Management Thread Blurst of Times

[Cancuks]

Too much change to the roster has negatively affected this team. It's not even the same team as a year or two ago. Building a contender takes several years, the team needs to grow together and learn from mistakes. Chemistry is a real thing. Boeser will be gone next, Demko I'm sure as well. Might as well just rip the bandaid off and trade everyone including Hughes and start over and do it the right way. That said, you got to draft the right players as well.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Green stepped up when covid decimated the team, when the owner and management crawled under a rock like slimy gutless cowards

I will give him that. He was not a massive upgrade on Willie D - like, maybe the difference between a muon neutrino and a tau neutrino

But. We. Just. Don't. Know

Oh right!

They let him take the heat, answering questions the President / GM should have been answering... That was a thing that happened.

 

[Breakers]

who's the common denominator under both regimes

 

[Hodgy]

who's the common denominator under both regimes

This is great. And Don is 100% right. We just keep on prioritizing present results at the expense of future results, and we are getting the same result over and over again. Its beyond frustrating as a fan with long term interests in the team. And that isn't to say we should rebuild right now (although if somehow ownership approved that I would go that direction and not ask twice for fear of them revoking that approval) as it probably makes sense to give this "core", if you can call it that, one more kick at the can. If we fail and Hughes doesn't re-sign, that when you know you need to rebuild, although I am fairly certain that we will try a "retool on the fly" type approach in that event.

 

[Bleach Clean]

who's the common denominator under both regimes

I just saw this video before you posted it: It is Benning-esque... It's eerily similar.

The strangest part of what has occurred here for the past 2.5 years, for me anyway, is to see knowledgeable posters buy into what was essentially the Benning model... Just with a different face.

Allvin executed last year. The issue is that he had to keep executing. His margin for error was razor thin, and obviously he didn't 'thread the needle'. He failed. Now, fans/media are no longer buoyed by execution. They have realized that the underpinnings of their plan had always been shoddy.

Choosing a fast re-tool with this particular base is Benning-esque. It ignores or marginalizes the future burden of performance on the GM. The funny thing is that both Benning and Allvin/Rutherford were both arrogant enough to think they could do it.

I just want someone in the front office to finally wake up. Even if the owner is delusional, you don't have to be.

 

[racerjoe]

This is great. And Don is 100% right. We just keep on prioritizing present results at the expense of future results, and we are getting the same result over and over again. Its beyond frustrating as a fan with long term interests in the team. And that isn't to say we should rebuild right now (although if somehow ownership approved that I would go that direction and not ask twice for fear of them revoking that approval) as it probably makes sense to give this "core", if you can call it that, one more kick at the can. If we fail and Hughes doesn't re-sign, that when you know you need to rebuild, although I am fairly certain that we will try a "retool on the fly" type approach in that event.

Except his facts are wrong

I wanted a rebuild back after the twins and during the Benning era. We are just far away from that. That wasn't an option when our current management took over.

Again there is no doubt they have made mistakes, and most likely this option will fail... but most likely a rebuild would fail too. You just don't rebuild when you have Quinn Hughes in his prime signed for just a few more seasons.

Its not giving this core one more kick... its giving us WITH Quinn as many kicks as possible.

 

[ExarKun80]

who's the common denominator under both regimes

 

[EpochLink]

who's the common denominator under both regimes

The man with the massive amounts of child support

 

[Breakers]

The man with the massive amounts of child support

I think that’s the only time I’ve been on Aquilini’s side when he questioned why his wife is buying the kids $35,000 computers for university.

 

[EpochLink]

I think that’s the only time I’ve been on Aquilini’s side when he questioned why his wife is buying the kids $35,000 computers for university.

You mean they were buying designer clothes and some massive amounts of bumps

 

[Hodgy]

Except his facts are wrong

I wanted a rebuild back after the twins and during the Benning era. We are just far away from that. That wasn't an option when our current management took over.

I agree, I don't think its ever been an option with this current ownership. But there is a difference between what I want them to do, what we should do, or what they can do. I am not talking about the latter.

Again there is no doubt they have made mistakes, and most likely this option will fail... but most likely a rebuild would fail too.

Fail in terms of winning the Stanley Cup? Sure, most strategies will fail on this. But I also don't think its fair to suggest that rebuilds and retools on the fly, or whatever, have the same likelihood of success. I think the former has a materially high likelihood of success.

You just don't rebuild when you have Quinn Hughes in his prime signed for just a few more seasons.

Ya, I tend to agree. But my post was caveated with ownership actually greenlighting a rebuild, which because that idea is so unlikely, I'd actually consider doing the rebuild.

Its not giving this core one more kick... its giving us WITH Quinn as many kicks as possible.

Again, I agree.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Except his facts are wrong

I wanted a rebuild back after the twins and during the Benning era. We are just far away from that. That wasn't an option when our current management took over.

Again there is no doubt they have made mistakes, and most likely this option will fail... but most likely a rebuild would fail too. You just don't rebuild when you have Quinn Hughes in his prime signed for just a few more seasons.

Its not giving this core one more kick... its giving us WITH Quinn as many kicks as possible.

We're too far gone now for a rebuild. On that part, Donnie is off.

But they didn't have to re-tool in this way either. This will now be 5 drafts that Rutherford has been here and his 2 best acquisitions are MPetey and Hronek, both of whom are here because of assets like Miller and Horvat... That's the net result of almost 4.5 years of work.

The heart of the argument is not having good young players to bolster Hughes and Pettersson. All they've done is shuffle the top and cycle the checkers. The team isn't building or moving forward in an appreciable way.

Even if you hold Hughes and Pettersson as sacrosanct, they've still failed around them and that's the real issue.

 

[iFan]

Management isn’t shy about making moves but it is a lot of musical chairs. We go from having good center depth and offensive players but a poor D, to a strong D group with no centers or offence. They need to start pushing this team forward, we’re just spinning our tires at this point.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Except his facts are wrong

I wanted a rebuild back after the twins and during the Benning era. We are just far away from that. That wasn't an option when our current management took over.

Again there is no doubt they have made mistakes, and most likely this option will fail... but most likely a rebuild would fail too. You just don't rebuild when you have Quinn Hughes in his prime signed for just a few more seasons.

Its not giving this core one more kick... its giving us WITH Quinn as many kicks as possible.

Like right now? It's not an option given how Pettersson has an anchor contract and we have the entire blueline signed in their prime.

In 2021/2022 when JR took over? It was where I thought we were heading. JR stressed the importance of not taking short-cuts and keeping top picks. He was not a fan of the team. There were internal rumblings about trading JT Miller early on (clearly, the brass identified issues). They clearly pivoted pretty quickly by using the last bit of capspace of Mikheyev which forced them to trade Dickinson (along with a high pick).

The direction they chose almost paid off. They were Boeser/Demko away from breaking through to the WCF last spring.

At the same time, you can also see some of Aquilini's fingerprints. The hiring/firing of Boudreau, shutting the 2022 Miller trade down, vetoing the Boeser deal.

 

[racerjoe]

We're too far gone now for a rebuild. On that part, Donnie is off.

But they didn't have to re-tool in this way either. This will now be 5 drafts that Rutherford has been here and his 2 best acquisitions are MPetey and Hronek, both of whom are here because of assets like Miller and Horvat... That's the net result of almost 4.5 years of work.

The heart of the argument is not having good young players to bolster Hughes and Pettersson. All they've done is shuffle the top and cycle the checkers. The team isn't building or moving forward in an appreciable way.

Even if you hold Hughes and Pettersson as sacrosanct, they've still failed around them and that's the real issue.

I think its easy to say we should have rebuilt five years ago, but does Quinn either make the strides he has or stick around for that? Does Petey? Are we able to come out of that rebuild now? We certainly don't have last season.

I think this team today sits in a playoff spot in a normal season... this just wasn't a normal season, and yes improvements are still needed. But we are better off.

Like right now? It's not an option given how Pettersson has an anchor contract and we have the entire blueline signed in their prime.

In 2021/2022 when JR took over? It was where I thought we were heading. JR stressed the importance of not taking short-cuts and keeping top picks. He was not a fan of the team. There were internal rumblings about trading JT Miller early on (clearly, the brass identified issues). They clearly pivoted pretty quickly by using the last bit of capspace of Mikheyev which forced them to trade Dickinson (along with a high pick).

The direction they chose almost paid off. They were Boeser/Demko away from breaking through to the WCF last spring.

At the same time, you can also see some of Aquilini's fingerprints. The hiring/firing of Boudreau, shutting the 2022 Miller trade down, vetoing the Boeser deal.

Their biggest mistep, which for me is a hindsight, but I think they should have seen coming was dealing Horvat instead of Miller.

This team looks vastly better with Horvat there as the number 2 guy where he should be a number 2 centre. Miller traded that summer. It was their fault for not taking the "bad" package that ends up being the same package we had to take now.

 

[Jerry the great]

Pettersson + Horvat as your 1-2 down the middle is way too soft. If we're going to play the shoulda woulda game with the full benefit of hindsight, they probably should have traded Pettersson for Necas+Kotkaniemi+prospect+pick. It would have preserved the money hierarchy until Hughes was ready to to take the crown. We'd have been faster, and more balanced. It's not like Pettersson did SFA after he signed that deal.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I think its easy to say we should have rebuilt five years ago, but does Quinn either make the strides he has or stick around for that? Does Petey? Are we able to come out of that rebuild now? We certainly don't have last season.

I think this team today sits in a playoff spot in a normal season... this just wasn't a normal season, and yes improvements are still needed. But we are better off.

A true rebuild was not an option, then or now. No one is advocating for this.

Re-tooling slower, accruing more assets, that's what is missing. It's the difference between acting like a contender and spending a 1st+ on Lindholm and Zadorov and not securing either one, to spending another 1st on MPetey, all while being asset shy. They burned through too much capital garnering little long-term value.

They are not going to the playoffs, and are 8 of 10 years out of the playoffs. That's the reality of this team.

 

[Hodgy]

I just want someone in the front office to finally wake up. Even if the owner is delusional, you don't have to be.

Like when Trevor Linden “woke up” and then was immediately shown the door?

I think this management team can be criticized for how they have executed the macro plan, but other than agreeing to the job in the first place or not quitting, I’m not sure they can be criticized on a macro level. It’s pretty obvious who’s setting the direction.

 

[arttk]

I just saw this video before you posted it: It is Benning-esque... It's eerily similar.

The strangest part of what has occurred here for the past 2.5 years, for me anyway, is to see knowledgeable posters buy into what was essentially the Benning model... Just with a different face.

Allvin executed last year. The issue is that he had to keep executing. His margin for error was razor thin, and obviously he didn't 'thread the needle'. He failed. Now, fans/media are no longer buoyed by execution. They have realized that the underpinnings of their plan had always been shoddy.

Choosing a fast re-tool with this particular base is Benning-esque. It ignores or marginalizes the future burden of performance on the GM. The funny thing is that both Benning and Allvin/Rutherford were both arrogant enough to think they could do it.

I just want someone in the front office to finally wake up. Even if the owner is delusional, you don't have to be.

There is no such thing as a Benning model. Benning wanted to improve the team but he had zero direction other than, let’s get more players that he thinks are better or players he wanted to draft and didn’t get a chance to do so. That’s it.

also this is a capped sports league, people need to stop thinking there is some 4D chess around team building. If you are good at pro scouting, amateur scouting, cap management, then odds is you will have a good team over a period of time.

This whole we need to rebuild because that gives us the best chance to compete is just f***ing nonsense. Yes at some point we need to rebuild, but you don’t rebuild when you have a Hart level player with an expiring contract.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Like when Trevor Linden “woke up” and then was immediately shown the door?

I think this management team can be criticized for how they have executed the macro plan, but other than agreeing to the job in the first place or not quitting, I’m not sure they can be criticized on a macro level. It’s pretty obvious who’s setting the direction.

Either you're a manager or your'e a puppet.

Rutherford believes in the direction. I don't accept your frame that he is beholden to following the owner. There's enough experience and respect there that he can influence the owner, he just has chosen not to.

 

[Bleach Clean]

There is no such thing as a Benning model. Benning wanted to improve the team but he had zero direction other than, let’s get more players that he thinks are better or players he wanted to draft and didn’t get a chance to do so. That’s it.

also this is a capped sports league, people need to stop thinking there is some 4D chess around team building. If you are good at pro scouting, amateur scouting, cap management, then odds is you will have a good team over a period of time.

This whole we need to rebuild because that gives us the best chance to compete is just f***ing nonsense. Yes at some point we need to rebuild, but you don’t rebuild when you have a Hart level player with an expiring contract.

Take the rebuild stuff up with Donnie.

Benning tried to rebuild on the fly while being a bottom end team with little future assets. This is similar, only the team is middling instead of being downright poor.

 

[andora]

What I always find interesting when this discussion inevitably goes back into where it is again now is that it always seems to be glossed over how much work has gone into the farm system and what it's actually producing. I know this doesn't get us the shiny first overall draft picks but at the end of the day you're building a program that's sustainably produces reliable hockey players.

This kind of thing takes more than three seasons to get into place and to evolve but we are seeing it. So what we do have to acknowledge is that if we have the god-awful 20th pick one year is that if we have an amazing system and development plan why can't that 20th pick be good enough

I really do think that there's more in play here than how simply it's discussed around here

 

[mdobbs]

What I always find interesting when this discussion inevitably goes back into where it is again now is that it always seems to be glossed over how much work has gone into the farm system and what it's actually producing. I know this doesn't get us the shiny first overall draft picks but at the end of the day you're building a program that's sustainably produces reliable hockey players.

This kind of thing takes more than three seasons to get into place and to evolve but we are seeing it. So what we do have to acknowledge is that if we have the god-awful 20th pick one year is that if we have an amazing system and development plan why can't that 20th pick be good enough

I really do think that there's more in play here than how simply it's discussed around here

Agree 100 %

This is the 2nd full season of this management group. Our minor league system is already significantly better than any point during the Benning years (although some of that was moving the team to Abby)

People have short memory and forget how incompetent the Benning regime was in managing every part of the organization

 

[andora]

Agree 100 %

This is the 2nd full season of this management group. Our minor league system is already significantly better than any point during the Benning years (although some of that was moving the team to Abby)

People have short memory and forget how incompetent the Benning regime was in managing every part of the organization

 

[tyhee]

Find me literally anything that suggests Miller and EP were going to implode dated anytime between the start of last season and the start of this one.

If you find any sort of evidence of that I will say you're right.

I'll wait.

I don't understand why the start of your time frame is so late, as it seems to me that the relevant time frame was the offseason of 2022.

Look at Ex-Canuck Brad Richardson: I told J.T. Miller he's too hard on Elias Pettersson

If it was apparent to Brad Richardson from spending 17 games with the team in the spring of 2022, the existence of the problem was there to be seen by the Canucks' management and coaching staff long before the Canucks traded Horvat-in fact, at a time when Bo hadn't had his big goal scoring year and, while I'm speculating here, he likely could have been signed for less than the Islanders eventually gave him.

This indicates that the Canucks took at least three gambles in the summer of 2022 and lost on two of them. One was gambling that the problems in the Miller-Pettersson relationship would be manageable, another that Horvat's value wouldn't increase during the 2022-2023 season. The third gamble, whether Miller's play would live up to his new contract, they probably won, given his outstanding play in 2023-2024.

One win out of three gambles turned out not to be good enough.