise, but PIT may have wanted a prospect like Ty Smith more. We didn't have a Ty Smith, or even a prospect of that value.

 

[TruGr1t]

The names you throw out that doesn’t actually help the team improve short term nor long term.

We made moves to seriously shake up the roster already. We changed 12 players on the active roster, including our captain, tell me how that the roster is not “shaken up” already.

I love how you guys are like we need to get as many draft picks as possible for the future and then proceed to assume every draft pick we have made will never make it and we’ll need to rebuild in 3 years.

When did I say anything about draft picks? I’m talking about salary space, roster flexibility and roster depth, of which we are alarmingly low in all areas. Some push from the farm wouldn’t hurt.

I would not say they’ve “seriously shaken up the roster”, they’ve moved around some depth pieces and were basically forced to buyout OEL as a last resort. We’re still capped out and we’re still at best a bubble team?

At least I guess they’re giving less poor contracts to depth players.

My tone will change if they actually move Myers before the season opener as rumoured and open up space for a 3C and one more winger.

 

[arttk]

When did I say anything about draft picks? I’m talking about salary space, roster flexibility and roster depth, of which we are alarmingly low in all areas. Some push from the farm wouldn’t hurt.

I would not say they’ve “seriously shaken up the roster”, they’ve moved around some depth pieces and were basically forced to buyout OEL as a last resort. We’re still capped out and we’re still at best a bubble team?

At least I guess they’re giving less poor contracts to depth players.

My tone will change if they actually move Myers before the season opener as rumoured and open up space for a 3C and one more winger.

I’ve already mapped out and shared our salary situation for the next couple of years multiple times on this thread.
We have no salary issues. We have 18M to spend next year even if we don’t somehow get rid of Garland and Boeser and earmark generous raises for Petey, Hronek and Kuzmenko and the only holes we need to fill with that 18M is another top4 and 3C and 2C if we can find one.

I am expecting them to change Myers so when that happens, they would’ve ended up changing 5/6D starting D, that’s the definition of a serious shakeup. Nevermind they changed basically both wings on the 1st line and essentially the entire bottom6. I don’t think they are done but we’ll see. It’s disingenuous to draw that line at Miller as the definition of didn’t seriously shakeup the lineup.

 

[TruGr1t]

I’ve already mapped out and shared our salary situation for the next couple of years multiple times on this thread.
We have no salary issues. We have 18M to spend next year even if we don’t somehow get rid of Garland and Boeser and earmark generous raises for Petey, Hronek and Kuzmenko and the only holes we need to fill with that 18M is another top4 and 3C and 2C if we can find one.

I am expecting them to change Myers so when that happens, they would’ve ended up changing 5/6D starting D, that’s the definition of a serious shakeup. Nevermind they changed basically both wings on the 1st line and essentially the entire bottom6. I don’t think they are done but we’ll see. It’s disingenuous to draw that line at Miller as the definition of didn’t seriously shakeup the lineup.

As I said, if they do move Myers it is more substantial, maybe enough, though I don't view $18M as a lot of space if you're basically forced to acquire those positions at market premium either via UFA or by taking on bad contracts to address those positions. You are obviously not trading any more futures to fill those positions, as you don't have any. It's still going to be extremely tight cap-wise for the foreseeable future, and the kicker is you probably don't have any impact ELCs for 3-4 years. You're basically trying to compete with your entire roster making max contract. And you're starting with a non-playoff team.

I know the story, they're going to try to make this work. It's an extreme long shot, and they haven't done enough to convince me it's remotely likely unless they get extremely lucky with internal development.

 

[Brookbank]

I really disliked Rutherford before he was ever rumored to be in the running for POHO/GM here. I have been pleasantly surprised with the conservative nature of the moves. But I think Alvin is really steering this ship.

He's not a natural public speaker or anything. But that's fine if he's got some hockey sense.