Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

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This team gave #9 and #20 and got back #24. That #9 alone is worth more than all the late round surplus picks Benning acquired. They are down two 2nds, and now another in 2024.

When you factor in the lost opportunities we are massively short on picks. Ie Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, that's 3-4 1st + extras. And that's is just one year.

For a "rebuilding" team the Canucks are hugely short on picks, a significant difference making level short. It just highlights the Canucks never rebuilt.

That was after 2019.

The discussion was about what happened to this team post-2020. The traded picks in 2020 and 2021 weren't changing a thing about the 'shocking reset' and why the team went backward when they should have been continuing forward.

Why would we have traded any of Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli when we were sitting in a playoff position?

Absolutely, we were short on picks during the Benning tenure relative to what we 'should' have had with some better trade negotiation. But again, 5 extra picks probably mathematically turns into one extra middling player.
 
I know people are super traumatized and all; but just about every move I've seen from this management group outside of the Miller deal (Which I absolutely hate; I would have absolutely traded him for the speculated offers that were made public) has signaled like, 4 letter grades of competence higher than Benning at a minimum. Like it's not even close. There is no discussion to be had ever about it.
 
I know people are super traumatized and all; but just about every move I've seen from this management group outside of the Miller deal (Which I absolutely hate; I would have absolutely traded him for the speculated offers that were made public) has signaled like, 4 letter grades of competence higher than Benning at a minimum. Like it's not even close. There is no discussion to be had ever about it.
The Boeser deal?
 
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That was after 2019.

The discussion was about what happened to this team post-2020. The traded picks in 2020 and 2021 weren't changing a thing about the 'shocking reset' and why the team went backward when they should have been continuing forward.

Those picks could have brought in young assets, draft, trade or traded for more ready players. Failing to have them is the reason we're end up doing stupid stuff like OEL-Garland and doubling down on Boeser. Look at the farm, see nothing. Look around, see everything as too expensive for the Canucks available assets. Take high risk gambles, fail, repeat.


Why would we have traded any of Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli when we were sitting in a playoff position?

Because they were a mediocre fringe playoff team which would become a bad team when Tanev, Markstrom and Toffoli left.

And guess what, whenTanev, Markstrom and Toffoli left they did become a bad team. A bad team without the pieces to fix it that trading those players could have made.

This is how the Canucks have been run for nearly a decade and why the prospect pool is empty. The team is in cap hell because the prospect pool is empty and will continue to take shortcuts.


Absolutely, we were short on picks during the Benning tenure relative to what we 'should' have had with some better trade negotiation. But again, 5 extra picks probably mathematically turns into one extra middling player.

Give me tradable assets and take shots at players like Romanov and Marino. Too much doubling down instead of moving on because they don't see futures
 
I know people are super traumatized and all; but just about every move I've seen from this management group outside of the Miller deal (Which I absolutely hate; I would have absolutely traded him for the speculated offers that were made public) has signaled like, 4 letter grades of competence higher than Benning at a minimum. Like it's not even close. There is no discussion to be had ever about it.
The Benning bar is irrelevant. They need to out perform other nhl front offices.
 
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mikheyev - pettersson - kuzmenko
miller - good piece - good piece
hoglander - ??? - podkolzin
who cares - who cares - who cares

hughes - good piece
??? - ???
oel - bear

demko
delia

when you say 3 good pieces that's what i see and that's not really any better than where we are right now. if horvat returns a good piece that's neutral because he's an outgoing good piece. this also assumes hoglander and podkolzin work out and aren't busts who can't play in the nhl or aren't shipped off for mediocre returns

i think you need at least 6 good pieces (filling in those ???) and probably more like 7 or 8 if you actually want to be a real contender
See this is a more fun convo isn’t it.

For 2nd line I think we need a 50ish point center that is good on the PK. We get that then you can have hog on that line and things should work.
For 3rd line like I think we need a good matchup center that is good on the Pk and once you get that then I think him and Pod could be a pair.

For the last piece, we need to get a 2nd paring anchor guy so we can use that paring for matchups and use the Hughes paring for offense. Once you have a solid anchor there then you can bump Bear or Dermott up.

Like the main pieces in place, you can just use remaining cap to either sign some fast wings that can defend , pk and chip in some offense.

So the goal is to have 3 centers that are defensively above average and can PK. That should lower the GA by a bit. You have a d paring for offense and a d paring for matchup and a 3rd paring that is somewhat neutral. Add in Demko in his previous form and we should be able to score more than we get scored on.

The end result is you’ll have like 3-4 close to or above PPG guys in Petey, Hughes, Kuz and Miller. At least 4 20 goal scorers in Petey, Kuz, Miller and Miki. Having your 2nd and 3rd line C and that matchup D be good at PK should take the PK to league average so essentially like 1G less a game. Demko being himself should reduce like 1-0.5 goals a game. The team should play a stingy ass 5on5 game and Petey is a 5on5 monster and let Miller do his thing on the PP.

Is it a contender? No but it should be good enough for the playoffs and technically it shouldn’t be that hard to assemble.
 
The Boeser deal?
A mistake, but one that's hard for me to judge objectively. Given the extenuating circumstances, and previously demonstrated play, there is a case to be made for betting on him as part of your core. I genuinely didn't expect him to struggle this much this season. As far as the price goes, it's subjective to his QO.

Boeser also never seemed to have the apparent return lined up that Miller did, which makes not trading Miller a bigger sin. Most importantly, Miller is literally a cancer to the team. He has been a problem of catastrophic proportions for the entire team this season. He is so much worse for us than Boeser is at his cap hit. Boeser is baggage we would rather be without; Miller is toxic waste that we could have been rid of already and have gotten a good return for besides at his peak value.

The way I see it; now that the team has Kuzmenko, and they have a good amount of data on both Boeser and Garland internally, they have options with that they want to do with those players. That is not *the* worst position to be in, but it is made worse by the market for wingers being the worst in ages and the cap lagging behind.

I wont deny that the situation we're in with Garland and Boeser contributing what they do at the cap hit they have isn't a shit situation, and I wont absolve management for being responsible for it in significant part at this point. But the Miller signing was the only real, true, "What a huge f***ing error" moment I've had with this group of Management so far, whereas with Benning I was guaranteed at least 3 per season.

The Benning bar is irrelevant. They need to out perform other nhl front offices.
I 100% agree, but I've seen some sentiment creeping out of the woodwork that this group is not much better, or arguably worse, which is just asinine and deleterious
 
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Is it a contender? No but it should be good enough for the playoffs and technically it shouldn’t be that hard to assemble.

mikheyev - pettersson - kuzmenko
miller - good piece - hoglander
??? - good piece - podkolzin
who cares - who cares - who cares

hughes - ???
good piece - bear
oel - dermott

is this your playoff hopeful? it still looks like a very bad team to me with an awful defense and no depth at forward

not to mention you're at like 25-30m (depending on whether you keep garland or not) to fill those five good piece + ??? spots
 
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I think this is where I'm at right now. I honestly think we need 3 top 4 dmen, or 2 #2's (as well as somehow minimizing the harm of OEL/Myers contracts) to be a contender. It's a tough task. I just don't see how we do that without trading away something of value. It would take some serious magic GM'ing to pull off 2-3 Forslings for nothing. (I'm still hoping we get Jake Livingstone and he turns out to be the real deal.)
Problem is even if by some miracles a Forsling is available and we have the assets to make that trade, we don't even have the cap space to fit him in. Forget about getting 2-3 top 4 D, we can't even fit in one.

All the retool crowd thinks "we just need a couple pieces and we'll be right there with the bubble teams, all we have to do is trade Boeser/Myers, trust me guys they have value!" Its debatable whether we can unload these contracts without taking significant cap back or retain, then we have to find those 2-3 very specific pieces, then we have to see if we make good trading partners, then we have to worry about the acquisition cost, then we have to see if we have cap space. Each of those steps are already low in probability, yet you need all these long shots to align just to get ONE piece, let alone the 2-3 very specific pieces. I honestly don't know how people think its possible.
 
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Those picks could have brought in young assets, draft, trade or traded for more ready players. Failing to have them is the reason we're end up doing stupid stuff like OEL-Garland and doubling down on Boeser. Look at the farm, see nothing. Look around, see everything as too expensive for the Canucks available assets. Take high risk gambles, fail, repeat.




Because they were a mediocre fringe playoff team which would become a bad team when Tanev, Markstrom and Toffoli left.

And guess what, whenTanev, Markstrom and Toffoli left they did become a bad team. A bad team without the pieces to fix it that trading those players could have made.

This is how the Canucks have been run for nearly a decade and why the prospect pool is empty. The team is in cap hell because the prospect pool is empty and will continue to take shortcuts.




Give me tradable assets and take shots at players like Romanov and Marino. Too much doubling down instead of moving on because they don't see futures
This is just monday morning quarterbacking nonsense. Like, "Dad, why didn't you just buy apple stock in 1990?"

For one, that year was built around the success of our young core. You don't intentionally undermine a young core that's coming together, that's how you psychologically ruin them. Having a young core on the precipice of making the playoffs for the first time in ages and then dumping everything that isn't nailed down to undermine them is so stupid that it transcends hockey and moves into capacity for logical thinking.

"But then we did get rid of them".

It was a terrible decision to do so, but it was a response to Covid which couldn't have been predicted (obviously). Luigi demanded full austerity after Covid (also reflected by letting go of like half of the non-hockey staff) which was despicable both morally and functionally, hence we gutted our team, betrayed the core, and they haven't looked right since.

But arguing that they should have made a catastrophically and unprecedentedly bad move just because a global pandemic led them to make some stupid moves later is either naive or disingenuous.
 
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mikheyev - pettersson - kuzmenko
miller - good piece - hoglander
??? - good piece - podkolzin
who cares - who cares - who cares

hughes - ???
good piece - bear
oel - dermott

is this your playoff hopeful? it still looks like a very bad team to me with an awful defense and no depth at forward
Everything hinges on Demko returning to Vezina level play. If he can be "bubble playoff Demko", I think we have a chance to be a wild card team. But those "good pieces" better be real good, or else even prime-Hasek can't help us.
 
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Everything hinges on Demko returning to Vezina level play. If he can be "bubble playoff Demko", I think we have a chance to be a wild card team. But those "good pieces" better be real good, or else even prime-Hasek can't help us.

okay but then you're just winnipeg except without pld, perfetti and chaz lucius and with the human cap penalty oel. seems like a bad idea to commit to that
 
People thinking we are 2-3 pieces away are just thinking like Bening did.

We are 3 pieces away only on defence. Those 3 pieces are: an entire first pair and a Tanev like partner for Hughes. That first pair needs to be able to play in all situations and match the top forwards. Hughes needs to do his thing away from top forwards.

We have no competent defeceman in the system because the previous regime could not draft one to save their job. Our farm is among the worst in the league despite missing the playoffs 8 times in the last 10 seasons. We are seeing the results of Benning's mediocre drafting. He had the worst record in the last 30 yers and all we got for it are: Petterson,Hughes,Demko and maybe Brock. The others showed some flashes or almost nothing untill now.

That being said the biggest culprit for this is the owner. He is the only constant here since Gillis was fired.
 
Yeah, this is the problem with these takes.

People have idealized like 3 or 4 situations that have happened over the past 30 years (Chicago, Pittsburgh, Colorado) where a tank went absolutely perfectly and now basically want to blow up anything that doesn't measure up to that standard.

Those situations are not the norm. Again, look at teams like Detroit and LA who did 'perfect' tanks of the sort that everyone here wants and at the end of that ... ended up with basically zero high-end offensive NHL talent.

Fans also in one breath are AMAZED! at how the Seattle team that they mocked mercilessly last year as being a total butcher job by their management is one of the best teams in the NHL a year later and in the next breath it's IMPOSSIBLE this team does anything but suck for the next 3 years.

Fans also claim that it's impossible to fix the D while ignoring the bluelines in places like NJ and Seattle and the level of player and how those bluelines were composed.
The purpose of a tank is to, while already old and near the bottom, at the end of a cores lifespan, bottom out and start building a new core. The draft is a good place to build a core, this is obvious. Elite, franchise players come from those first 10 picks in the draft, with more certainty at the top.

The Canucks have a core of elite players. You can say oh they didnt tank on purpose blah blah whatever, but they got the return from a tank nevertheless. A better than average return from a tank. Pettersson and Hughes (and Demko if he returns to form) are excellent players that you cannot bet on getting even from those first 5 picks in the draft. Ask NYR, the team who apparently did everything oh-so-perfectly in rebuilding, how that's gone for them. They are a good team - obviously; but that's even more evidence to the positive that not all good players, and especially not all good depth, come from the top of the draft.

The Vancouver Canucks, with their core assembled, will only become a good team contingent on coaching, development, and savvy management. Just like Carolina, just like Pittsburgh, just like Boston, and just like Tampa. All of these teams at the absolute apex of the league who have, evidently, not just f***ing blown it up and tanked as soon as their players were at "peak value".

Our team needs depth, and structure, and culture. In that regard, I would argue having good development, a good farm team, good coaching; are more important than the specific guy you pick in rounds 2-6. It's not realistic to just acquire and build a good team of players that are good. You have to make the team good, and make the players on the team good. This is how contenders become contenders and sustain success, and has never been more important than now in the cap era (which is what Seattle clearly understood).
 
me2 said:
Those picks could have brought in young assets, draft, trade or traded for more ready players. Failing to have them is the reason we're end up doing stupid stuff like OEL-Garland and doubling down on Boeser. Look at the farm, see nothing. Look around, see everything as too expensive for the Canucks available assets. Take high risk gambles, fail, repeat.

One of those picks was traded for JT Miller.

And Benning did exactly what you're saying - he constantly traded picks as currency for young players to try and build cheap depth. He just identified the totally wrong players.

And again, thinking that a few extra picks is going to magically erase depth issues in 2020 is pie in the sky. Again, maybe you get one extra player.

The problem in 2020 was 98% bad cap management, 2% bad picks management.

me2 said:
Because they were a mediocre fringe playoff team which would become a bad team when Tanev, Markstrom and Toffoli left.

And guess what, whenTanev, Markstrom and Toffoli left they did become a bad team. A bad team without the pieces to fix it that trading those players could have made.

This is how the Canucks have been run for nearly a decade and why the prospect pool is empty. The team is in cap hell because the prospect pool is empty and will continue to take shortcuts.

The notion that those players should have been traded at the 2020 deadline is absurd. Pure video game stuff.

No team in NHL history has ever behaved like that while sitting in a playoff position. It doesn't happen. It was never going to happen. It never will happen. I defended the hell out of Benning for this at the time, and I'll continue to do so.

The problem was that we didn't re-sign these players - again, due to terrible cap management as well as doing things like prioritizing a backup goalie over our #1 shutdown defender - not that we didn't get assets for them.

Like, I will absolutely guarantee you that Buffalo will not be trading their pending UFAs like Okposo and Anderson if they're in the playoff picture at the deadline.

me2 said:
Give me tradable assets and take shots at players like Romanov and Marino. Too much doubling down instead of moving on because they don't see futures

I'd love to get top-15 picks like the one traded for Romanov. Those have actual value. However, teams don't trade those picks.

We literally just did trade a pick for a player 'like Marino' in Ethan Bear (and yes, I know Marino is better). Everyone in the MOAR DRAFT PICKS freaked out about it because they don't want to use pick surpluses for currency. People want to use them to draft super exciting prospects.

The purpose of a tank is to, while already old and near the bottom, at the end of a cores lifespan, bottom out and start building a new core. The draft is a good place to build a core, this is obvious. Elite, franchise players come from those first 10 picks in the draft, with more certainty at the top.

The Canucks have a core of elite players. You can say oh they didnt tank on purpose blah blah whatever, but they got the return from a tank nevertheless. A better than average return from a tank. Pettersson and Hughes (and Demko if he returns to form) are excellent players that you cannot bet on getting even from those first 5 picks in the draft. Ask NYR, the team who apparently did everything oh-so-perfectly in rebuilding, how that's gone for them. They are a good team - obviously; but that's even more evidence to the positive that not all good players, and especially not all good depth, comes from the top of the draft.

The Vancouver Canucks, with their core assembled, will only become a good team contingent on coaching, development, and savvy management. Just like Carolina, just like Pittsburgh, just like Boston, and just like Tampa. All of these teams at the absolute apex of the league who have, evidently, not just f***ing blew it up and tanked as soon as their players were at "peak value".

Our team needs depth, and structure, and culture. In that regard, I would argue having good development, a good farm team, good coaching; are more important than the specific guy you pick in rounds 2-6. It's not realistic to just acquire and build a good team of players that are good. You have to make the team good, and make the players on the team good. This is how contenders become contenders and sustain success, and has never been more important than now in the cap era (which is what Seattle clearly understood).

Could not like this post more.
 
This is just monday morning quarterbacking nonsense. Like, "Dad, why didn't you just buy apple stock in 1990?"

For one, that year was built around the success of our young core. You don't intentionally undermine a young core that's coming together, that's how you psychologically ruin them. Having a young core on the precipice of making the playoffs for the first time in ages and then dumping everything that isn't nailed down to undermine them is so stupid that it transcends hockey and moves into capacity for logical thinking.

"But then we did get rid of them".

It was a terrible decision to do so, but it was a response to Covid which couldn't have been predicted (obviously). Luigi demanded full austerity after Covid (also reflected by letting go of like half of the non-hockey staff) which was despicable both morally and functionally, hence we gutted our team, betrayed the core, and they haven't looked right since.

But arguing that they should have made a catastrophically and unprecedentedly bad move just because a global pandemic led them to make some stupid moves later is either naive or disingenuous.

Agreed until you get into letting Benning off the hook.

What happened in 2020 was dead obvious well before COVID which is why I spent that entire season calling it Fake Stanley Cup 2020 - a year where the pinnacle would be making the playoffs before an inevitable step back due to poor cap management.

That happened because of the decision in 2018 to spend $6 million on Roussel and Beagle, not because of a pandemic.

And even after the pandemic, they inexplicably decided it was more important to spend $4.5 million on a backup goalie than their best defender.
 
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This is just monday morning quarterbacking nonsense. Like, "Dad, why didn't you just buy apple stock in 1990?"

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking when people lay it out in advance. We can argue over whether it would be player X or Y but you can't deny people have been calling for this level of planning for years. Every year we get management playing it by ear and finding themselves in pickle when opportunities arrive.

You will never be in a position to get player X if you continue to manoeuvre yourself out being able to do those kinds of moves. No plan to take advantage of those chances has meant we constantly miss them.

For one, that year was built around the success of our young core. You don't intentionally undermine a young core that's coming together, that's how you psychologically ruin them.

How does a young team watch Tanev, Markstrom and Toffoli walk as UFAs and feel they were not undermined on the ice and into the future?
 
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What really makes me find the "you can only win with your core young, in their prime, and cost controlled" takes so baffling is when the last decade was massively defined by the opposite.

It would have been simply impossible for Pittsburgh, Washington, and Tampa to win those 5 cups between them if they had followed through on the philosophy prescribed by this board. As it turns out, core guys like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Stamkos are good at hockey and good at winning, even when their age no longer starts with a 2. Good management realizes how irreplaceable and rare these players are and builds around them for as long as they can.

The cups of those teams in the 2010s are quite literally a result of retooling. Retooling is not some unspeakable, profane no-no word synonymous with "incompetence" just because a generational idiot in Jim Benning tried it.
 
Agreed until you get into letting Benning off the hook.

What happened in 2020 was dead obvious well before COVID which is why I spent that entire season calling it Fake Stanley Cup 2020 - a year where the pinnacle would be making the playoffs before an inevitable step back due to poor cap management.

That happened because of the decision in 2018 to spend $6 million on Roussel and Beagle, not because of a pandemic.

And even after the pandemic, they inexplicably decided it was more important to spend $4.5 million on a backup goalie than their best defender.
If memory serves correct, they could have kept Tanev + Toffoli simply by avoiding re-signing Virtanen (trade his rights or let him walk) and buying out Sutter’s last year, along with not trading for Schmidt. Losing Tanev and Toffoli was total incompetence that did not even require prior planning to avoid.
 
The Boeser deal?
Signing forwards, when the biggest problem is defense, is not a great idea. Even if some of those forward contracts are ok, they are playing the wrong spots.

If my house has caught fire, I try to find fire extinguishers, not more firewood.
 
If memory serves correct, they could have kept Tanev + Toffoli simply by avoiding re-signing Virtanen (trade his rights or let him walk) and buying out Sutter’s last year, along with not trading for Schmidt. Losing Tanev and Toffoli was total incompetence that did not even require prior planning to avoid.

The worst was the Holtby deal.

I can see where buyouts are tough to sign off on (and I also struggle to believe Benning would have bought out Sutter - who was playing 15 minutes/game as the team's #3C and who Benning gave another contract to after that one expired) and I can see where it's hard to sell a young high draft pick who had had a pretty good season in Virtanen. But somehow they came to the conclusion that the backup goalie was more important than their best defender.
 
What really makes me find the "you can only win with your core young, in their prime, and cost controlled" takes so baffling is when the last decade was massively defined by the opposite.

It would have been simply impossible for Pittsburgh, Washington, and Tampa to win those 5 cups between them if they had followed through on the philosophy prescribed by this board. As it turns out, core guys like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Stamkos are good at hockey and good at winning, even when their age no longer starts with a 2. Good management realizes how irreplaceable and rare these players are and builds around them for as long as they can.

The cups of those teams in the 2010s are quite literally a result of retooling. Retooling is not some unspeakable, profane no-no word synonymous with "incompetence" just because a generational idiot in Jim Benning tried it.
People will agree with your take here in one breath, and then in the very next breath argue about how we cannot afford to build properly and be patient while everything develops for fear of losing Pettersson.

People will talk about how the tank succeeded! Because we got Pettersson and Hughes! But then they will immediately argue in favour of extending all of our old, UFA aged players to contracts that will cripple the team while Pettersson and Hughes are still in their 20s, let alone 30s, in order to squeek out a few seasons of hopefully playoffs where the roster is too caplocked to achieve contention and we know this several seasons out.

The issue isn't Pettersson and Hughes, it's everything else.

It's the amount of time it will take to shed the garbage but without the patience to build accordingly to that timeline.

It's the lack of resources that we have to use as currency to facilitate these changes. If you could wave a magic wand and have OEL, Myers, Boeser, Pearson, Poolman and Garland all disappear for free then almost no one would be advocating a full rebuild despite our completely empty prospect pool.

Or if the roster didn't change one bit but you could wave a magic wand and we had an actual mid-tier prospect pool that afforded us the currency necessary to dump the losers on the roster and remake it or had strong enough performances on ELC's to counter the garbage like OEL, then almost no one would be advocating a full rebuild despite the terrible cap situation.
 
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