Management Thread Blurst of Times

[David71]

i give this mangement team at least 6-10 months to fix the roster before giving them the axe. this offseason will be one of the biggest tasks. A: deal with tocheet situation, either resign him or let him go. B: acquire centerman top 6 guys 2 to be excat. Oneffersheet if they get their own 3rd rounder back? from calgary i believe. C:tell petterson to train harder in the offseason.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Just struck me. How the f*** are we back here again...

Out of the playoffs. Nothing to look forward to in the draft and no reasonable way to be a contender any time soon.

When will they learn (Or will they learn) that taking short cuts just gets you here. Every. Single. Time.


I fully expect to see Quinn Hughes reunited with his brothers in New Jersey and Im not even that mad about it. I cannot reason my self in to thinking why he would stay:
- NJD will be closer to winning the cup
- Lower taxes
- Both will have cap space-o-plenty
- And the obvious. His bros.

 

[rypper]

Just struck me. How the f*** are we back here again...

Out of the playoffs. Nothing to look forward to in the draft and no reasonable way to be a contender any time soon.

When will they learn (Or will they learn) that taking short cuts just gets you here. Every. Single. Time.


I fully expect to see Quinn Hughes reunited with his brothers in New Jersey and Im not even that mad about it. I cannot reason my self in to thinking why he would stay:
- NJD will be closer to winning the cup
- Lower taxes
- Both will have cap space-o-plenty
- And the obvious. His bros.

Players have a crazy bond and allegiance to the team that took a chance on them and drafted them, made them captain, focused their whole team around them in a way that people who aren't players don't understand.

That and new jersey sucks versus Vancouver general day to day living wise. He off seasons in Michigan and I feel like his parents might live in Florida?

 

[Hodgy]

Either you're a manager or your'e a puppet.

Rutherford believes in the direction. I don't accept your frame that he is beholden to following the owner. There's enough experience and respect there that he can influence the owner, he just has chosen not to.

I agree partly with you. I’ve said it before, but I think that JR and Alvin absolutely do think that they can thread the needle and pull off the improbably of both competing in the present but also building for the future. And certainly Alvin, from a self interest perspective, needs to put up some winning seasons here if he ever wants to get employed in the NHL as a GM again; so he absolutely is aligned with ownership in not wanting to take a more long term approach.

But even if you ignore the above, I don’t think it really matters as I don’t think ownership will green light any sort of rebuild. And that’s the part I disagree with you on. I don’t think JR can “influence” the owner on this point, and when Linden tried, he was essentially fired.

 

[Hodgy]

Players have a crazy bond and allegiance to the team that took a chance on them and drafted them, made them captain, focused their whole team around them in a way that people who aren't players don't understand.

That and new jersey sucks versus Vancouver general day to day living wise. He off seasons in Michigan and I feel like his parents might live in Florida?

Let’s be honest, we have no idea what Quinn Hughes will do here. There are reasons to believe he will stay, and reasons to believe he will go to New Jersey. Absent Hughes confirming one way or another, it’s probably not worth discussing much.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Players have a crazy bond and allegiance to the team that took a chance on them and drafted them, made them captain, focused their whole team around them in a way that people who aren't players don't understand.

This isnt the management that drafted him.

And I think with the new generation of young players this isnt really a thing anymore.

That and new jersey sucks versus Vancouver general day to day living wise. He off seasons in Michigan and I feel like his parents might live in Florida?

He can live in New York.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Let’s be honest, we have no idea what Quinn Hughes will do here. There are reasons to believe he will stay, and reasons to believe he will go to New Jersey. Absent Hughes confirming one way or another, it’s probably not worth discussing much.

Its what is 100% defining what the team will do this summer and the next.

You can choose to not participate I guess, but this is the biggest thing happening to the team in the foreseeable future.

 

[rypper]

This isnt the management that drafted him.

And I think with the new generation of young players this isnt really a thing anymore.

He can live in New York.

It's still the same team. And they made him captain. I don't get it either but it's a thing.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It's still the same team. And they made him captain. I don't get it either but it's a thing.

Im not sure it is.

 

[rypper]

Im not sure it is.

About the only example I can think of otherwise is Matthew Tkachuk.

 

[Jack Tripper]

Just struck me. How the f*** are we back here again...

Out of the playoffs. Nothing to look forward to in the draft and no reasonable way to be a contender any time soon.

When will they learn (Or will they learn) that taking short cuts just gets you here. Every. Single. Time.

This season was the norm—last season was the exception. The Canucks have missed the playoffs in 8 of the last 10 years, with their only real accomplishments being a short-lived bubble run and a playoff series win against a Nashville team that ended up being one of the worst in the league this year.

That said, it’s not as bleak as some of the darker years. Hughes is locked in for two more seasons, and the defense has finally been rebuilt. But let’s be real: the team’s in serious trouble if Pettersson doesn’t bounce back to a true 1C level. Even a solid 2C season next year would be a step in the right direction but wouldn’t guarantee playoffs.

 

[HairyKneel]

^^^^ I disagree. I think the team is somewhere in between 23/24 and 24/25. People always say everything went right last season: Perhaps it did. Well everything went wrong this season. That puts them at about 100 points. They have cap flexibility and a kid grade pipeline.

I don't prescribe to the Chicken Little crowd andall their misery and doom and gloom.

 

[kanucks25]

I don't understand why the start of your time frame is so late, as it seems to me that the relevant time frame was the offseason of 2022.

Look at Ex-Canuck Brad Richardson: I told J.T. Miller he's too hard on Elias Pettersson

If it was apparent to Brad Richardson from spending 17 games with the team in the spring of 2022, the existence of the problem was there to be seen by the Canucks' management and coaching staff long before the Canucks traded Horvat-in fact, at a time when Bo hadn't had his big goal scoring year and, while I'm speculating here, he likely could have been signed for less than the Islanders eventually gave him.

This indicates that the Canucks took at least three gambles in the summer of 2022 and lost on two of them. One was gambling that the problems in the Miller-Pettersson relationship would be manageable, another that Horvat's value wouldn't increase during the 2022-2023 season. The third gamble, whether Miller's play would live up to his new contract, they probably won, given his outstanding play in 2023-2024.

One win out of three gambles turned out not to be good enough.

The post you are quoting is about a month old now and I've already forgotten what I've said but I will clarify regardless:

The reason for the timeline is that nobody, after the 23-24 season we had, was saying we need to trade Miller or Petey because the team was going to inevitably implode.

Perhaps some were saying so before last season, but not during or after it. Most assumed Petey's fall off a cliff was more a blip than a long-term concern, because his fall from top-10 player to ordinary depth player at a prime age is pretty much unprecedented across pro sports.

Just over a year ago it looked like we had two #1 centers, a #1 D-man and a #1 goalie. Nobody in their right mind at this point would have suggested blowing the team up or rebuilding or anything of the sort. To say you "saw this coming" after last season to me is completely disingenuous.

 

[tyhee]

The post you are quoting is about a month old now and I've forgotten what already happened I've said but I will clarify regardless:

The reason for the timeline is that nobody, after the 23-24 season we had, was saying we need to trade Miller or Petey because the team was going to inevitably implode.

Perhaps some were saying so before last season, but not during or after it. Most assumed Petey's fall off a cliff was more a blip than a long-term concern, because his fall from top-10 player to ordinary depth player at a prime age is pretty much unprecedented across pro sports.

Just over a year ago it looked like we had two #1 centers, a #1 D-man and a #1 goalie. Nobody in their rightful mind at this point would have suggested blowing the team up or rebuilding or anything of the sort. To say you "saw this coming" after last season to me is completely disingenuous.

Pretty clearly we had different interpretations of punchmunkin's post about things being the responsibility of management.

There are a couple of things that I'd like to mention, although I'm not sure we're really disagreeing about them.

1. A set of gambles by management that didn't go their way is management responsibility whether they made those gambles in 2022 or 2024. (More on this later.)

2. I agree with you that virtually no management group would have wanted to break up the core of the gang last summer, but my reasoning is different.

Most of us on this board weren't in a position last summer to know there was an ongoing serious rift between Miller and Petey, but then we aren't privy to all that goes on with the team nor is it our job to know and make decisions for the team based on that knowledge.

There were a few posts suggesting last summer that EP40 be traded based on his disappearance the last half of the 2023-24 season, which wasn't the first time we'd seen his play drop off. Probably most of us will remember the resulting debates about whether or not and to what extent his poor play was because of physical injury (the tendonitis he reported at the 2024 post-season media availability).

Still, it seems to me that even if the possibility of things falling apart was foreseen by Allvin, standing pat at center might have seemed the far better gamble.

There are moves that this group has made that seem to me far more open to criticism than hanging on to their centers in 2024. Those include, just keeping to the center position:

-not extending Horvat in the summer of 2022, before his goal scoring spree in 22-23 raised his value
-extending Miller instead of trading him when the return would have been highest
-extending EP40 at 8 x 11.6

Any of those might be defensible. Some will think management was right about one of them, some two of them, maybe even some will agree with all of them or none of them, but with all of them being open to reasonable debate, pretty clearly the result, which includes the success of 2023-24, the failure of 2024-2025 and the outlook for the future, is the responsibility of the management that made those decisions.

 

[iFan]

I’m not that impressed with this management group. They have inside access to the room, we as fans don’t. They would’ve know about Pettersson’s immaturity and lack of offseason training, that is not a player you commit 92 million to. They would’ve known about Miller and Pettersson not getting along. A lot of the issues and set backs we face is from poor management.

 

[I am toxic]

all of this could be cleared up with one question to Petey from responsible journalists:

Do the MRI's done on your knee show scarring of the tendon?

If so, then we know Petey trained super hard in summer of '22, was overplayed in the spring of '23 by this coach, trained super hard in summer of '23, developed tendonitis in Jan '24, was continued to be played without break through Feb '24 by this coach, was signed to a $90m+/8 year contract early Mar '24 by this management group, and continued to be played without break to mid May '24 by this coach. Causing all the scarring of the tendon, and permanently impairing his knee function, and permanently impacting his ability to train fully

If not, then Petey is the first person in the history of anywhere to play intense sports with tendonitis and not develop scar tissue, his lazy training that led to him improving his already great shot into a lethal one over one summer, led to him putting up a 100+ point season, and led to him pacing for a 100+ point season and conversation for the Selke before he got tendonitis, also led to him playing poorly a month before he signed his big payday

If I was the coach that overplayed him and wrecked his knee, I would certainly blame his training habits

And if I was management that let the coach wreck his knee, and then a month later signed the wrecked knee to a $90m+/8 year contract, I would certainly blame his training habits

I would

But no one else needs to

 

[HairyKneel]

all of this could be cleared up with one question to Petey from responsible journalists:

Do the MRI's done on your knee show scarring of the tendon?

If so, then we know Petey trained super hard in summer of '22, was overplayed in the spring of '23 by this coach, trained super hard in summer of '23, developed tendonitis in Jan '24, was continued to be played without break through Feb '24 by this coach, was signed to a $90m+/8 year contract early Mar '24 by this management group, and continued to be played without break to mid May '24 by this coach. Causing all the scarring of the tendon, and permanently impairing his knee function, and permanently impacting his ability to train fully

If not, then Petey is the first person in the history of anywhere to play intense sports with tendonitis and not develop scar tissue, his lazy training that led to him improving his already great shot into a lethal one over one summer, led to him putting up a 100+ point season, and led to him pacing for a 100+ point season and conversation for the Selke before he got tendonitis, also led to him playing poorly a month before he signed his big payday

If I was the coach that overplayed him and wrecked his knee, I would certainly blame his training habits

And if I was management that let the coach wreck his knee, and then a month later signed the wrecked knee to a $90m+/8 year contract, I would certainly blame his training habits

I would

But no one else needs to

We need you to sort it out for us brother.

2025/26 will sort out out who is right and who is wrong. I don't want to be right or wrong ut Id love to watch a hockey team consistently like the two I am currently watching in this years' playoffs. Dunking on the guardian is getting old.

This will be a curious 12-18 months for this team.

 

[F A N]

It's still the same team. And they made him captain. I don't get it either but it's a thing.

I think captaining a team to a Stanley Cup is pretty special. Plus there is legacy. Quinn is on track to be a HOFer so it might not matter to him as much but if he leaves the Canucks his jersey might not get retired (it still might like Bure's). I mean is Ray Bourque celebrated in Colorado? Not really. He's no Joe Sakic.

 

[arttk]

Either you're a manager or your'e a puppet.

That’s a dumb comment, people are hired to do a job. The job description here is always going to be, make the team good. Any candidate that does not agree with the promise of the job is not going to get the job.

Also all the people qualified for the job are most likely looking at it from a perspective of yeah I can make this happen and that’s why they take it. It’s just so f***ing stupid to say anyone that does what management wants is a puppet.

 

[F A N]

That’s a dumb comment, people are hired to do a job. The job description here is always going to be, make the team good. Any candidate that does not agree with the promise of the job is not going to get the job.

Also all the people qualified for the job are most likely looking at it from a perspective of yeah I can make this happen and that’s why they take it. It’s just so f***ing stupid to say anyone that does what management wants is a puppet.

And someone like Rutherford was in a position to dictate the terms with Aquilini essentially begging him to take the job.

This has kind of been discussed to death here with all that has has happened with the franchise over the years. There are people here who says they will quit if they somehow aren't allowed to run their department as they see fit. Good for them. But for others, there's always somebody's interest who you want to consider.

 

[Jack Burton]

Yep.



we’re still in a pickle

 

[Quinntessential]

Can we just let chatGPT run the team so we can avoid more decades of these management threads?

 

[Jack Burton]

Can we just let chatGPT run the team so we can avoid more decades of these management threads

If decades you’re after then Aqualinni can provid.

 

[Jack Burton]

edit

 

[Soups On]

all of this could be cleared up with one question to Petey from responsible journalists:

Do the MRI's done on your knee show scarring of the tendon?

If so, then we know Petey trained super hard in summer of '22, was overplayed in the spring of '23 by this coach, trained super hard in summer of '23, developed tendonitis in Jan '24, was continued to be played without break through Feb '24 by this coach, was signed to a $90m+/8 year contract early Mar '24 by this management group, and continued to be played without break to mid May '24 by this coach. Causing all the scarring of the tendon, and permanently impairing his knee function, and permanently impacting his ability to train fully

If not, then Petey is the first person in the history of anywhere to play intense sports with tendonitis and not develop scar tissue, his lazy training that led to him improving his already great shot into a lethal one over one summer, led to him putting up a 100+ point season, and led to him pacing for a 100+ point season and conversation for the Selke before he got tendonitis, also led to him playing poorly a month before he signed his big payday

If I was the coach that overplayed him and wrecked his knee, I would certainly blame his training habits

And if I was management that let the coach wreck his knee, and then a month later signed the wrecked knee to a $90m+/8 year contract, I would certainly blame his training habits

I would

But no one else needs to

Careful here - most athletes will fully recover in terms of pain and function if given a proper rehab protocol. I believe the current literature suggests that improvements in pain and function are NOT associated with imaging or structural changes within a tendon.

Yes he should have been shut down for a few weeks to calm shit down and build it back up - likely went from a mild case to a more severe case when he wasn't. But 3-4 months in the off season should've been enough time to really get the ball rolling and back to normal.

Impact of Patellar Tendinopathy on Player Performance in the National Basketball Association - PMC

The extent to which patellar tendinopathy affects National Basketball Association (NBA) athletes has not been thoroughly elucidated. To assess the impact patellar tendinopathy has on workload, player performance, and career longevity in NBA ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Clinical Improvements Are Not Explained by Changes in... : American Journal of Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation

basketball players (16–31 yrs, n = 29) with clinically diagnosed patellar tendinopathy were randomized to a 4-wk isometric or isotonic exercise program. The programs were designed to decrease patellar tendon pain. A baseline and 4-wk UTC scan was used to evaluate change in tendon structure...

journals.lww.com

As a reference - there's some more up to date stuff out there I believe but I don't have it off hand

Is it the athlete or is the rehab program? Is it physical or psychosocial? Is it management or the coach? Probably a bit of all the above. An aggravating patellar tendon can be really intimidating to fight through even though tendonitis is often a condition in which pain is often fought through, to a certain level

I'm expecting Petey to get back to at least 90+ points next season with a good off-season. This isn't an ACL or Patellar reconstruction. It's tendonitis.