Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[rypper]

Yeah I’m sute they’re ecstatic being out of it with 35-45 games to go in the season AGAIN.

I’m mean they’re already half way to that rebuild as is….with selling Horvat. What else was there to chop? Garland? Lol Myers? Good luck

Being able to do the same with Miller would be a godsend right now.


I think arts future lineups are way more nonsensical. But I guess you’re grasping that life line too.

I wonder if you even read my post at all?

I said I didn't think they were happy with how the years gone. If they trade Horvat or make rebuild like moves in the off season as opposed to when they did, that sends a very different message to the players.

Again don't confuse what I think is realistic versus what me as a fan would want to do. I wanted the team to go a very different way but I understand as a fan... it's Fandom.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

When's the last time a 92 point team decided to do a tear down rebuild?

I know, doing the right thing for the long term health of a franchise is hard. That is why you see teams just floundering as a mediocre non-contender for years with no direction. It is not unique to Vancouver, but it is something that separates the good teams from the rest.

When management look at the roster in the summer of 2022, they know their blueline is bad, they even said so themselves. They have no prospects in the pipeline and no assets to make any meaningful improvements to it. But that "92 points" clouded their judgement (or more likely, the owner's judgement), so they take this fatally flawed team and "push ahead", all in the name of "who would do a tear down rebuild of a 92 pts team!?" Well, 8 months later we are bottom 5 in the league and arguably in a much worse position, all thanks to their lack of foresight and/or bad roster assessment. This makes the climb back up that much harder.

 

[me2]

When's the last time a 92 point team decided to do a tear down rebuild?

Hands up if you tried to drink last year's mirage.

 

[andora]

It is interesting that a while bavk it was dump anyone.. team stinks should be selling players. But now its about how hard it is to move players when someone suggeats it

They jettisoned a bunch of high priced players, got cap space to use for their rebuild, they used many obtained picks for trades, they have 8 drafted players on the ice and have cap space.
5 players 23 and under on the team, a winning team and 36 prospects under 23.
Canucks have;
3 players 23 and under
4 drafted players
29 prospects 23 and under

In the 2018 draft they took K'Andre Miller (D) and Kravtov in the 1rst round
2020 Schnieder (D) in the first round
2019 NYR traded for Fox and Trouba the same year solidifying their defence
But they needed the assets they aquired by tearinf the team down.

Who are all the other high price players?.. outside f stepan and Mcd.. i dont remember who else

 

[racerjoe]

Hands up if you tried to drink last year's mirage.

I think what was a mirage about last year was how they did it, not where the ended.

I like many had them as that bubble team most likely missing the playoffs. I didn't have them being this team that sucked than turned around and went on a long heater. I mean who had Petey being terrible at the start for that long?

 

[4Twenty]

I wonder if you even read my post at all?

I said I didn't think they were happy with how the years gone. If they trade Horvat or make rebuild like moves in the off season as opposed to when they did, that sends a very different message to the players.

Again don't confuse what I think is realistic versus what me as a fan would want to do. I wanted the team to go a very different way but I understand as a fan... it's Fandom.

Why does it have to be a message to the players? Why can’t they actually physically tell them “….hey we’ve got two upcoming UFA’s who will go a long way into allowing the organization to pay you and surrounding you with the cost effective and youthful talent we need to contend with you guys. We will negotiate with them but if the season hits the skids they’re getting sold”.

Players aren’t dumb. They likely realized Bo was gone the moment Miller’s extension was announced.

It’s all just so half assed. And I don’t think rebuilding around these players was an impossible sell. Selling them that this half assed retool is worth signing your career to seems much more difficult.


The rose coloured glasses that Bruce there it is created in some posters here continues to astound me.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I am not surprised, I present numbers and you present feels. You’ve already have a conclusion made up in your mind, and I am not even trying to convince you. I am just explaining how I see it based on the numbers I see.

Its okay buddy.

I promise not to press you on this anymore.

Edit.

I genuinely feel awful for making you try and write that...

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Why does it have to be a message to the players? Why can’t they actually physically tell them “….hey we’ve got two upcoming UFA’s who will go a long way into allowing the organization to pay you and surrounding you with the cost effective and youthful talent we need to contend with you guys. We will negotiate with them but if the season hits the skids they’re getting sold”.

Players aren’t dumb. They likely realized Bo was gone the moment Miller’s extension was announced.

It’s all just so half assed. And I don’t think rebuilding around these players was an impossible sell. Selling them that this half assed retool is worth signing your career to seems much more difficult.


The rose coloured glasses that Bruce there it is created in some posters here continues to astound me.

Why do I feel like we always have to "please" the players in this market? First it was "we can't walk into the room and tell the Sedins we are rebuilding", then now we have to send/not send a message to the players in the room? It has been long established that rebuilding/non-contending teams will trade their pending UFAs for picks/prospects/young players, why does it feel like only in Vancouver where we cannot do it without worrying about upsetting the room? Heck, even in LA where they have 3 stars/superstars (Kopitar/Doughty/Quick) and 2x Cup winners, and I don't think they had problem walking into that room and telling the team "hey we are taking a step back and trading Muzzin, Pearson, Toffoli, Martinez, etc." I don't get it.

 

[theguardianII]

I think what was a mirage about last year was how they did it, not where the ended.

I like many had them as that bubble team most likely missing the playoffs. I didn't have them being this team that sucked than turned around and went on a long heater. I mean who had Petey being terrible at the start for that long?

Bottom placed teams out of the playoff picture often face back up goalies, get an abnormal amount of PP's and look like giant beaters near the end of the season. This often skews fan anticipation for the next year. I mean how many times did/have they said "next year", "I think we are a playoff team" and "injuries hurt us badly" like that isn't something to plan for.

I posted in the bubble year that it was the shot, he threw all in, over the cap, traded away picks, the future, like giving candy out out kids and then went into shock and froze once the team failed he only had one more thing to do, make sure there was a poison pill for his successor so he would not look so bad.

 

[racerjoe]

Bottom placed teams out of the playoff picture often face back up goalies, get an abnormal amount of PP's and look like giant beaters near the end of the season. This often skews fan anticipation for the next year. I mean how many times did/have they said "next year", "I think we are a playoff team" and "injuries hurt us badly" like that isn't something to plan for.

I posted in the bubble year that it was the shot, he threw all in, over the cap, traded away picks, the future, like giving candy out out kids and then went into shock and froze once the team failed he only had one more thing to do, make sure there was a poison pill for his successor so he would not look so bad.

But this wasn't an end of season run, it was from December 6th.

Bubble year is totally different. So many circumstances that can't be replicated.

Again I thought the team would be one of the teams in the mix to get a playoff spot last year but coming up short. I don't think that was a bad prediction. I do think how the season went was weird, and not replicatable.

 

[VanJack]

So Tanner Pearson has finally landed on LTIR.....it begs the question, since they announced he was done for the season a month ago, why wait until now to place him on LTIR? And the NHLPA was investigating his treatment. What happened?

Just another Canuck injury controversy. Travis Dermott took a mild bump in training camp and has missed half the season. He tried to come back, but is now shut down again. Concussion probably. But who knows? Then there's Tucker Poolman (remember him?) What is actually wrong with this guy?

Now Demko comes back from an undisclosed 'lower body injury' and has apparently re-aggravated it. There's a chance now he gets shut down for the rest of the season. Did they try to rush him back too soon?

Just another Canuck season on the player injury front. It's 'team turmoil' when it comes to reporting on injuries.

 

[arttk]

Its okay buddy.

I promise not to press you on this anymore.

Edit.

I genuinely feel awful for making you try and write that...

at the end of the day, we are all overly passionate about our team and I think this is the type of discussion we had on this board before Benning came around.

It's actually really weird for like 90% of this board to agree on one thing, which is Benning being dog shit and everything he does makes not sense and have that type of discussion for 8 years.

So Tanner Pearson has finally landed on LTIR.....it begs the question, since they announced he was done for the season a month ago, why wait until now to place him on LTIR? And the NHLPA was investigating his treatment. What happened?

Just another Canuck injury controversy. Travis Dermott took a mild bump in training camp and has missed half the season. He tried to come back, but is now shut down again. Concussion probably. But who knows? Then there's Tucker Poolman (remember him?) What is actually wrong with this guy?

Now Demko comes back from an undisclosed 'lower body injury' and has apparently re-aggravated it. There's a chance now he gets shut down for the rest of the season. Did they try to rush him back too soon?

Just another Canuck season on the player injury front. It's 'team turmoil' when it comes to reporting on injuries.

probably because nobody here really understand how LTIR really works and what's the best way to maximize LTIR.

 

[mriswith]

It was called that for suggesting the team trade Pettersson, Hughes etc. A complete tear down, even in the position the team is in, that's still completely unrealistic "video game nonsense. "

MS was literally calling it video games to want to trade the UFA aged guys, dump salary, and accept 1-2 down years running a lower cap roster while we build around Pettersson, Hughes and Demko.

Then 20 games later half the fanbase and media was calling for the same thing.

40 games later we traded Horvat for futures, the Miller contract was a mistake, we are apparently looking to dump all of the UFA guys sans Miller if possible, and are on track for two high picks in this draft.

We're basically doing exactly the plan that was called video games except the "accidentally fell ass backwards into it at the last moment" version.

The "only possible not video games plan" of competing immediately with no steps back has categorically failed this season.

Despite being the half assed version we're still extremely fortunate with how things have unfolded. The worst thing that could possibly have happened was a wild card or just outside the wild card finish, losing so hard forced their hand.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Didn't realize it was performance bonuses pushing his AAV higher, my bad. Fox aside, cap point still stands. Be we wouldn't be bringing Panarin to town even if he wanted to with our cap situation.

For sure, I agree. And there's not much I'd do differently than the Rangers. But all this just highlights the silliness of imagining there are a few rigid courses of action a team can follow with each having a high likelihood of a fairly specific outcome. Especially rebuilds as opposed to finish line sprints to contention ,as the former rely on probabilities and projecting 18-year-olds rather than, say, acquiring two or three established players.

 

[Orr4Norris]

Why do I feel like we always have to "please" the players in this market? First it was "we can't walk into the room and tell the Sedins we are rebuilding", then now we have to send/not send a message to the players in the room? It has been long established that rebuilding/non-contending teams will trade their pending UFAs for picks/prospects/young players, why does it feel like only in Vancouver where we cannot do it without worrying about upsetting the room? Heck, even in LA where they have 3 stars/superstars (Kopitar/Doughty/Quick) and 2x Cup winners, and I don't think they had problem walking into that room and telling the team "hey we are taking a step back and trading Muzzin, Pearson, Toffoli, Martinez, etc." I don't get it.

So. Much. This.

What have we heard about this group from management and coaches?

1. Unprofessional. Poor preparation. Not ready to start the game.
2. Poor practice habits.
3. River hockey.
4. Lack of conditioning (Tocchet recently)
5. Poor leadership group.
6. Back to grade school defensively.
7. Bruce saying in exasperation ‘I know I want to win’…perhaps the most damning really.

But yes, let’s continue to coddle this group. They have so much potential!

 

[mriswith]

Why do I feel like we always have to "please" the players in this market? First it was "we can't walk into the room and tell the Sedins we are rebuilding", then now we have to send/not send a message to the players in the room? It has been long established that rebuilding/non-contending teams will trade their pending UFAs for picks/prospects/young players, why does it feel like only in Vancouver where we cannot do it without worrying about upsetting the room? Heck, even in LA where they have 3 stars/superstars (Kopitar/Doughty/Quick) and 2x Cup winners, and I don't think they had problem walking into that room and telling the team "hey we are taking a step back and trading Muzzin, Pearson, Toffoli, Martinez, etc." I don't get it.

When posters do it it's almost always just a fan excuse for poor management and when our management has done it it's been an excuse to continue trying to compete and avoid rebuilding while blaming it on something other than Aqua's impatience.

 

[theguardianII]

But this wasn't an end of season run, it was from December 6th.

Bubble year is totally different. So many circumstances that can't be replicated.

Again I thought the team would be one of the teams in the mix to get a playoff spot last year but coming up short. I don't think that was a bad prediction. I do think how the season went was weird, and not replicatable.

Ya I know, but that was the best the team would be, after that is was a downhill slide.

The Canucks were so far out of it they got to have many teams play them "soft". Once they started getting close they started losing. Yes Demko's absence helped there BUT the goal scoring dropped way off so did the PP when other teams took them more seriously.

So. Much. This.

What have we heard about this group from management and coaches?

1. Unprofessional. Poor preparation. Not ready to start the game.
2. Poor practice habits.
3. River hockey.
4. Lack of conditioning (Tocchet recently)
5. Poor leadership group.
6. Back to grade school defensively.
7. Bruce saying in exasperation ‘I know I want to win’…perhaps the most damning really.

But yes, let’s continue to coddle this group. They have so much potential!

It's a tank from day one

 

[MS]

MS was literally calling it video games to want to trade the UFA aged guys, dump salary, and accept 1-2 down years running a lower cap roster while we build around Pettersson, Hughes and Demko.

Then 20 games later half the fanbase and media was calling for the same thing.

40 games later we traded Horvat for futures, the Miller contract was a mistake, we are apparently looking to dump all of the UFA guys sans Miller if possible, and are on track for two high picks in this draft.

We're basically doing exactly the plan that was called video games except the "accidentally fell ass backwards into it at the last moment" version.

The "only possible not video games plan" of competing immediately with no steps back has categorically failed this season.

Despite being the half assed version we're still extremely fortunate with how things have unfolded. The worst thing that could possibly have happened was a wild card or just outside the wild card finish, losing so hard forced their hand.

Dude, you were suggesting that the team run $20 million below the cap and tank for Bedard.

It remains an absolutely absurd video game suggestion to think that any team in the history of sports would have done that from the position that we were in.

 

[arttk]

MS was literally calling it video games to want to trade the UFA aged guys, dump salary, and accept 1-2 down years running a lower cap roster while we build around Pettersson, Hughes and Demko.

Then 20 games later half the fanbase and media was calling for the same thing.

40 games later we traded Horvat for futures, the Miller contract was a mistake, we are apparently looking to dump all of the UFA guys sans Miller if possible, and are on track for two high picks in this draft.

We're basically doing exactly the plan that was called video games except the "accidentally fell ass backwards into it at the last moment" version.

The "only possible not video games plan" of competing immediately with no steps back has categorically failed this season.

Despite being the half assed version we're still extremely fortunate with how things have unfolded. The worst thing that could possibly have happened was a wild card or just outside the wild card finish, losing so hard forced their hand.

This is so weird to me. Management had a plan coming into the season and when things trended downward, they pivoted and changed the plan for this season. That's kinda how everything works in the real world. You have a plan and it's not working, you change. There is fundamentally nothing wrong with that. And the bit about us being fortunate, there is nothing really fortunate about it. They are leaning hard into losing right now by shutting guys down, playing Silovs, getting players to practice instead of resting for game day and essentially broadcasting to everyone that, winning doesn't matter process does. If you paid attention to the interview with Waddell, Allvin were negotiating with teams for the highest pick and he got it.

After all these years of Benning executing a plan and double downing, triple downing regardless how the season is doing, like I am genuinely surprised that posters are like dunking on this management group for pivoting. If they go into next season and the season after where their initial plan fails and they have to pivot again, then that's when we should really be hammering them because like how can you make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[4Twenty]

Dude, you were suggesting that the team run $20 million below the cap and tank for Bedard.

It remains an absolutely absurd video game suggestion to think that any team in the history of sports would have done that from the position that we were in.

They’re tanking for him right now!!!!!!


You bought the Bruce bump like Gord Miller bought the bubble.

If they’re 6 months From tanking anyways maybe just maybe you made a bad read

 

[MS]

They’re tanking for him right now!!!!!!


You bought the Bruce bump like Gord Miller bought the bubble.

If they’re 6 months From tanking anyways maybe just maybe you made a bad read

Yes, because a series of events - mostly a shocking breakdown at the goaltending position - has dictated that that is the best approach for the rest of this season once it was lost.

If you think that a management group is going to go to an owner (any owner, not just this dumbass we have here) and say : You know how we built some momentum at the end of last year and finished pretty well with a young team and weren't that far away from making the playoffs? And how we managed to get our superstar player re-engaged after he looked totally lost for an entire year? Well, we aren't going to try and build off that at all! What we plan to do is blow everything up, run $20 million below the salary cap, lose as many games as possible, cost you $millions, reverse the positive steps we just made in terms of fan and player engagement, and maybe hit it lucky on a 5% chance of landing the #1 overall pick!

... you have no clue. It's absurd. It isn't how sports works. It isn't how real life works. Just because you think that that's the quickest way to build a contender in a video game doesn't mean that that was any sort of real possibility in a real world dealing with real money and real people.

 

[Javaman]

Did you miss the part of getting rid of Myers, Boeser, Garland and buying out OEL, burying Stillman and putting Pearson on LTIR?

As someone pointed out, you're making the word "IF" do an awful lot of heavy work.

 

[arttk]

As someone pointed out, you're making the word "IF" do an awful lot of heavy work.

My whole point of view is let's see what they do by the end of this coming offseason.

Like there are a lot of things they need to do and I've always said i'll based on my opinion based on what they do and not based on some doomsday scenario around uninformed assumptions.

I have no clue what your opinion is but based on what you've said so far, I assume that you think this management group will try to hold on to Boeser, Myers, OEL and Garland?

 

[4Twenty]

I’m content with my read. $20m under is a bit high. But running under while rebuilding was fine.

Having to trade 2nds to get cap compliant and still end up in a tank is hilarious at this point.

Mole man seemed to view the Bruce bump as a mirage. Too bad he didn’t act like it.

 

[Canucker]

Yes, because a series of events - mostly a shocking breakdown at the goaltending position - has dictated that that is the best approach for the rest of this season once it was lost.

If you think that a management group is going to go to an owner (any owner, not just this dumbass we have here) and say : You know how we built some momentum at the end of last year and finished pretty well with a young team and weren't that far away from making the playoffs? And how we managed to get our superstar player re-engaged after he looked totally lost for an entire year? Well, we aren't going to try and build off that at all! What we plan to do is blow everything up, run $20 million below the salary cap, lose as many games as possible, cost you $millions, reverse the positive steps we just made in terms of fan and player engagement, and maybe hit it lucky on a 5% chance of landing the #1 overall pick!

... you have no clue. It's absurd. It isn't how sports works. It isn't how real life works. Just because you think that that's the quickest way to build a contender in a video game doesn't mean that that was any sort of real possibility in a real world dealing with real money and real people.

I know it would be unconventional for a team that did as well as it did as well as it did in the 2nd half to "blow it up"....but there were a lot of people around here who saw that this team was unsoundly built and really needed to be torn down, despite the turnaround under BB. It may not be popular, or in some ways realistic to blow things up completely...but taking a conscious "step back" this season was completely within the realm of possibility and really should have been the directive IMO.