Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[credulous]

Wonder if there is a belief by management that some of our prospects (i.e. Willander) could challenge for a spot on the blue line out of camp... because I do not love the look of this Defence going into the new season.

willander won't even be in camp. he's going back to bu

 

[SillyRabbit]

What I don't understand is how you re-sign Myers at 3M and Fobort at 1.5M when Zadorov only wanted 5M?

90% of his salary is right there.

5M is a slight overpayment for Zadorov but so is 3M for Myers and 1.5 for Fobort.

 

[Duodenum]

What I don't understand is how you re-sign Myers at 3M and Fobort at 1.5M when Zadorov only wanted 5M?

90% of his salary is right there.

5M is a slight overpayment for Zadorov but so is 3M for Myers and 1.5 for Fobort.

Then you're missing a RD which are expensive. It's closer to 7-8M for Zadorov+RD and 2-3 million gets you a bottom pairing RD.

 

[Peter10]

As much as I like Zadorov, this is not a good contract Boston gave him. Same for the Lindholm one. Glad the Canucks walked away from these type of deals.

DeBrusk contract is meh but probably market value.

 

[F A N]

What I don't understand is how you re-sign Myers at 3M and Fobort at 1.5M when Zadorov only wanted 5M?

90% of his salary is right there.

5M is a slight overpayment for Zadorov but so is 3M for Myers and 1.5 for Fobort.

Same. We reportedly went up to $5M for Zadorov. So did we not match Boston's offer in term or did Zadorov wanted to see what was out here and we couldn't wait?

It can't be because of opportunity as some have reported. Lindholm (and possibly Lohrei) are ahead of him on the left side and he isn't going to get PP time over McAvoy. Here, he would have been guaranteed the 2nd pairing LD spot at that salary.

 

[Slapshot_11]

The d is gonna get murdered against fast, skilled teams

 

[arttk]

Same. We reportedly went up to $5M for Zadorov. So did we not match Boston's offer in term or did Zadorov wanted to see what was out here and we couldn't wait?

It can't be because of opportunity as some have reported. Lindholm (and possibly Lohrei) are ahead of him on the left side and he isn't going to get PP time over McAvoy. Here, he would have been guaranteed the 2nd pairing LD spot at that salary.

Most likely didn’t match the term.

 

[Spectrefire]

What I don't understand is how you re-sign Myers at 3M and Fobort at 1.5M when Zadorov only wanted 5M?

90% of his salary is right there.

5M is a slight overpayment for Zadorov but so is 3M for Myers and 1.5 for Fobort.

Paying a 4/5 defenceman 5m a year for 6 years is insane. It's crazy how we just got out of Mikheyev's overpriced deal, and everyone is foaming at the mouth to jump right into another one.

 

[Orr4Norris]

Most likely didn’t match the term.

This is the most confusing part for me. I would have had zero issues with term with him. He embodies everything GMs salivate over. He would always have been tradable if it didn’t work out (see Guddy)

Really disappointed if they didn’t sign him based on term.

 

[Hit the post]

This is the most confusing part for me. I would have had zero issues with term with him. He embodies everything GMs salivate over. He would always have been tradable if it didn’t work out (see Guddy)

Really disappointed if they didn’t sign him based on term.

JR did us a HUGE favor in that one. Jim Benning pulled a fast one on the old man. A rare great move by Jim Benning. Tanner Pearson also wasn't a bad player (the guy we got in return).

 

[Orr4Norris]

JR did us a HUGE favor in that one. Jim Benning pulled a fast one on the old man. A rare great move by Jim Benning. Tanner Pearson also wasn't a bad player (the guy we got in return).

Guddy has never had a hard time finding employment which is my point. It’s not like Pitts was his final stop. If JR had not stepped up that year, another GM would have.

 

[Hit the post]

Guddy has never had a hard time finding employment which is my point. It’s not like Pitts was his final stop. If JR had not stepped up that year, another GM would have.

Big guy & high draft pick (pedigree) always tends you buy you multiple chances in the league. He was always a third pairing defenseman (except when carried by someone else). You don't give such guys term (I'm talking about NoGoodBranSuck & not Z).

 

[Jack Burton]

Paying a 4/5 defenceman 5m a year for 6 years is insane. It's crazy how we just got out of Mikheyev's overpriced deal, and everyone is foaming at the mouth to jump right into another one.

It's not insane. It's market value.

The cap is unfrozen and the market is adjusting itself. As we sit here today the pay structure basically goes like this.....

9+ mill. for your true 1st line players and that #1 D-man
6+ mill. for your true 2nd line players and that #3 D-man
3+ mill. for your true 3rd line players and that # 5 D-man
$775.000+ for your true 4th line players and that # 7 D-man

So is Zadorov overpaid...no but he is at the very top of his pay grade for what he brings to the table.

You also need to keep in mind that those #'s are only going to go up moving forward, The Matthews & Nylander deals are already setting the market for top end forwards and our very own Norris Trophy winner Quinn Hughes (he could go back to back) & Makar will set the standard for top end D-men and as we all know when the superstars get paid, so does everybody else.

Draisaitl, Mcdavid, Hughes, Makar, Bedard and all the young studs coming off their EL contracts are going to get PAID over the next 1-3 seasons with probably a 90+ mill. cap. By 2026 you may as well add a extra 1 mill. to all those starting prices I listed above.

It was actually a pretty good UFA year to fill the middle of your roster & grab those 4/5 D-men and lock them in long term before prices go throw the roof.


Edit: re Mikheyev, I feel bad for the guy as that knee Injury really derailed his career here in Van. I hope he bounces back and I'm betting he will.

 

[arttk]

This is the most confusing part for me. I would have had zero issues with term with him. He embodies everything GMs salivate over. He would always have been tradable if it didn’t work out (see Guddy)

Really disappointed if they didn’t sign him based on term.

I think term is fine if we could get the Aav down. Not sure Zadorov wanted that.

 

[bossram]

What I don't understand is how you re-sign Myers at 3M and Fobort at 1.5M when Zadorov only wanted 5M?

90% of his salary is right there.

5M is a slight overpayment for Zadorov but so is 3M for Myers and 1.5 for Fobort.

Term, it exists too.

 

[bossram]

It's not insane. It's market value.

The cap is unfrozen and the market is adjusting itself. As we sit here today the pay structure basically goes like this.....

9+ mill. for your true 1st line players and that #1 D-man
6+ mill. for your true 2nd line players and that #3 D-man
3+ mill. for your true 3rd line players and that # 5 D-man
$775.000+ for your true 4th line players and that # 7 D-man

So is Zadorov overpaid...no but he is at the very top of his pay grade for what he brings to the table.

You also need to keep in mind that those #'s are only going to go up moving forward, The Matthews & Nylander deals are already setting the market for top end forwards and our very own Norris Trophy winner Quinn Hughes (he could go back to back) & Makar will set the standard for top end D-men and as we all know when the superstars get paid, so does everybody else.

Draisaitl, Mcdavid, Hughes, Makar, Bedard and all the young studs coming off their EL contracts are going to get PAID over the next 1-3 seasons with probably a 90+ mill. cap. By 2026 you may as well add a extra 1 mill. to all those starting prices I listed above.

It was actually a pretty good UFA year to fill the middle of your roster & grab those 4/5 D-men and lock them in long term before prices go throw the roof.


Edit: re Mikheyev, I feel bad for the guy as that knee Injury really derailed his career here in Van. I hope he bounces back and I'm betting he will.

Some points on the "cap unfrozen" and "cap hits are going up" points...

1. The cap is not guaranteed to go up. Economic/political/acts of god events can hamper that. A recession, pandemic, currency crisis, or political volatility might cause the "projected" cap increases to slow down significantly. Planning for the best and assuming away the worst is not shrewd.

2. Even assuming cap growth, you've kinda missed the point about salary inflation and who you want locked in at fixed costs. A growing cap means you really want to lock in star players now, not 5D and third liners. E.g., if the cap goes up 20%, a 1st line $10M player now becomes a $12M player. A $3M 5D becomes...a $3.6M player. You can pretty clearly see, in terms of absolute cap space (which is what matters for cap allocation), the cost increase is much higher for a top-of-the-lineup player. Thus, there is a much stronger incentive to pay more for high-end players now and lock in those costs, even if you end up paying depth players more down the line, because the cost savings calculation is more beneficial doing it this way.

Teams that paid a ton of money on middle-of-the-lineup players *cough Seattle cough* made colossal mistakes.

3. The cap going up is not some get-out-of-jail-free card. It's not a competitive advantage. It goes up the same for every team. Using cap space efficiently and having guys out-perform their contracts is still the formula for success. Vegas GM McCrimmon literally just said this at his July 1 presser, amid criticism he didn't pay up to retain some of his UFAs.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Term, it exists too.

Zadorov will be 35 when his six year deal ends at 5M AAV.

Myers will be 37 when his three year deal ends at 3M AAV.

 

[bossram]

Zadorov will be 35 when his six year deal ends at 5M AAV.

Myers will be 37 when his three year deal ends at 3M AAV.

I didn't like the term on Myers deal either. Should have held to two years. Bu it is also 60% of the AAV of Z. It's also buyout-able.

Retaining Z essentially prevents one of the forward signings. And I agree with Allvin's direction to allocate more of his assets and cap space toward the forward group.

 

[Jack Burton]

This is the most confusing part for me. I would have had zero issues with term with him. He embodies everything GMs salivate over. He would always have been tradable if it didn’t work out (see Guddy)

Really disappointed if they didn’t sign him based on term.

They were definitely gun shy about giving out term but I think I know why they were and sorta get it.

We're still in a cap pickle and will be for the foreseeable future. Management has to start making some tough decisions on the core of this team. Prices are going up for players and if we want to keep the current core together then we have to hand out raises to Boeser this year, Demko the next and then the big one for Hughes the year after that.

Also, what is really going on with Pettersson???? I can not shake the fact that his NMC dosen't kick in till July 2025 and who baked that into his contract? Was it management playing 4 D chess knowing they will be messing with the core or was it Pettersson who just wanted to shut the fan base up but is sill on the fence about staying in Vancouver and wanted the door left open?

Anyway, I am also really disappointed and think management dropped the ball on this one.

 

[Jack Burton]

delete

 

[Jack Burton]

Some points on the "cap unfrozen" and "cap hits are going up" points...

1. The cap is not guaranteed to go up. Economic/political/acts of god events can hamper that. A recession, pandemic, currency crisis, or political volatility might cause the "projected" cap increases to slow down significantly. Planning for the best and assuming away the worse is not shrewd.

2. Even assuming cap growth, you've kinda missed the point about salary inflation and who you want locked in at fixed costs. A growing cap means you really want to lock in star players now, not 5D and third liners. E.g., if the cap goes up 20%, a 1st line $10M player now becomes a $12M player. A $3M 5D becomes...a $3.6M player. You can pretty clearly see, in terms of absolute cap space (which is what matters for cap allocation), the cost increase is much higher for a top-of-the-lineup player. Thus, there is a much stronger incentive to pay more for high-end players now and lock in those costs, even if you end up paying depth players more down the line, because the cost savings calculation is more beneficial doing it this way.

Teams that paid a ton of money on middle-of-the-lineup players *cough Seattle cough* made colossal mistakes.

3. The cap going up is not some get-out-of-jail-free card. It's not a competitive advantage. It goes up the same for every team. Using cap space efficiently and having guys out-perform their contracts is still the formula for success. Vegas GM McCrimmon literally just said this at his July 1 presser, amid criticism he didn't pay up to retain some of his UFAs.

Thank you.

Agree about Seattle. Total wacked out contracts.

I didn't like the term on Myers deal either. Should have held to two years. Bu it is also 60% of the AAV of Z. It's also buyout-able.

Retaining Z essentially prevents one of the forward signings. And I agree with Allvin's direction to allocate more of his assets and cap space toward the forward group.

What's your thoughts on the Debrusk deal?

 

[F A N]

Retaining Z essentially prevents one of the forward signings. And I agree with Allvin's direction to allocate more of his assets and cap space toward the forward group.

But that wasn't the direction Allvin wanted to go? I assume that the priority was to re-sign Lindholm (or both Lindholm and Zadorov). When signing Lindholm wasn't possible the pivot was to re-sign Zadorov at up to $5M AAV (if the reports could be trusted). So it isn't like Allvin didn't want to re-sign Z at $5M AAV.

I actually think more resources need to be allocated to the defense. Right now, two of Soucy, Myers, Forbort, Desharnais, Juulsen/Friedman/former Abby Canuck need to play on our top 4. If one gets injured one from the group needs to step in/step up. This is definitely not the type of rebuilt blueline I want.

 

[TruGr1t]

But that wasn't the direction Allvin wanted to go? I assume that the priority was to re-sign Lindholm (or both Lindholm and Zadorov). When signing Lindholm wasn't possible the pivot was to re-sign Zadorov at up to $5M AAV (if the reports could be trusted). So it isn't like Allvin didn't want to re-sign Z at $5M AAV.

I actually think more resources need to be allocated to the defense. Right now, two of Soucy, Myers, Forbort, Desharnais, Juulsen/Friedman/former Abby Canuck need to play on our top 4. If one gets injured one from the group needs to step in/step up. This is definitely not the type of rebuilt blueline I want.

They offered Lindholm that reported 7xS7M contract early in the off-season, before anything else, so who knows what their plan was subsequent to that. It may have involved Zadorov, but I doubt it was at $5M AAV. There's no way of really knowing how they'd have allocated if Lindholm signed that deal. It certainly would have changed things with your marquee forward signing making effectively $3M more per season than DeBrusk.

 

[F A N]

They offered Lindholm that reported 7xS7M contract early in the off-season, before anything else, so who knows what their plan was subsequent to that. It may have involved Zadorov, but I doubt it was at $5M AAV. There's no way of really knowing how they'd have allocated if Lindholm signed that deal. It certainly would have changed things with your marquee forward signing making effectively $3M more per season than DeBrusk.

Well I do believe Lindholm was priority #1 besides re-signing Hronek. Had Lindholm signed, not sure what the plan would have been. But the team knew early that Lindholm wasn’t resigning. We did hear the Canucks attempting to sign Zadorov. That clearly was the subsequent plan or part of the first plan. Did they go up to $5M? No idea but I don’t think it changes what I was responding to which is that the Canucks didn’t purposely allocate cap space to forwards by not signing Z. We wanted to sign him.

 

[arttk]

Zadorov will be 35 when his six year deal ends at 5M AAV.

Myers will be 37 when his three year deal ends at 3M AAV.

It’s not like retaining Z means we can run a budget paring of Z - Juulsen, he’s not good enough to carry a pairing. Right now we have Myers, Forbot and VD for 6.5 total. Having Z would mean we have to find 2 RHD and it would’ve cost like 6-8M more to full those spots meaning retaining Z would cost us a total of like 11-13M to round out the D meaning no Sherwood, Heinen.