Management Thread Blurst of Times

[PuckMunchkin]

Find me literally anything that suggests Miller and EP were going to implode dated anytime between the start of last season and the start of this one.

If you find any sort of evidence of that I will say you're right.

I'll wait.

Why would it need to be during that exact time and between him and EP specifically?

Frame your argument in a way that makes some sense and maybe I'll find you proof of Miller being a problem.

 

[ScottishCanuck]

Perhaps the biggest summer in the history of the franchise. Need to prove to Hughes we’re not a dumpster fire or he’ll lose patience and be out. And then we’re right back to square one.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Perhaps the biggest summer in the history of the franchise. Need to prove to Hughes we’re not a dumpster fire or he’ll lose patience and be out. And then we’re right back to square one.

Its definitely up there.

Too bad the UFA market is really shallow and with the cap jumping prices will be even more inflated for mediocre talent.

 

[TruGr1t]

Find me literally anything that suggests Miller and EP were going to implode dated anytime between the start of last season and the start of this one.

If you find any sort of evidence of that I will say you're right.

I'll wait.

Management has basically admitted they were dealing with the situation for a while, I read it basically as since they took over. Plus you have Brad Richardson's comments backing it up:

"... I felt like for a long time that there was a solution here because everybody has worked on it, including the parties involved," Rutherford told Mason.
“But it only gets resolved for a short period of time and then it festers again and so it certainly appears like there’s not a good solution that would keep this group together.”

They clearly knew about it, thought they could manage it, and then it blew up in their faces ... effectively short-term crippling the franchise. It's on them. There's also been reports they had intended to sign Horvat and trade Miller, but Horvat got hot at the end of the season and his asking price went way up, plus even then the offers they were getting on Miller were apparently terrible. So they pivoted and signed miller (trading Horvat) when that wasn't the original plan. That's also what pissed off Horvat, who continues to say to this day that basically management did not deal with him in good faith.

 

[racerjoe]

Management has basically admitted they were dealing with the situation for a while, I read it basically as since they took over. Plus you have Brad Richardson's comments backing it up:



They clearly knew about it, thought they could manage it, and then it blew up in their faces ... effectively short-term crippling the franchise. It's on them. There's also been reports they had intended to sign Horvat and trade Miller, but Horvat got hot at the end of the season and his asking price went way up, plus even then the offers they were getting on Miller were apparently terrible. So they pivoted and signed miller (trading Horvat) when that wasn't the original plan. That's also what pissed off Horvat, who continues to say to this day that basically management did not deal with him in good faith.

The offers for Miller have consistently been the same. If they hadn’t been so concerned with winning a trade, we should have traded miller for the same value we got now, signed horvat for less than he signed for now in the prior summer. Still had the extra first to work with, and a shot at Hronek.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The offers for Miller have consistently been the same. If they hadn’t been so concerned with winning a trade, we should have traded miller for the same value we got now, signed horvat for less than he signed for now in the prior summer. Still had the extra first to work with, and a shot at Hronek.

As far as we know.

 

[Hodgy]

Management has basically admitted they were dealing with the situation for a while, I read it basically as since they took over. Plus you have Brad Richardson's comments backing it up:



They clearly knew about it, thought they could manage it, and then it blew up in their faces ... effectively short-term crippling the franchise. It's on them. There's also been reports they had intended to sign Horvat and trade Miller, but Horvat got hot at the end of the season and his asking price went way up, plus even then the offers they were getting on Miller were apparently terrible. So they pivoted and signed miller (trading Horvat) when that wasn't the original plan. That's also what pissed off Horvat, who continues to say to this day that basically management did not deal with him in good faith.

But you aren’t providing what he’s asking. I think it’s clear that Petey and Miller had issues for years, but we were an awesome team last year despite this. So the fact they didn’t get along was never some fait accompli until like this season. Again, everyone knew Petey and Miller didn’t get along but absolutely no one predicted this. And we all knew Miller was a bozo, and again, no one predicted the LOA.

Not saying management isn’t deserving of some blame, because they absolutely are. But these adds idea that this was a predictable result isn’t really true. And frankly, if management did a better job constructing the defense last off season, and Petey didn’t become a fifty point centre, then I don’t know if the issue becomes acute and we get the LOA and eventual trade.

And trading Horvat was absolutely the right call. You don’t pay pending UFAs based on unsustainable fifty goal paces. I mean, I would have traded Miller too, but this management and ownership is committed to the win now! plan so this just wasn’t going to happen.

And frankly, last season probably represents one of the better/less likely outcomes of management’s compete now! strategy anyway. Unfortunately, now, it seems very unlikely we are going to see any real success here under that model.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

But you aren’t providing what he’s asking. I think it’s clear that Petey and Miller had issues for years, but we were an awesome team last year despite this. So the fact they didn’t get along was never some fait accompli until like this season. Again, everyone knew Petey and Miller didn’t get along but absolutely no one predicted this. And we all knew Miller was a bozo, and again, no one predicted the LOA.

We were a decent team on a insane PDO bender.

Not saying management isn’t deserving of some blame, because they absolutely are. But these adds idea that this was a predictable result isn’t really true. And frankly, if management did a better job constructing the defense last off season, and Petey didn’t become a fifty point centre, then I don’t know if the issue becomes acute and we get the LOA and eventual trade.

They took a risk with a talented player who had a history of character issues.

And trading Horvat was absolutely the right call. You don’t pay pending UFAs based on unsustainable fifty goal paces. I mean, I would have traded Miller too, but this management and ownership is committed to the win now! plan so this just wasn’t going to happen.

They should have got him signed up before the season started.

And frankly, last season probably represents one of the better/less likely outcomes of management’s compete now! strategy anyway. Unfortunately, now, it seems very unlikely we are going to see any real success here under that model.

We definitely agree.

It was pretty much the 99th percentile outcome for the talent we iced.

 

[Hodgy]

We were a decent team on an insane PDO bender.

That’s not the point though. The point is that we were a good team and no one predicted this last year.

They took a risk with a talented player who had a history of character issues.

Like I said, management deserves some blame. But what actually happened wasn’t remotely predictable. Again, Miller and Petey hadn’t been getting along for years and we never experienced this type of escalation. There was definitely a world where Petey doesn’t start to suck, management puts together a passable defense, and this team continues on like last year. In, I’d say that was by far the most likely outcome last fall. Again, no one predicted this.

They should have got him signed up before the season started.

They were negotiating and trying to squeeze Horvat so they could get the best deal. Not exactly uncommon in the NHL. What happened was that Horvat started scoring at an entirely new and unsustainable pace which was 100% unpredictable and led to him being traded. But he just as easily could have had a bad year and we could have signed him to a bargain contract. This is just how things go.

We definitely agree.

It was pretty much the 99th percentile outcome for the talent we iced.

The outcome was unlikely given the approach, I agree.

 

[racerjoe]

As far as we know.

I mean I have said and do think my opinion is based on fan hindsight… but if I know this as management I make other choices.

 

[TruGr1t]

But you aren’t providing what he’s asking. I think it’s clear that Petey and Miller had issues for years, but we were an awesome team last year despite this. So the fact they didn’t get along was never some fait accompli until like this season. Again, everyone knew Petey and Miller didn’t get along but absolutely no one predicted this. And we all knew Miller was a bozo, and again, no one predicted the LOA.

Not saying management isn’t deserving of some blame, because they absolutely are. But these adds idea that this was a predictable result isn’t really true. And frankly, if management did a better job constructing the defense last off season, and Petey didn’t become a fifty point centre, then I don’t know if the issue becomes acute and we get the LOA and eventual trade.

And trading Horvat was absolutely the right call. You don’t pay pending UFAs based on unsustainable fifty goal paces. I mean, I would have traded Miller too, but this management and ownership is committed to the win now! plan so this just wasn’t going to happen.

And frankly, last season probably represents one of the better/less likely outcomes of management’s compete now! strategy anyway. Unfortunately, now, it seems very unlikely we are going to see any real success here under that model.

The original plan was clearly not to trade Horvat, though. It's been pretty widely reported they tried to trade Miller at that time and couldn't get the return they wanted, so they pivoted. This also coincided with Horvat going bonkers and asking for more money, but they could have signed him at any time that season, but this management team has a habit of leaving extensions way too long on certain players waiting for them to "prove it" or something. They obviously knew the risk at the time, or they would not have flirted with Horvat up until the last minute and then pissed him off by about-facing and sending him out of town when he was expecting an extension. I do believe to original plan was the build the core around Pettersson/Horvat down the middle.

So yes, they took a massive gamble on the dynamic, it briefly almost worked, and now we're pretty screwed. I don't have a lot of sympathy since they would have gone into this entire situation (including all the trades and hefty extensions) with eyes wide open.

 

[Hodgy]

The original plan was clearly not to trade Horvat, though. It's been pretty widely reported they tried to trade Miller at that time and couldn't get the return they wanted, so they pivoted. This also coincided with Horvat going bonkers and asking for more money, but they could have signed him at any time that season, but this management team has a habit of leaving extensions way too long on certain players waiting for them to "prove it" or something. They obviously knew the risk at the time, or they would not have flirted with Horvat up until the last minute and then pissed him off by about-facing and sending him out of town when he was expecting an extension. I do believe to original plan was the build the core around Pettersson/Horvat down the middle.

Timing of extensions is always a risk. But look at Pettersson - signing early can burn you too. Hindsight’s 20/20.

So yes, they took a massive gamble on the dynamic, it briefly almost worked, and now we're pretty screwed. I don't have a lot of sympathy since they would have gone into this entire situation (including all the trades and hefty extensions) with eyes wide open.

Again, the ultimate result was entirely unpredictable which isn’t to say that they didn’t also manage things poorly.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Timing of extensions is always a risk. But look at Pettersson - signing early can burn you too. Hindsight’s 20/20.

Wasnt early.

And injuries happen. Hockey is a physical contact sport. You cant sign anyone if them getting injured is "getting burned."

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Again, the ultimate result was entirely unpredictable which isn’t to say that they didn’t also manage things poorly.

Not really from what we hear.

It wasnt entirely unpredictable. Miller has a history of causing locker room problems.

Look. If you choose a path that is likely to fail, I dont give style points for failing in a somewhat unexpected way.

 

[Hodgy]

Not really from what we hear.

It wasnt entirely unpredictable. Miller has a history of causing locker room problems.

Look. If you choose a path that is likely to fail, I dont give style points for failing in a somewhat unexpected way.

You are missing my point. My point isn’t that Miller being a bozo wasn’t predictable. We already knew he was a bozo. My point was that him and Petey not getting along to such a degree that Miller was forced into a literally unprecedented LOA was not reasonably predictable. And again, literally no one predicted this outcome.

Wasnt early.

It was earlier than they needed to. There are obviously reasons why they wanted to re-sign when they did, but in hindsight, if they had have waited, they would have got a better deal. And that’s the point. There is risk both ways.

And injuries happen. Hockey is a physical contact sport. You cant sign anyone if them getting injured is "getting burned."I

Injuries hurt contract value. There is absolutely no way the Canucks make the same offer to Petey that they did knowing that he’d score at at a fifty point pace for a year after making that offer. Why Petey has sucked isn’t relevant. The point is waiting on signing a player can go both ways, and people criticizing management for not signing Horvat during the summer is 100% just using hindsight when no one would have predicted at that time that Horvat would magically turn into a 50-60 goal scorer or whatever pace he scored at.

 

[I am toxic]

Ahhhhhh, referencing that Mason propaganda piece sure brings back mixed feelings

Gary did great work in the G&M after the la Traviata debacle, helping lead to some decent reforms in avvy safety, but it is sad to see him reduced to being a total complete utter 1,000% and then some shill* for disgustingly cowardly ownership and management behaviour

* apologies to all the shills, gaslighters and astroturfers reading this. Remember, no one loves you more than I do

 

[theguardianII]

The original plan was clearly not to trade Horvat, though. It's been pretty widely reported they tried to trade Miller at that time and couldn't get the return they wanted, so they pivoted. This also coincided with Horvat going bonkers and asking for more money, but they could have signed him at any time that season, but this management team has a habit of leaving extensions way too long on certain players waiting for them to "prove it" or something. They obviously knew the risk at the time, or they would not have flirted with Horvat up until the last minute and then pissed him off by about-facing and sending him out of town when he was expecting an extension. I do believe to original plan was the build the core around Pettersson/Horvat down the middle.

So yes, they took a massive gamble on the dynamic, it briefly almost worked, and now we're pretty screwed. I don't have a lot of sympathy since they would have gone into this entire situation (including all the trades and hefty extensions) with eyes wide open.

I thought the Miller trade at the draft was a done deal until it got leaked out and then Lamorellio nixed it.

But he came back later and did a deal for Horvat.

 

[kanucks25]

Why would it need to be during that exact time and between him and EP specifically?

Frame your argument in a way that makes some sense and maybe I'll find you proof of Miller being a problem.

Management has basically admitted they were dealing with the situation for a while, I read it basically as since they took over. Plus you have Brad Richardson's comments backing it up:

They clearly knew about it, thought they could manage it, and then it blew up in their faces ... effectively short-term crippling the franchise. It's on them. There's also been reports they had intended to sign Horvat and trade Miller, but Horvat got hot at the end of the season and his asking price went way up, plus even then the offers they were getting on Miller were apparently terrible. So they pivoted and signed miller (trading Horvat) when that wasn't the original plan. That's also what pissed off Horvat, who continues to say to this day that basically management did not deal with him in good faith

@Hodgy has explained what I meant already but just to clarify:

During or after last season there was literally nobody suggesting Miller would cause the locker room to eventually blow up or that we should be trading him. Everyone both in and out of the market would have said the Canucks had a great season and they should be adding to the core to try to take the next step.

You're kidding yourself if you actually believe you "saw this coming" after last season. Like I said: In most other universes we have two 1Cs performing as you expect they would be and we'd be comfortably in a playoff position.

But the Space Jam aliens stole Petey's powers and the rest is history. So, again, if anyone can find me a quote or anything of someone suggesting things are going to sideways in the strangest way and it will cause the locker room to implode, I will concede that it was predictable. But until then, it's just BS revisionism.

 

[Canucks LB]

It’s just all comes down to the trade deadline, and I wanna be hard on the management, but everybody f***ing knows it was the ownership, you know it, I know it, everybody knows it.

There is no way they could not get more futures to use as ammo for the off-season.

This was an ownership decision

 

[racerjoe]

@Hodgy has explained what I meant already but just to clarify:

During or after last season there was literally nobody suggesting Miller would cause the locker room to eventually blow up or that we should be trading him. Everyone both in and out of the market would have said the Canucks had a great season and they should be adding to the core to try to take the next step.

You're kidding yourself if you actually believe you "saw this coming" after last season. Like I said: In most other universes we have two 1Cs performing as you expect they would be and we'd be comfortably in a playoff position.

But the Space Jam aliens stole Petey's powers and the rest is history. So, again, if anyone can find me a quote or anything of someone suggesting things are going to sideways in the strangest way and it will cause the locker room to implode, I will concede that it was predictable. But until then, it's just BS revisionism.

This misses the point.

The question should be should we have traded Bo or JT. In hindsight for me at least, it’s easy to see we should have traded JT. Management had the info in front of them to make that decision not in hindsight.

As @TruGr1t has even said, we knew miller was a bozoo and that this was a possibility. Hell there were already rumours that Bo and JT didn’t get along, we know a huge reason Miller was included in the TBay deal from NYR was because of a feud with their star, and we have heard Yzerman say he wouldn’t want JT back.

We have seen JT be a bozo with our backup goalie and almost get in a fight at the end of a period with a teammate.

We also know JT trade value has pretty much never changed. So seems to me with all this info we should have kept Bo, and seems to me management had all of this info before and made the wrong choice because they wanted more value that was never there or going to be there.

 

[kanucks25]

This misses the point.

The question should be should we have traded Bo or JT. In hindsight for me at least, it’s easy to see we should have traded JT. Management had the info in front of them to make that decision not in hindsight.

As @TruGr1t has even said, we knew miller was a bozoo and that this was a possibility. Hell there were already rumours that Bo and JT didn’t get along, we know a huge reason Miller was included in the TBay deal from NYR was because of a feud with their star, and we have heard Yzerman say he wouldn’t want JT back.

We have seen JT be a bozo with our backup goalie and almost get in a fight at the end of a period with a teammate.

We also know JT trade value has pretty much never changed. So seems to me with all this info we should have kept Bo, and seems to me management had all of this info before and made the wrong choice because they wanted more value that was never there or going to be there.

To me it's not a Miller vs Bo thing, because I would not have kept Bo in vacuum.

He wanted to be overpaid and therefore should have been traded regardless.

Even if Miller wasn't on the team at the time I still would have traded Bo and looked for a different center to replace him.

 

[racerjoe]

To me it's not a Miller vs Bo thing, because I would not have kept Bo in vacuum.

He wanted to be overpaid and therefore should have been traded regardless.

Even if Miller wasn't on the team at the time I still would have traded Bo and looked for a different center to replace him.

That’s just it… we could have signed him for far less though earlier… but we didn’t cause we wanted to get more value for miller.

 

[JAK]

The only thing consistent through all the management issues is....

Ownership.

Maybe it's time to change ownership.

 

[TruGr1t]

Again, the ultimate result was entirely unpredictable which isn’t to say that they didn’t also manage things poorly.

The end result is not "entirely unpredictable", it is in fact directly on a realistic range of outcomes knowing this situation was present for years. They arrogantly thought they could manage it, and clearly couldn't. They tried to trade Miller multiple times, and couldn't get the return they wanted, so decided to stick with him despite the risk of this happening clearly being present throughout. The fact it almost worked for them last year before blowing up in their faces, is in my opinion, the most irrelevant portion of this discourse. They had access to this information for years.

The only thing I'll give management a pass on, is the Demko injury (which probably actually tanked the franchise more than anything else), and Hughes injury later this season.

 

[andora]

So we are discussing how predictable things were now?

So below two visuals of the predictable and unpredictable realms - only issue is i dont know where to slot the miller thing in on the bottom visual