Management Thread Blurst of Times

[I am toxic]

Careful here - most athletes will fully recover in terms of pain and function if given a proper rehab protocol. I believe the current literature suggests that improvements in pain and function are NOT associated with imaging or structural changes within a tendon.

Yes he should have been shut down for a few weeks to calm shit down and build it back up - likely went from a mild case to a more severe case when he wasn't. But 3-4 months in the off season should've been enough time to really get the ball rolling and back to normal.

Impact of Patellar Tendinopathy on Player Performance in the National Basketball Association - PMC

The extent to which patellar tendinopathy affects National Basketball Association (NBA) athletes has not been thoroughly elucidated. To assess the impact patellar tendinopathy has on workload, player performance, and career longevity in NBA ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Clinical Improvements Are Not Explained by Changes in... : American Journal of Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation

basketball players (16–31 yrs, n = 29) with clinically diagnosed patellar tendinopathy were randomized to a 4-wk isometric or isotonic exercise program. The programs were designed to decrease patellar tendon pain. A baseline and 4-wk UTC scan was used to evaluate change in tendon structure...

journals.lww.com

As a reference - there's some more up to date stuff out there I believe but I don't have it off hand

Is it the athlete or is the rehab program? Is it physical or psychosocial? Is it management or the coach? Probably a bit of all the above. An aggravating patellar tendon can be really intimidating to fight through even though tendonitis is often a condition in which pain is often fought through, to a certain level

I'm expecting Petey to get back to at least 90+ points next season with a good off-season. This isn't an ACL or Patellar reconstruction. It's tendonitis.

No

only inflammation responds to rice and rehab

continuing to play on an inflamed tendon leads to scarring and permanent impairment

this is no longer tendonitis , it is tendonosis or whatever various authorities like to call it

yes, if Petey had been rested and rehabbed when the tendonitis had surfaced in Jan '24, he could have recovered fully, and in a relatively short period of time

which is why the vid I posted of Toccs is so incredibly damning

 

[Soups On]

No

only inflammation responds to rice and rehab

continuing to play on an inflamed tendon leads to scarring and permanent impairment

this is no longer tendonitis , it is tendonosis or whatever various authorities like to call it

yes, if Petey had been rested and rehabbed when the tendonitis had surfaced in Jan '24, he could have recovered fully, and in a relatively short period of time

which is why the vid I posted of Toccs is so incredibly damning

This is not true at all. Acutely inflamed tendon's yes. But one that is in a different stage of healing is different. And honestly, we should be using tendinopathy as the terminology.

There's countless data and scientific literature backing this. If he was in a more degenerative state ie being overloaded beyond capacity leading it an inability to complete basic activites, then he would've 100% been shut down this season. Plenty of players of all skill levels can play with a tendinopathy in even more high patellar impact loading sports but it must be graded. Then there's the psychosocial aspect of loading something that was previously very irritable

Tenodesis is also managed by resting from high impact and surprise, active rehab with graded return to sport.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I’m not that impressed with this management group. They have inside access to the room, we as fans don’t. They would’ve know about Pettersson’s immaturity and lack of offseason training, that is not a player you commit 92 million to. They would’ve known about Miller and Pettersson not getting along. A lot of the issues and set backs we face is from poor management.

Thats why I dont believe he is "immature" or that he doesnt train during the summer.

That storyline makes no sense to me.

 

[I am toxic]

This is not true at all. Acutely inflamed tendon's yes. But one that is in a different stage of healing is different. And honestly, we should be using tendinopathy as the terminology.

There's countless data and scientific literature backing this. If he was in a more degenerative state ie being overloaded beyond capacity leading it an inability to complete basic activites, then he would've 100% been shut down this season. Plenty of players of all skill levels can play with a tendinopathy in even more high patellar impact loading sports but it must be graded. Then there's the psychosocial aspect of loading something that was previously very irritable

Tenodesis is also managed by resting from high impact and surprise, active rehab with graded return to sport.

Not a single one of the studies you posted showed an athlete with inflammation being continued to be played to the point scarring developed

None of them show debridement in such a case, all I saw were reattachments, a completely different condition

Or maybe I missed it. Feel free to quote any example in those studies of a player that developed inflammation, continued play to the point of scarring, and then had full recovery with or without debridement surgery

As to the Canucks shutting him down, Petey himself said it got worse through the spring of '24, and Toccs himself said they knew it was tendonitis and decided to keep playing him

All of the evidence points to a player who has always trained hard enough to put up greater than 100 point seasons when healthy, who is now permanently impaired to the point they are still icing the knee a year later, and an org that doesn't shut down injured players properly and will deflect blame and throw others under the bus

So I would appreciate a quote on someone recovering as I described above, and I will happily admit I was wrong when Petey returns to being a 100+ point player

 

[iFan]

Thats why I dont believe he is "immature" or that he doesnt train during the summer.

That storyline makes no sense to me.

I mean his frame is showing a lack of training, he can build lower body strength. I do believe he’s immature, ex players have talked about it, the Miller Pettersson thing, how he talks in the media. There’s a lot of evidence here.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I mean his frame is showing a lack of training, he can build lower body strength.

I think his body type is the kind that struggles putting on muscle with out PEDs.

I do believe he’s immature, ex players have talked about it, the Miller Pettersson thing, how he talks in the media. There’s a lot of evidence here.

Or he is shy and uncomfortable in front of the media.

 

[iFan]

I think his body type is the kind that struggles putting on muscle with out PEDs.

Or he is shy and uncomfortable in front of the media.

Or are we trying too hard to make excuses for a player being paid 11 million per season who put up 45pts. This is on Pettersson.

 

[arttk]

But for others, there's always somebody's interest who you want to consider.

seriously.. anyone who has worked under a boss should know that even if the boss gives you “unlimited” freedom, that doesn’t mean you can give you boss the finger when they suggest something to you and you should entertain some requests just so you get to have 99% of that freedom.

To be clear, I also don’t believe aquaman is playing GM and telling Allvin what he needs to do. He’s probably f***ing around with those lame DJ hires and playlists

 

[Soups On]

Not a single one of the studies you posted showed an athlete with inflammation being continued to be played to the point scarring developed

None of them show debridement in such a case, all I saw were reattachments, a completely different condition

Or maybe I missed it. Feel free to quote any example in those studies of a player that developed inflammation, continued play to the point of scarring, and then had full recovery with or without debridement surgery

As to the Canucks shutting him down, Petey himself said it got worse through the spring of '24, and Toccs himself said they knew it was tendonitis and decided to keep playing him

All of the evidence points to a player who has always trained hard enough to put up greater than 100 point seasons when healthy, who is now permanently impaired to the point they are still icing the knee a year later, and an org that doesn't shut down injured players properly and will deflect blame and throw others under the bus

So I would appreciate a quote on someone recovering as I described above, and I will happily admit I was wrong when Petey returns to being a 100+ point player

I'll pull out more literature in a bit - its a lot harder to find specific case studies with the exact parameters you suggest - no one is following an athlete with an MRI machine as they play day to day. In the meantime, I'll draw on my knowledge of the subject, clinical experience, and refer back to the articles I listed

From the NBA study, "The present study demonstrated that NBA athletes diagnosed with patellar tendinopathy reliably return to play in the NBA (100%). Players who were more likely to develop patellar tendinopathy, on average, started in 21 more games, played 798 more minutes per season and 35 more minutes per game, and had a 3-point higher PER compared with noninjured players. Patellar tendinopathy was not found to negatively affect career longevity, as players had longer careers and played more seasons after return from injury compared with healthy controls. After return from injury, players continued to experience high workloads and performance"

Tendinopathy is diagnosed primarily clinically without the need of an MRI. Often it's diagnosed after multiple bouts of play because it can also initially present as a mild irritation of the knee - like any small overuse. The onset is often insidious after a large change in load, thus it's often indicated that players or any athletes will play with levels of inflammation. This is based on the nature of the pathology and also drawn on my clinical experience.

The current literature with tendon pathology is leaning towards tendinopathy diagnosis because 1:1 relationships between scar tissue and function (and pain) in the long term aren't concrete. Inflammation can be transient in the case of a true tendonitis. With tendinosis there are structural changes However, this does not mean that the tendon is outwardly permanently damaged in terms of function. The current dogma looks at regenerative tendon states vs degenerative. So if a player continues to overload the tendon such that their activites of daily living continue to be impacted, performance continues to decline, and pain levels at rest as well as delay in improvements without increase, they would be shut down. If things were as you suggest, you'd never really see athletes playing with a patellar brace. On a side note - I'd be surprised if Petey wasn't getting regular PRP injections to try to keep playing last year.

The team f***ed up and thus the rehab process has now taken way too long. With the few snippets of information that's been leaked vaguely I can only infer so much - if he did not load his patellar tendon during to the off-season like he should have, he was set up for failure in the regular season. I do question a lot of the decisions by the Canucks medical staff.

Here's the review on how tendon imaging does not correlate to symptoms Tendinopathy: Is Imaging Telling Us the Entire Story? - PubMed

 

[I am toxic]

I'll pull out more literature in a bit - its a lot harder to find specific case studies with the exact parameters you suggest - no one is following an athlete with an MRI machine as they play day to day. In the meantime, I'll draw on my knowledge of the subject, clinical experience, and refer back to the articles I listed

From the NBA study, "The present study demonstrated that NBA athletes diagnosed with patellar tendinopathy reliably return to play in the NBA (100%). Players who were more likely to develop patellar tendinopathy, on average, started in 21 more games, played 798 more minutes per season and 35 more minutes per game, and had a 3-point higher PER compared with noninjured players. Patellar tendinopathy was not found to negatively affect career longevity, as players had longer careers and played more seasons after return from injury compared with healthy controls. After return from injury, players continued to experience high workloads and performance"

Tendinopathy is diagnosed primarily clinically without the need of an MRI. Often it's diagnosed after multiple bouts of play because it can also initially present as a mild irritation of the knee - like any small overuse. The onset is often insidious after a large change in load, thus it's often indicated that players or any athletes will play with levels of inflammation. This is based on the nature of the pathology and also drawn on my clinical experience.

The current literature with tendon pathology is leaning towards tendinopathy diagnosis because 1:1 relationships between scar tissue and function (and pain) in the long term aren't concrete. Inflammation can be transient in the case of a true tendonitis. With tendinosis there are structural changes However, this does not mean that the tendon is outwardly permanently damaged in terms of function. The current dogma looks at regenerative tendon states vs degenerative. So if a player continues to overload the tendon such that their activites of daily living continue to be impacted, performance continues to decline, and pain levels at rest as well as delay in improvements without increase, they would be shut down. If things were as you suggest, you'd never really see athletes playing with a patellar brace. On a side note - I'd be surprised if Petey wasn't getting regular PRP injections to try to keep playing last year.

The team f***ed up and thus the rehab process has now taken way too long. With the few snippets of information that's been leaked vaguely I can only infer so much - if he did not load his patellar tendon during to the off-season like he should have, he was set up for failure in the regular season. I do question a lot of the decisions by the Canucks

I went through what you linked in detail

I can not find a single instance of a player diagnosed with tendonitis - inflammation - who kept playing for almost 4 months, developed tendonopathy - scarring - and was then rehabbed or had surgery

My understanding of the facts are as follows:

Petey was diagnosed with tendonitis in late Jan '24

Petey was continued to play without any break until mid May '24

During that time, the knee got worse

All medical medical literature on the subject claims that continuing the activity that gave rise to the inflammation for several weeks to a month or so will lead to scarring of the tendon

Scarring of the tendon results in permanent impairment with our current state of medicine

Beyond those facts, the only evidence that contradicts what I am seeing is Petey saying the knee is fine (he's clearly lying, his knee would not be getting iced if it was fine, he visibly can't push off fully on his right side, and there is tremendous pressure from management and coaching staff to deny the injury and its severity)

Coaching and management's claims that his training is at fault carry zero weight, Petey has always trained to be a top performer when healthy, and it was these same management and coaches' terrible decisions not to rest him in Feb '24 that have led to a $90m+ 8 year signing debacle and permanently wrecking one of his knees. They have every incentive to deflect and throw others under the bus, which is what the have done repeatedly in the past

No rehab is going to fix this, no surgery is going to bring his knee back to anything better than what we have seen for the past 13 months, and studies that talk about tendon re-attachments for players who were not played for months after diagnosis, and who do not have the scarring Petey has are not going to change any of it

The more I hear people argue otherwise, the more I see the emptiness of their arguments, and the worse I feel about it

 

[Soups On]

I went through what you linked in detail

I can not find a single instance of a player diagnosed with tendonitis - inflammation - who kept playing for almost 4 months, developed tendonopathy - scarring - and was then rehabbed or had surgery

My understanding of the facts are as follows:

Petey was diagnosed with tendonitis in late Jan '24

Petey was continued to play without any break until mid May '24

During that time, the knee got worse

All medical medical literature on the subject claims that continuing the activity that gave rise to the inflammation for several weeks to a month or so will lead to scarring of the tendon

Scarring of the tendon results in permanent impairment with our current state of medicine

Beyond those facts, the only evidence that contradicts what I am seeing is Petey saying the knee is fine (he's clearly lying, his knee would not be getting iced if it was fine, he visibly can't push off fully on his right side, and there is tremendous pressure from management and coaching staff to deny the injury and its severity)

Coaching and management's claims that his training is at fault carry zero weight, Petey has always trained to be a top performer when healthy, and it was these same management and coaches' terrible decisions not to rest him in Feb '24 that have led to a $90m+ 8 year signing debacle and permanently wrecking one of his knees. They have every incentive to deflect and throw others under the bus, which is what the have done repeatedly in the past

No rehab is going to fix this, no surgery is going to bring his knee back to anything better than what we have seen for the past 13 months, and studies that talk about tendon re-attachments for players who were not played for months after diagnosis, and who do not have the scarring Petey are not going to change any of it

The more I hear people argue otherwise, the more I see the emptiness of their arguments, and the worse I feel about it

That is not going to lead to permanent dysfunction as per the last article I linked.

The NBA article I shared showed how nearly all players returned to full play and function. I guarantee you players play with tendonitis all the time - if the load capacity stays within a measured range such that a player can continue to perform and manage symptoms without the tendon clearly degenerating, they'll play. Like I said above - probably a ton of PRP and other injections to ensure a player can continue to play.

Epidemiology of Patellar Tendinopathy in Athletes and the General Population: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis - PMC

Patellar tendinopathy (PT) mainly affects athletes who use the tendon for repeated energy storage and release activities. It can have a striking impact on athletes’ careers, although data on its real prevalence and incidence are sparse. Research ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Prevalence of around 16-17% in elite athletes - major flaw here is this doesn't consider hockey players or only hockey players. These players don't just immediately stop if they have a tendon pathology - there's graded rest/activity and in elite sports, id hazard it's managed with injections, consistent rehab, and reduced play time or intensity. These players play THROUGH it if they can, it's collective decision by the medical staff, coaches, and player to stop play.

I don't see how my arguments here are empty at all. You've made a ton of claims but haven't cited anything here so if you could share evidence for how players will never return to their previous elite levels or even evidence that Petey has intense scarring that cannot be repaired in terms of performance or function, I'd like to see that and contrast it to what I have shared.

Also - out of sheer curiosity, do you work in the medical or rehab world?

 

[rypper]

Or are we trying too hard to make excuses for a player being paid 11 million per season who put up 45pts. This is on Pettersson.

45 points will be a strange anomaly in his career when someone reviews his hockeydb page 10 years from now.

 

[I am toxic]

That is not going to lead to permanent dysfunction as per the last article I linked.

The NBA article I shared showed how nearly all players returned to full play and function. I guarantee you players play with tendonitis all the time - if the load capacity stays within a measured range such that a player can continue to perform and manage symptoms without the tendon clearly degenerating, they'll play. Like I said above - probably a ton of PRP and other injections to ensure a player can continue to play.

Epidemiology of Patellar Tendinopathy in Athletes and the General Population: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis - PMC

Patellar tendinopathy (PT) mainly affects athletes who use the tendon for repeated energy storage and release activities. It can have a striking impact on athletes’ careers, although data on its real prevalence and incidence are sparse. Research ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Prevalence of around 16-17% in elite athletes - major flaw here is this doesn't consider hockey players or only hockey players. These players don't just immediately stop if they have a tendon pathology - there's graded rest/activity and in elite sports, id hazard it's managed with injections, consistent rehab, and reduced play time or intensity. These players play THROUGH it if they can, it's collective decision by the medical staff, coaches, and player to stop play.

I don't see how my arguments here are empty at all. You've made a ton of claims but haven't cited anything here so if you could share evidence for how players will never return to their previous elite levels or even evidence that Petey has intense scarring that cannot be repaired in terms of performance or function, I'd like to see that and contrast it to what I have shared.

Also - out of sheer curiosity, do you work in the medical or rehab world?

That NBA study - when you look at each individual case in it, which is easy to do since it is so limited - simply does not apply to the fact pattern I have described

If my fact pattern is wrong, or if I missed something in the study, I would appreciate a correction of the facts presented, or a quote from the study relating to someone facing circumstances similar to Petey's

I am not the guy who fixes athletes with tendonitis. I am the guy who gave dozens of elite athletes tendonitis as a professional coach in a sport known for over-use injuries

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Or are we trying too hard to make excuses for a player being paid 11 million per season who put up 45pts. This is on Pettersson.

These are not excuses.

Im more interested in knowing and understanding what and why his decline is happening.

You and others feel the need to vent.

 

[F A N]

seriously.. anyone who has worked under a boss should know that even if the boss gives you “unlimited” freedom, that doesn’t mean you can give you boss the finger when they suggest something to you and you should entertain some requests just so you get to have 99% of that freedom.

To be clear, I also don’t believe aquaman is playing GM and telling Allvin what he needs to do. He’s probably f***ing around with those lame DJ hires and playlists

Ya exactly. Remember all the Brackett talk about how he was stripped of his authority? Well he was forced to draft Stramel and his boss was investigated for alleged verbal abuse. Did we hear a peep from him?

How many of us if put in the position of being the Canucks owner would be completely hands off? At the very least I want to be informed of any pending big moves. I might be intersted in sitting in when if/when the team is interviewing the next head coach.

Even with all the talk about Aquaman vetoing Gillis on the Kesler trade. It actually is an interesting discussion. If you were Aqualii and you had decided to fire Gillis, would you let him make a potential franchise-altering move like trading Kesler without supervision? Would you be completely hands off when Gillis tells you that the key roster player coming back is Brandon Sutter (especially if you didn't like Sutter?)

 

[Soups On]

That NBA study - when you look at each individual case in it, which is easy to do since it is so limited - simply does not apply to the fact pattern I have described

If my fact pattern is wrong, or if I missed something in the study, I would appreciate a correction of the facts presented, or a quote from the study relating to someone facing circumstances similar to Petey's

I am not the guy who fixes athletes with tendonitis. I am the guy who gave dozens of elite athletes tendonitis as a professional coach in a sport known for over-use injuries

Yeah the unfortunate reality with a lot of these studies is the limited sample size and often with athletes, the severity of tendinopathy and onset of structural changes or symptoms will simply not be publicized.

But the nature of pathology and current culture of sports gives us an important context - tendinopathy is often played through and can be managed throughout the hockey season. If there are degenerative events, players are often taken out of play and return to sport time is relatively quick - too quick in fact. I'd imagine that plenty of those NBA players in that retroactive study fall within the framework of playing with inflammation on a tendon in the sub-acute or chronic stage of injury. Again, I can only make this claim based on what I know about diagnosis timelines, the nature of tendinopathy, and the other paper I cited, which is prevalence of patellar tendinopathy in elite athletes across a wide array of sports (the sample size was over 20,000 there).

I think you may be hung up on the various stages of healing. Athletes should absolutely not play with an acute flare up of their tendon problem - they usually just can't. But as they build load capacity, the amount it takes to overload the tendon increases. The other aspect is the scarring information from the other review I cited - there isn't a 1:1 relationship between medical imaging and function and medical imaging and pain.

I'm the guy that helps people and athletes rehab tendonitis. More often than not, I get them out of there for 6+ weeks so they can properly rebuild function. Timeline of recovery hasn't varied too much if a patient comes to me after 1-2 weeks of knee pain or 3+ months.

If there's a couple things I hope you take away from this discussion it's that tendinopathy more often than not completely resolve with a good rehab program, athletes can play through tendinopathy with good load management strategies, imaging does not give 1:1 relationships in terms of function or pain, and we're on the same page in that we disagree how the Canucks medical staff handled a case of f***ing tendinopathy (and they should just hire me instead)

 

[I am toxic]

Yeah the unfortunate reality with a lot of these studies is the limited sample size and often with athletes, the severity of tendinopathy and onset of structural changes or symptoms will simply not be publicized.

But the nature of pathology and current culture of sports gives us an important context - tendinopathy is often played through and can be managed throughout the hockey season. If there are degenerative events, players are often taken out of play and return to sport time is relatively quick - too quick in fact. I'd imagine that plenty of those NBA players in that retroactive study fall within the framework of playing with inflammation on a tendon in the sub-acute or chronic stage of injury. Again, I can only make this claim based on what I know about diagnosis timelines, the nature of tendinopathy, and the other paper I cited, which is prevalence of patellar tendinopathy in elite athletes across a wide array of sports (the sample size was over 20,000 there).

I think you may be hung up on the various stages of healing. Athletes should absolutely not play with an acute flare up of their tendon problem - they usually just can't. But as they build load capacity, the amount it takes to overload the tendon increases. The other aspect is the scarring information from the other review I cited - there isn't a 1:1 relationship between medical imaging and function and medical imaging and pain.

I'm the guy that helps people and athletes rehab tendonitis. More often than not, I get them out of there for 6+ weeks so they can properly rebuild function. Timeline of recovery hasn't varied too much if a patient comes to me after 1-2 weeks of knee pain or 3+ months.

If there's a couple things I hope you take away from this discussion it's that tendinopathy more often than not completely resolve with a good rehab program, athletes can play through tendinopathy with good load management strategies, imaging does not give 1:1 relationships in terms of function or pain, and we're on the same page in that we disagree how the Canucks medical staff handled a case of f***ing tendinopathy (and they should just hire me instead)

Have you ever taken on a client who developed tendonitis in the knee, and continued to play the equivalent ( or near equivalent, I get that the NHL is rarefied atmosphere but you get the idea) of an NHL regular season for two and half months ( 2-3 games per week) and then a month of playoff hockey, as the starting point of your treatment?

I have trained athletes who had shoulder tendinitis for months training 3+ hours daily in a repetitive use sport

It never ended well. In fact, not only did the tendinitis grow worse, it led to other injuries some of which were equally bad, as the athlete tried to compensate in their motions

I did have one success story. But it was highly . . . unusual

So my experience has been, well crushing, to be frank. I trained these people for over half a decade, and their families were my family. I am playing devil's advocate painting a very black and white picture, to get feedback from people like you so I can understand where I have blind spots. I hope you keep your optimism, and are proved correct. A 90% Petey and a healthy Hughes and Demko make this team, with this coach, and with this management team, a contender for the Cup, which I would love to see play out

 

[lawrence]

I personally thought he was dealing with an injury last summer which prevented him from a solid summer of training. Words from his agent earlier on.

now its Tocchet saying his training needs to be different like wtf is going on.

 

[4th line culture]

I personally thought he was dealing with an injury last summer which prevented him from a solid summer of training. Words from his agent earlier on.

now its Tocchet saying his training needs to be different like wtf is going on.

The Canucks and tocchet dont think tendonitis is an injury, so they think he was just being lazy and not training hard enough when he was trying to recover.

 

[Bleach Clean]

That’s a dumb comment, people are hired to do a job. The job description here is always going to be, make the team good. Any candidate that does not agree with the promise of the job is not going to get the job.

Also all the people qualified for the job are most likely looking at it from a perspective of yeah I can make this happen and that’s why they take it. It’s just so f***ing stupid to say anyone that does what management wants is a puppet.

How the team becomes good is still up to the manager, until it isn't. When it isn't, that manager is a puppet.

Now you could say that listening to the owner at all is not the line. Fair, but this is the last owner that should be offering any GM advice, to anyone, given his reputation...

Further, Rutherford didn't need the job, and has the stature around the league to make Aqua's life miserable. That's why I think it's probable he agrees with the direction (and execution) here.

You can call it stupid, or dumb, or whatever adjective you want to use. It's kind of wild to see around here deference to ownership involvement given the Benning years, but go on and fill your boots.

 

[arttk]

How the team becomes good is still up to the manager, until it isn't. When it isn't, that manager is a puppet.

Now you could say that listening to the owner at all is not the line. Fair, but this is the last owner that should be offering any GM advice, to anyone, given his reputation...

Further, Rutherford didn't need the job, and has the stature around the league to make Aqua's life miserable. That's why I think it's probable he agrees with the direction (and execution) here.

You can call it stupid, or dumb, or whatever adjective you want to use. It's kind of wild to see around here deference to ownership involvement given the Benning years, but go on and fill your boots.

You need to stop. You are making assumptions that the owner is dictating what moves the management need to make. There is no evidence of that. The only thing that I think ownership is involved in is setting the direction and guess what, there is only really 2 direction a team can point towards in a capped league, it’s either build to be a better team or dismantle and rebuild. With Hughes on the team, the default direction is going to be build a better team and there is no GM that would propose a dismantling when you already have the best D in the league already.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I personally thought he was dealing with an injury last summer which prevented him from a solid summer of training. Words from his agent earlier on.

now its Tocchet saying his training needs to be different like wtf is going on.

Their PR department needs to get their stories straight before these conferences.

 

[Bleach Clean]

You need to stop. You are making assumptions that the owner is dictating what moves the management need to make. There is no evidence of that. The only thing that I think ownership is involved in is setting the direction and guess what, there is only really 2 direction a team can point towards in a capped league, it’s either build to be a better team or dismantle and rebuild. With Hughes on the team, the default direction is going to be build a better team and there is no GM that would propose a dismantling when you already have the best D in the league already.

I think you're not reading what is being written. You're on autopilot. Stop, and then read.

For your benefit, I'll post this again: "That's why I think it's probable he [Rutherford] agrees with the direction (and execution) here."

I have not once advocated for a rebuild. Not once.

We are on the 'build' track. That said, how to build has different forms. For example, not trading or re-signing Boeser by the TDL, as a bubble team bereft of assets, raises an eyebrow. As does delaying the Buodreau firing. Little things like this remind of ownership involvement, but are not conclusive evidence of said same. That's why I think Rutherford is still acting of his own accord and we cannot lay the blame of suspect moves on the owner. Not yet anyway.

Other people made the case that Rutherford is compromised by the owner, not me.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Looked at the NHL standings for the first time this season. Saw the Canucks were the classic Canucks where they just missed the playoffs yet f***ed themselves out of a decent draft pick. Laughed about as hard as I laughed in awhile. Hilarious how things never change.

 

[arttk]

I think you're not reading what is being written. You're on autopilot. Stop, and then read.

For your benefit, I'll post this again: "That's why I think it's probable he [Rutherford] agrees with the direction (and execution) here."

I have not once advocated for a rebuild. Not once.

We are on the 'build' track. That said, how to build has different forms. For example, not trading or re-signing Boeser by the TDL, as a bubble team bereft of assets, raises an eyebrow. As does delaying the Buodreau firing. Little things like this remind of ownership involvement, but are not conclusive evidence of said same. That's why I think Rutherford is still acting of his own accord and we cannot lay the blame of suspect moves to the owner. Not yet anyway.

Other people made the case that Rutherford is compromised by the owner, not me.

Friedman already reported nobody made an offer for him and the reason for it is simple,
Boeser underperformed hard and is also demanding a 8x7. Contenders want to get a premier position and also keep the guy if they are spending a 1st and guess what, if you are a contender, you don’t want to spend that money and term on Boeser considering he has only performed to his contract once out of the last 3 years.

BB thing is like the easiest shit to understand. BB did well in his first season so wanting to fire him would be risky because whoever comes had to be better and there is no certainty that would happen. if Tocchet came in and sucked in the 1st season, that would lead to ownership questioning the BB firing and decrease the trust they have in management. By letting BB fail, it was a no brainer to fire him at that point and did not cost him anything in terms of ownership trust.

Have you ever managed up before?