Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[PuckMunchkin]

I think we actually have capable people in charge (not counting Aqua obviously).

But they will now be fired after of this failed retool, and who knows what bozo we will get to do the actual work once this experiment is over.

i guess we just disagree on whether or not vancouver can afford (in the asset sense) to actually make meaningful changes to this roster. i look around the league and i don't see many quality players being moved "for free". you have to pay whether in cap space, good young players or draft picks. vancouver lacks in all of these

if you think the canucks have the assets to make substantial changes or that players like garland, boeser and myers have positive value then we just see value differently. fair enough

i think based on my valuation of what the canucks have though they are years away from putting together a competitive roster without a few miracles

One red paperclip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[me2]

I said 2 years from now

So 3 or 4 years of retooling?

 

[Nucker101]

Hearing him give 100 word answers without saying nothing? I’ll pass and just wait for the TLDR notes

 

[Diogenes92]

Heading towards another wasted 5 years while they fail at retooling and trying to cut corners with a core that simply isn't good enough.

It's so disappointing.

 

[Nucker101]

Hope someone else writes his pre-prepared speech this time.

We’re going to strive for mediocrity here and build that brick by brick.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Yeah, this is the problem with these takes.

People have idealized like 3 or 4 situations that have happened over the past 30 years (Chicago, Pittsburgh, Colorado) where a tank went absolutely perfectly and now basically want to blow up anything that doesn't measure up to that standard.

Those situations are not the norm. Again, look at teams like Detroit and LA who did 'perfect' tanks of the sort that everyone here wants and at the end of that ... ended up with basically zero high-end offensive NHL talent.

Fans also in one breath are AMAZED! at how the Seattle team that they mocked mercilessly last year as being a total butcher job by their management is one of the best teams in the NHL a year later and in the next breath it's IMPOSSIBLE this team does anything but suck for the next 3 years.

Fans also claim that it's impossible to fix the D while ignoring the bluelines in places like NJ and Seattle and the level of player and how those bluelines were composed.

Wait, is Raymond no longer a high-end offensive talent? They still have Larkin, Vrana, Bertuzzi on their NHL roster, and Kasper coming up. Not to mention Seider and Edvinsson, both should provide plenty of offense from the backend. Not to mention tons of cap space to sign high-end offensive talent if needed. As well as numerous other good prospects coming up.

Sure they still have holes, but they are in a much better situation than us, IMO.

LA has blown a couple high picks, but they still have Fiala who is pretty high end. He was acquire via a trade of pick and prospect so there is definitely value in having excess amount of those assets. Byfield might still be a high end talent, plus they have lots of valuable assets (such as RHD) that came from rebuilding. And while they are adding to their talent pool, they are already way ahead of us in NHL standing.

I'm not we are in a situation to criticize their rebuild when you look at our own situation here.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Yeah, this is the problem with these takes.

People have idealized like 3 or 4 situations that have happened over the past 30 years (Chicago, Pittsburgh, Colorado) where a tank went absolutely perfectly and now basically want to blow up anything that doesn't measure up to that standard.

Those situations are not the norm. Again, look at teams like Detroit and LA who did 'perfect' tanks of the sort that everyone here wants and at the end of that ... ended up with basically zero high-end offensive NHL talent.

Fans also in one breath are AMAZED! at how the Seattle team that they mocked mercilessly last year as being a total butcher job by their management is one of the best teams in the NHL a year later and in the next breath it's IMPOSSIBLE this team does anything but suck for the next 3 years.

Fans also claim that it's impossible to fix the D while ignoring the bluelines in places like NJ and Seattle and the level of player and how those bluelines were composed.

This is a very dishonest take...

The disagreement you have with the people who want to blow it up, is the severity of the mess the team is in.

Its not that the rebuild = Chi / Pitts / Col. Its that no other route leads there from where we are at. It might lead to where Detroit is at, and that team is far far easier to build in to a contender than the mess we are in.

Then again if getting to be a contender is not the goal, why even argue with the people who think that is the goal?

We’re going to strive for mediocrity here and build that brick by brick.

Today I decided to sign Kuzmenko yesterday.

 

[Diogenes92]

People who argue against a rebuild and support a retool clearly haven't been watching this team for the last 9 years. Or they're just lying to themselves to keep from going insane.

 

[Vector]

People who argue against a rebuild and support a retool clearly haven't been watching this team for the last 9 years. Or they're just lying to themselves to keep from going insane.

So I'm clear, does rebuild involve trading Pettersson and Hughes?

 

[rypper]

People who argue against a rebuild and support a retool clearly haven't been watching this team for the last 9 years. Or they're just lying to themselves to keep from going insane.

Or... and hear me out, realize that the team is never going to do that, and save their energy. The team is never going to do the rebuild many of us want it to.

So let's either bang our heads against the wall (like we have for the last 8 years) or try to work within the confines of what the team is clearly going to do

 

[PuckMunchkin]

So I'm clear, does rebuild involve trading Pettersson and Hughes?

Not directed at me...

...but I think we were on a knifes edge last TDL.
If we hit a home run trade with Miller and nail our contract / trade work during the summer, I think we could have sold a future to EP.

He is a smart guy. Im not sure he sees a future here now.


So right now... The retool is headed towards being forced to move him. It follows that so will a rebuild.

 

[arttk]

So 3 or 4 years of retooling?

Do I look like an old Swedish dude?

 

[Nucker101]

Or... and hear me out, realize that the team is never going to do that, and save their energy. The team is never going to do the rebuild many of us want it to.

So let's either bang our heads against the wall (like we have for the last 8 years) or try to work within the confines of what the team is clearly going to do

Trading your 30-40 goal 27 year old Center to kick start a short re-tool is certainly…something.

 

[Diogenes92]

So I'm clear, does rebuild involve trading Pettersson and Hughes?

Keep Pettersson as the figurehead and captain if he wants to stay and chooses to "buy-in".

Trade Hughes to NJ.

 

[me2]

We ran a pick surplus from the point Benning was hired through 2019. We probably should had a few more picks than that, but it wouldn't have moved the needle. Have another 5 extra picks and statistically you probably get one mid-level player out of that.

Player development was absolutely an issue and trading guys like McCann/Forsling and dumping Stecher definitely an issue.

This team gave #9 and #20 and got back #24. That #9 alone is worth more than all the late round surplus picks Benning acquired. They are down two 2nds, and now another in 2024.

When you factor in the lost opportunities we are massively short on picks. Ie Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, that's 3-4 1st + extras. And that's is just one year.

For a "rebuilding" team the Canucks are hugely short on picks, a significant difference making level short. It just highlights the Canucks never rebuilt.

 

[arttk]

i guess we just disagree on whether or not vancouver can afford (in the asset sense) to actually make meaningful changes to this roster. i look around the league and i don't see many quality players being moved "for free". you have to pay whether in cap space, good young players or draft picks. vancouver lacks in all of these

if you think the canucks have the assets to make substantial changes or that players like garland, boeser and myers have positive value then we just see value differently. fair enough

i think based on my valuation of what the canucks have though they are years away from putting together a competitive roster without a few miracles

Nichuskin was free, Forsling was free, Kuzmenko was free. There are ways to improve the roster via UFA, you *just* need good pro scouting.
If you can hit on one UFA then you can conserve your assets on one trade instead of 2-3.
Like I said, I think we are like 3 good pieces away, not elite pieces, but good pieces with the right profile to be a playoff team.

If you get one via Bo, one via UFA then we make some low cost gambles to get the last one or just spend the assets to get it.

 

[rypper]

Trading your 30-40 goal 27 year old Center to kick start a short re-tool is certainly…something.

It's the reality we're stuck in.

 

[Diogenes92]

Or... and hear me out, realize that the team is never going to do that, and save their energy. The team is never going to do the rebuild many of us want it to.

So let's either bang our heads against the wall (like we have for the last 8 years) or try to work within the confines of what the team is clearly going to do

Then I guess the only solution is to pressure Aquilini's into selling or changing their minds somehow.

As difficult as that would be, it would be easier than trying to win a cup through a retool.

 

[Nucker101]

It's the reality we're stuck in.

Not one that I'm going to bother coping with by convincing myself that this makes sense.

I will however sit back and laugh during these next 6 months if desperate re-tool on the fly moves are made.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

It's the reality we're stuck in.

It's back asswards which is why I find it hard to see a *logical* path where we actually follow-through with contending in the short future. Yes, I know I said logical.

 

[Hodgy]

We ran a pick surplus from the point Benning was hired through 2019. We probably should had a few more picks than that, but it wouldn't have moved the needle. Have another 5 extra picks and statistically you probably get one mid-level player out of that.

Player development was absolutely an issue and trading guys like McCann/Forsling and dumping Stecher definitely an issue.

You may be technically true on the bold statement, but it is misleading. First, quality of picks matters. Second, you have cut off the first and second round picks traded in the OEL deal. Overall, they are down picks in terms of overall quality even if they technically acquired more. Also, over that time, we were one of the worst teams in the NHL. And if it wasn't an "unintentional tank" but rather an intentional one then we would have accumulated many more picks and young prospects. So the baseline for picks during that time shouldn't be 7 multiplied by the number of years we are talking, but probably closer to 10-12 (or whatever number of picks you'd expect a rebuilding bottom five team to acquire) per year.

For clarity, I don't generally disagree with you on the "value" of picks or very young prospects, but as @credulous pointed out they can certainly be used as currency to acquire good players.

Didn't really know exactly where to put this, but how else is someone supposed to read into this tweet:



Gear was the contracts guy no? Or was he overridden on some?

I've said this a million times, and I said this when Gear was promoted to Assistant GM (because at that time Benning supporters were using this as a reason why our cap management / contracts would approve) but there is no way a guy like Gear who has been a career lawyer, outside of hockey operations, was going to start to make large hockey operations decisions (like the term or amount to offer a player). He was absolutely only going to work within the parameters provided by Benning and co.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Yeah, this is the problem with these takes.

People have idealized like 3 or 4 situations that have happened over the past 30 years (Chicago, Pittsburgh, Colorado) where a tank went absolutely perfectly and now basically want to blow up anything that doesn't measure up to that standard.

Those situations are not the norm. Again, look at teams like Detroit and LA who did 'perfect' tanks of the sort that everyone here wants and at the end of that ... ended up with basically zero high-end offensive NHL talent.

Fans also in one breath are AMAZED! at how the Seattle team that they mocked mercilessly last year as being a total butcher job by their management is one of the best teams in the NHL a year later and in the next breath it's IMPOSSIBLE this team does anything but suck for the next 3 years.

Fans also claim that it's impossible to fix the D while ignoring the bluelines in places like NJ and Seattle and the level of player and how those bluelines were composed.

That's all entirely possible, I guess it's just how much do you trust the management group to make it all happen?

 

[supercanuck]

i guess we just disagree on whether or not vancouver can afford (in the asset sense) to actually make meaningful changes to this roster. i look around the league and i don't see many quality players being moved "for free". you have to pay whether in cap space, good young players or draft picks. vancouver lacks in all of these

if you think the canucks have the assets to make substantial changes or that players like garland, boeser and myers have positive value then we just see value differently. fair enough

i think based on my valuation of what the canucks have though they are years away from putting together a competitive roster without a few miracles

I think this is where I'm at right now. I honestly think we need 3 top 4 dmen, or 2 #2's (as well as somehow minimizing the harm of OEL/Myers contracts) to be a contender. It's a tough task. I just don't see how we do that without trading away something of value. It would take some serious magic GM'ing to pull off 2-3 Forslings for nothing. (I'm still hoping we get Jake Livingstone and he turns out to be the real deal.)

 

[credulous]

Nichuskin was free, Forsling was free, Kuzmenko was free. There are ways to improve the roster via UFA, you *just* need good pro scouting.
If you can hit on one UFA then you can conserve your assets on one trade instead of 2-3.
Like I said, I think we are like 3 good pieces away, not elite pieces, but good pieces with the right profile to be a playoff team.

If you get one via Bo, one via UFA then we make some low cost gambles to get the last one or just spend the assets to get it.

mikheyev - pettersson - kuzmenko
miller - good piece - good piece
hoglander - ??? - podkolzin
who cares - who cares - who cares

hughes - good piece
??? - ???
oel - bear

demko
delia

when you say 3 good pieces that's what i see and that's not really any better than where we are right now. if horvat returns a good piece that's neutral because he's an outgoing good piece. this also assumes hoglander and podkolzin work out and aren't busts who can't play in the nhl or aren't shipped off for mediocre returns

i think you need at least 6 good pieces (filling in those ???) and probably more like 7 or 8 if you actually want to be a real contender

 

[Jay26]

Honestly, we really just need this Horvat trade to happen already because a Horvat trade represents the first step in the journey forward, the first leg of the road ahead, and fans need something like that to chew on. Right now we're in fan purgatory debating either hypothetical stuff or the same non-hypothetical stuff that we've been talking about already for a long time.

Rebuild or retool...whatever, let's just get whatever it is going already.