Management Thread | Blurst of Times

[kanucks25]

All the Hughes panic talk to keep him here is a distraction and frankly meaningless.

We all saw the results of putting players ahead of the team, the Sedins.
Management drove this team into the grave for a decade by putting them ahead of the team and to please them.
What did the team end up with besides two players that played an extra 18 games here?

The impact is still being felt 7 years later.

Hughes is different, he has all the power where he plays in 2 1/3 years.
But the team does have the hammer until that last day and if there is any question at all and maybe even if there isn't he should be dealt for the overall good of the team's future.

Pettersson like Miller will play much better in a new market.
An issue is the "instant gratification" crowd and the doom and gloom media that ignore any long term benefits. If they don't see immediate results they claim doom and gloom and the owned media loves to feed that fire and encourage even more discourse and scare mongering.

Management, Allvin, loves long term contracts because he gets a few done and then any fault is placed on the player for not improving every year, it is the player's fault.
A large contract does not bestow longevity, added skill every year or chemistry with players of coach systems.

You're completely ignoring the Jim Benning factor.

If you have special players you keep them and build around them. It's not the Sedins fault they had to finish their careers with arguably the worst general manager of the salary cap era.

The difference is that the core was obviously done when Benning took over.

The "you have to try to win with the Sedins" idea was asinine because there was simply no way you could win with them.

That's not true in this case because the core is not old at all. Assuming Willander and Lekk are in the lineup at the start of next year, we'll be a pretty young team on average.

You must appease Hughes because the only chance we have at winning over the next like 6-7 years is with him in the lineup. If you're not doing what you can do to keep him, you might as well trade him and scorch the earth.

 

[rypper]

The difference is that the core was obviously done when Benning took over.

The "you have to try to win with the Sedins" idea was asinine because there was simply no way you could win with them.

That's not true in this case because the core is not old at all. Assuming Willander and Lekk are in the lineup at the start of next year, we'll be a pretty young team on average.

You must appease Hughes because the only chance we have at winning over the next like 6-7 years is with him in the lineup. If you're not doing what you can do to keep him, you might as well trade him and scorch the earth.

I disagree pretty hard there. The Canucks with the twins made the playoffs in 14/15 and could have easily beat Calgary if not for Willie and 1,2,3,4.

Making the right draft pick in 14 and 16 and you have young players on the come to supplement the twins. Without Jim Benning's disastrous free agent signings and trades you could transiston the twins to the second line and have the next wave take the lead. Instead of slumping them on an island with Sutter, Megna, etc.

 

[kanucks25]

I disagree pretty hard there. The Canucks with the twins made the playoffs in 14/15 and could have easily beat Calgary if not for Willie and 1,2,3,4.

Making the right draft pick in 14 and 16 and you have young players on the come to supplement the twins. Without Jim Benning's disastrous free agent signings and trades you could transiston the twins to the second line and have the next wave take the lead. Instead of slumping them on an island with Sutter, Megna, etc.

Yes if the GM made all the right signings, trades and draft picks it was possible to win but you can say that about almost any team.

We're dealing with a lot, and I mean a lot of hypotheticals here so we can just agree to disagree.

 

[rypper]

But Allvin is quickly catching up.

There's a literal grand canyon separating the two.

 

[theguardianII]

The difference is that the core was obviously done when Benning took over.

The "you have to try to win with the Sedins" idea was asinine because there was simply no way you could win with them.

That's not true in this case because the core is not old at all. Assuming Willander and Lekk are in the lineup at the start of next year, we'll be a pretty young team on average.

You must appease Hughes because the only chance we have at winning over the next like 6-7 years is with him in the lineup. If you're not doing what you can do to keep him, you might as well trade him and scorch the earth.

Who is the core?
EP - MIA
Hughes - Injured
Demko - retired now?

Is the core 28 yr old Boeser who hasn't scored 10 goals in the last 40 games?
Garland and his whopping 37 pts?

Hughes could have 150 pts and there still isn't enough players ON THIS TEAM.

You HOPE Willander can be a #3or 4 dman, he has never played at any pro level
Lekkimaki needs some one to pass him the puck
Chytil is one hit away from retirement.

This team right now has only two regular roster players under 26 yrs old, that isn't young. Any others are getting under 10 min and periodic appearances, not close to core players.

How do you convince Hughes to play for another 4 or 5 years without ever having a cup run? Especially if he can sign with any cup contending team in 2 years? The Canucks can't out bid any team. With the cap increase Hughes will sign a Mathews type contract, 4/5 yrs at 18+ million then the retirement contract at 20+ mil.
His family love him as much or more than any fan base. Do you think he really wants to do interviews with this team for the next two years? He doesn't even summer here.

Why do some fans think this team cannot win without him? What makes some fans think they are winning now? The team has more losses than wins and has been that way every year but last season. And that was with multiple players having the years of their careers, that doesn't happen every year.

Why do some fans think he wants to be here even now? The only reason he is was due to the CBA and being a RFA.

A Hughes trade could maybe get McKenna and a Misa player. Two young stud players/centers or maybe even more after the draft lottery.
Do you think he will be worth the #1 overall?

 

[kanucks25]

Who is the core?
EP - MIA
Hughes - Injured
Demko - retired now?

Is the core 28 yr old Boeser who hasn't scored 10 goals in the last 40 games?
Garland and his whopping 37 pts?

Hughes could have 150 pts and there still isn't enough players ON THIS TEAM.

You HOPE Willander can be a #3or 4 dman, he has never played at any pro level
Lekkimaki needs some one to pass him the puck
Chytil is one hit away from retirement.

This team right now has only two regular roster players under 26 yrs old, that isn't young. Any others are getting under 10 min and periodic appearances, not close to core players.

How do you convince Hughes to play for another 4 or 5 years without ever having a cup run? Especially if he can sign with any cup contending team in 2 years? The Canucks can't out bid any team. With the cap increase Hughes will sign a Mathews type contract, 4/5 yrs at 18+ million then the retirement contract at 20+ mil.
His family love him as much or more than any fan base. Do you think he really wants to do interviews with this team for the next two years? He doesn't even summer here.

Why do some fans think this team cannot win without him? What makes some fans think they are winning now? The team has more losses than wins and has been that way every year but last season. And that was with multiple players having the years of their careers, that doesn't happen every year.

Why do some fans think he wants to be here even now? The only reason he is was due to the CBA and being a RFA.

A Hughes trade could maybe get McKenna and a Misa player. Two young stud players/centers or maybe even more after the draft lottery.
Do you think he will be worth the #1 overall?

The best chance of success this franchise has in the short-mid term is with Hughes staying and Pettersson regaining his form.

I would rather wait to see if Pettersson can figure his shit out and go from there, even if that means losing trade value on both.

I don't blame others for wanting to trade both and start over right now but if you go that route you are guaranteeing that we will not be a serious contender within the next 6-7 years, and who knows if we will be after that because not all rebuilds work out.

 

[rypper]

Yes if the GM made all the right signings, trades and draft picks it was possible to win but you can say that about almost any team.

We're dealing with a lot, and I mean a lot of hypotheticals here so we can just agree to disagree.

I don't even think they needed to make all the right moves, they just needed to make some more then the walking hand grenade Jim Benning.

But it's ancient history now.

 

[Intangibos]

There's a literal grand canyon separating the two.

You could make an argument that a below average GM is worse to have than an unbelievably bad GM because in any city except this one the unbelievably bad GM gets fired within a couple years while the below average GM is in office forever

 

[theguardianII]

The best chance of success this franchise has in the short-mid term is with Hughes staying and Pettersson regaining his form.

I would rather wait to see if Pettersson can figure his shit out and go from there, even if that means losing trade value on both.

I don't blame others for wanting to trade both and start over right now but if you go that route you are guaranteeing that we will not be a serious contender within the next 6-7 years, and who knows if we will be after that because not all rebuilds work out.

Your opinion was shared by three generations of fans and 50 years, the first two are dying now. The third are mostly in their 40's & 50's.

Pettersson will never undo the last year of the team's best shot in a decade or how does management take back all the criticism they have stated publicly?
The coach is constantly running him down.

IF Pettersson did stay and didn't, as demonstrated by the last full year and a bit more, then the cost to remove him from the team becomes excessive, more than anything Benning or Allvin have done so far.

IMO the only hope is Tocchet gets fired and the "new" coach should get a chance to see if he can fix Pettersson. But if that doesn't work then he becomes an anchor that will cost the team another decade of not doing anything.

Serious contender for what? Do you think they are now?
How do you come up with 6 or 7 years? Canuck history? They have never done a rebuild.

Two players do not make a team, not even McDavid and Draistl can.

Hughes is gone in 2027, even Edmonton will be able to sign him to 18 million in three years let alone his brother's team. If he goes anywhere else he is just a really good player that doesn't have the weight of the team on his shoulders alone.

 

[kanucks25]

then the cost to remove him from the team becomes excessive, more than anything Benning or Allvin have done so far.

You don't need to pay to trade him if you're going to rebuild, you just keep him here and let him play out his contract.

Serious contender for what? Do you think they are now?
How do you come up with 6 or 7 years? Canuck history? They have never done a rebuild.

How quickly do you think they would have a chance of becoming a real contender if they traded Hughes and Pettersson right now? It would take years, 6-7 is just an estimate, and that's if the rebuild works out as planned.

 

[theguardianII]

You don't need to pay to trade him if you're going to rebuild, you just keep him here and let him play out his contract.



How quickly do you think they would have a chance of becoming a real contender if they traded Hughes and Pettersson right now? It would take years, 6-7 is just an estimate, and that's if the rebuild works out as planned.

Selling Pettersson, getting that example of frustration out of the room would be a positive.
Hughes trade is not a scorched earth. The team wins just as much when he is playing as not.

If the team has a solid defence, good goalie and good bottom 8 or 9 they are close especially if they added two stud centers.
The team would have loads of cap space to sign some veteran FA's of character and be able to trade for a scoring winger to play top six along with Lekkerimaki if he works out.

No Hughes, No Pettersson isn't any worse than now.
Now no Miller, Boeser in another massive slump but even he might be better with a young 20 year old center(s)

While my thought of getting Misa and Mckenna of the two McKenna might be the more realistic. Then the team has two or three players under 26 yrs old.
I think they could do a build in the time lines of Tampa, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Toronto.

Does anyone look at the ages of cup winners? Most of the top winners had star players under 23 yrs old but had a solid supporting cast and goal tending. But those teams were contenders when those players were barely in their 20's and well under 24 yrs old.

What would you think if the signed Boeser to a 8 yr 9 million dollar contract? Demko to another 5 mil for 5 years, Hughes to a 4 year 20 million dollar contract with a follow up of 25 million? Sign Garland to a 6/7 yr 6 million dollars, by that time Lekkerimaki will need a 6+++ mil deal and Willander ditto.
That would take all but the last two into their mid to late 30's.
How many cups do you think they would compete for?
Who is the core? One player does not make a team, neither do two.

Do a chart with player, their cap hits on lines and see who fits where in 2 years based on the players here now.
Even next year. Even if EP40 rebounds. Remember they have had better for a longer period of time without a sniff of success or being a contender.

Sorry, after 6 decades of mostly useless hope trust is thin and fragile. The last 10 years have been brutal the way the fans are treated.

 

[Hodgy]

You could make an argument that a below average GM is worse to have than an unbelievably bad GM because in any city except this one the unbelievably bad GM gets fired within a couple years while the below average GM is in office forever

You also end up bottoming out better and quicker with an unbelievable bad GM. And we saw that in Vancouver, we just had bad lottery luck and our ownership didn’t fire the unbelievably bad GM when they should have.

 

[kanucks25]

Hughes trade is not a scorched earth. The team wins just as much when he is playing as not.

No Hughes, No Pettersson isn't any worse than now.

mmk lol i think we're done here

 

[Hodgy]

Even if ownership/management keeps refusing to rebuild, sooner or later the rebuild finds you. If teams could simply keep trading futures for success, or "trade their way" out of a downward slide, they would all do it.

Yes, this is absolutely true. Most organizations, of course, don’t do it willingly though. And it’s why the overwhelming majority of tanks/rebuilds are unintentional initially. This, of course, leads to a lower success rate since you the rebuild is usually, at least initially, not intended, so the team doesn’t acquire futures as they should, or manage the cap well long term, which leads to a longer and less effective rebuild.

The other type of rebuild we see fail a lot is the intentional “quick” retool.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Yes, Benning was THE worst.

But Allvin is quickly catching up. Pretty sure the OEL buyout trumps anything Elmer did except trading for OEL and that EP contract might yet eclipse Eriksson's

Nah. Thats just you being silly again.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The difference is that the core was obviously done when Benning took over.

The "you have to try to win with the Sedins" idea was asinine because there was simply no way you could win with them.

That's not true in this case because the core is not old at all. Assuming Willander and Lekk are in the lineup at the start of next year, we'll be a pretty young team on average.

You cant assume they will be in the line-up unless you are not writing analysis of the situation but are just listing stuff you would like to have happen.

You must appease Hughes because the only chance we have at winning over the next like 6-7 years is with him in the lineup. If you're not doing what you can do to keep him, you might as well trade him and scorch the earth.

And that they will do.
A short term view is what our organization is specialized at.

And after they are done with this plan, there will be some other reason why we just cant afford to do anything but push for the playoffs

 

[Orr4Norris]

I always had the suspicion that he would leave anyways, since the weird 6 year "semi-bridge" deal. And when Luke Hughes was drafted by the Devils, the places started to fall into place. The chance to play with your two bros is too great to ignore.

Just trade him to New Jersey and be done with. He'll be a UFA at 27 years old, and it's unlikely he would sign a long term contract here with the construction.

Maybe the new management by then (post Allvin), the Canucks will actually rebuild fully instead of this "rebuild on the fly" that this organization has done since the Sedins retired.

Is it though? I’m super tight with my siblings…never thought it would be cool to work together lol.

I think this gets overblown a lot. I’m sure at some point they would love to play together. But that could happen at All-Star game/team USA/later on in their careers.

QH would be a significant roadblock to Luke’s career. Luke would never be able to be the PP1 guy, or the go to guy for offence if his older brother is there. He’ll always be in the shadow. This in turn would cut into his potential career earnings. And the Hughes’s family is smart. They absolutely know this.

And then you’re talking about signing a seven year instead of an eight year deal which will almost certainly be near the max in terms of dollars per season. Also, he would have to turn down the ability to sign one year earlier and lock in. When you’re talking about a contract that will be well over 100 mil, that’s a huge risk.

Not saying they will never play together. I just don’t buy that it is as big concern as people make it out to be.

I think the far bigger concern is whether the Canucks are looking like they will at least be a Cup contender in the future, if not at the time of signing.

 

[kanucks25]

You cant assume they will be in the line-up unless you are not writing analysis of the situation but are just listing stuff you would like to have happen.

The point I was making in replying to the post I quoted was this team is not old.

At the start of next year, all the core players will be under 30 and only a few of the other regular players will be exactly 30 (Sherwood, Lankinen, Blueger).

Myers is the only "old" player on this team.

Over the next few years the Canucks are likely going to infuse more youth into the lineup via Lekk, Willander, D-Petey and perhaps a few others in the bottom-6.

That is not an old team, not at all.

 

[Ernie]

I disagree pretty hard there. The Canucks with the twins made the playoffs in 14/15 and could have easily beat Calgary if not for Willie and 1,2,3,4.

Making the right draft pick in 14 and 16 and you have young players on the come to supplement the twins. Without Jim Benning's disastrous free agent signings and trades you could transiston the twins to the second line and have the next wave take the lead. Instead of slumping them on an island with Sutter, Megna, etc.

It's hard to blame this on Benning / Aquilini when Linden was the team president and responsible for setting the direction of the team. Unlike the Sedins, he chose to learn on the job and as a result made a lot of mistakes.

Obvously in comparison to Benning he is well spoken and so avoids a lot of the heat, but he deserves equal blame for denying the Sedins a chance to win the cup.

 

[F A N]

I disagree pretty hard there. The Canucks with the twins made the playoffs in 14/15 and could have easily beat Calgary if not for Willie and 1,2,3,4.

Agreed.

Making the right draft pick in 14 and 16 and you have young players on the come to supplement the twins. Without Jim Benning's disastrous free agent signings and trades you could transiston the twins to the second line and have the next wave take the lead. Instead of slumping them on an island with Sutter, Megna, etc.

I think when it comes to relying on draft picks as a strategy you can't rely on the best case scenario: that is that you can't expect a draft pick (aside from the #1 overall pick) to step into the lineup. The Sedins retired in 17-18 but outside of 14-15, the Sedins have been 2nd line producers. Henrik for example put up 55, 50, and 50 points his last three seasons.

Take the 2014 draft. Who is the right pick? I don't think any of the guys you're thinking of were ready to take the lead in Sedins' last year here. Even more so when you're talking about guys from the 2016 draft. Tkachuk stepped right in and was a good player but if he and say Nylander/Ehlers were tasked to carry the 1st line I don't think they would have been ready. You can look at Calgary's 17-18 lineup where they missed the playoffs. They had much better young pieces in place at the time.