me2
Go ahead foot
So long as they are dirt cheap to acquire and not expected to be core players I'm ok with this. If it is just tinkering around a grand plan, whatever. If it is the grand plan, v they can go and....themselves.
Management Discussion | Just Have a Plan
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So long as they are dirt cheap to acquire and not expected to be core players I'm ok with this. If it is just tinkering around a grand plan, whatever. If it is the grand plan, v they can go and....themselves.
Long arsed post incoming. Full disclosure, I know Rutherford took the time to answer almost everything to the best of his abilities and I know he probably has a bit of a muzzle on so full credit to him for that; but here's my take on things stated today.
Rebuild vs Retool: Ok, so we tried to retool in like 2013. Benning was hired; we tried a retool on the fly for 2-3 years. We then tried to do it again in like 2020. Now we hear we are going to do it again. Why? With the 28th rated prospect pool in the entire league and bottom 5 for like 6 of the last 8 years. Look at Anaheim since 2019. LA since 2018. How do they look? Now look at Montreal over the last 18 months post covid SCF finals. The amount of rebuilding they have done in 3 years or less vs what this team has done to retool since 2014 is absolutely insane. We don't just go pick up and acquire NHL ready players and pretend it's ok that we don't have actual youth and prospects in development; because depth and the lack of depth is what killed us from 2009-2013 when we were the best team in the league.
Core vs Supplementary Players: Our core has been the core since 2018/2019. Since then we have finished bottom 10 in the league almost exclusively. That's about 5 years with the same people with what success? We can win with this core if we just add supplementary players? Kind of seems that we've tried that for half a decade with zero success. the last GM that managed to trade and sign quality supplementary players was Gillis and those were like Torres, Higgins, Malhotra, Lapierre. At what point in time does this core need to be looked at and fixed? Rutherford has seen this core in person for a year but also as a former GM for a few years as well. He knows it isn't working but won't change things.
Picks vs Prospects: Picks are GOLD. We have zero depth and the 28th overall rated prospect pool. We constantly trade picks because why not. Dickinson needs to go? Add a pick. Hey lets spend a 3rd to get him but a 2nd to get rid of him. The issue with this mentality of buying 20-21 year old prospects who may not be working out is crazy. Dach cost the 13th OA pick while our 9th oa pick and some single year cap hits net us OEL and Garland. What we need is well known to every single GM in the league and acquiring those players like Johnson, Dobson, Nemec etc are going to cost us FAR more than the single draft pick we would use to draft them at their position. This comment makes and made absolutely zero sense.
Teams will NOT do the Canucks any favours at all. Oh you need an RHD that isn't working out here? Hmm...we'll need something back plus a pick that cool?
We also then STILL have zero credible or quality depth in development because we have not drafted them because we have expended our draft picks on Veys and Clendennings. This comment should have been shouted down and absolutely called out for the short sighted view it is
Buyout vs Retention: Buyouts are insane. Buying out JT Miller right now would see the Canucks paying a MINIMUM of $1.5 million until 2037. OEL $2.4 million until 2031. Garland $1.9 million through 2029. If we are to retain that $2.4 million on OEL we have half the league asking about him and we are only retaining that $2.4 million until 26/27 saving 4 years of cap space issues. Miller? $6.5 million miller is now wanted by everyone in the league and saves us 7 years of cap issues. The absolute INSANITY of suggesting this as a viable option for any of our higher priced players is shamefully bad business management. That retention vs buyout dead cap makes the players we claim as being unmovable more than moveable but highly valuable. VS adding years upon years of dead cap. I don't get it at all and the suggestion of it makes me nauseous both as a fan but also a a business owner. Even Myers as a buyout is adding .333 million to our cap for an additional year vs retaining say .5 million or even 1 million and making him a viable asset for teams to want to trade for.
This is insulting and I think Boeser looks like potential target of a buyout and wouldn't that be peachy
Trades vs Cap and Assets: He said he can't trade. Contracts are impossible to move. Can't do it. No cap space. But he signed 3 forwards to $20 million worth of contracts thus ensuring he can't do anything. Wearing handcuffs of his own making. Our best assets right now are in order Horvat, Kuzmenko and Schenn. Horvat would bring back a quality return, Kuzmenko is found money and teams are rumoured to be all over him. That's the kind of move you make for the future regardless of how good he's playing. You make the trade and circle back in July. Schenn as well. He is at the helm of what could be the kick starting of a fast turn around for this team but will most likely wait until the absolute last minute. There's a part of me that weeps at the idea of Kuzmenko pricing himself out of Vancouver and then having his rights flipped for nothing.
I don't wanna lose any of them but for the long term future of this team, the cap space needed to facilitate long term moves and Rutherford's statements of "the cap will go up so it won't be an issue in a few years" it has to happen. 2 of those assets need to move which would allow us some small amount of retention on other assets to ensure better returns. The saddest part of everything today is that this took place when we should have been honouring Odjick. But this is only followed closely by how insultingly short sighted and contradictory every statement Rutherford made was.
TLDR: Minor surgery now major. Core is great but we need major changes. Can't make trades due to cap but the cap isn't an issue because it will go up. Have no depth or assets but will look to bargain bin shop again.
Like...what the absolute hell, we literally just did this for almost 8 years. Can't we just stop being so short sighted and actually do what literally every fan of the team, of the sport, every player and analyst and manager in the league knows needs to be done?
Rebuild vs Retool: Ok, so we tried to retool in like 2013. Benning was hired; we tried a retool on the fly for 2-3 years. We then tried to do it again in like 2020. Now we hear we are going to do it again. Why? With the 28th rated prospect pool in the entire league and bottom 5 for like 6 of the last 8 years. Look at Anaheim since 2019. LA since 2018. How do they look? Now look at Montreal over the last 18 months post covid SCF finals. The amount of rebuilding they have done in 3 years or less vs what this team has done to retool since 2014 is absolutely insane. We don't just go pick up and acquire NHL ready players and pretend it's ok that we don't have actual youth and prospects in development; because depth and the lack of depth is what killed us from 2009-2013 when we were the best team in the league.
Core vs Supplementary Players: Our core has been the core since 2018/2019. Since then we have finished bottom 10 in the league almost exclusively. That's about 5 years with the same people with what success? We can win with this core if we just add supplementary players? Kind of seems that we've tried that for half a decade with zero success. the last GM that managed to trade and sign quality supplementary players was Gillis and those were like Torres, Higgins, Malhotra, Lapierre. At what point in time does this core need to be looked at and fixed? Rutherford has seen this core in person for a year but also as a former GM for a few years as well. He knows it isn't working but won't change things.
Picks vs Prospects: Picks are GOLD. We have zero depth and the 28th overall rated prospect pool. We constantly trade picks because why not. Dickinson needs to go? Add a pick. Hey lets spend a 3rd to get him but a 2nd to get rid of him. The issue with this mentality of buying 20-21 year old prospects who may not be working out is crazy. Dach cost the 13th OA pick while our 9th oa pick and some single year cap hits net us OEL and Garland. What we need is well known to every single GM in the league and acquiring those players like Johnson, Dobson, Nemec etc are going to cost us FAR more than the single draft pick we would use to draft them at their position. This comment makes and made absolutely zero sense.
Teams will NOT do the Canucks any favours at all. Oh you need an RHD that isn't working out here? Hmm...we'll need something back plus a pick that cool?
We also then STILL have zero credible or quality depth in development because we have not drafted them because we have expended our draft picks on Veys and Clendennings. This comment should have been shouted down and absolutely called out for the short sighted view it is
Buyout vs Retention: Buyouts are insane. Buying out JT Miller right now would see the Canucks paying a MINIMUM of $1.5 million until 2037. OEL $2.4 million until 2031. Garland $1.9 million through 2029. If we are to retain that $2.4 million on OEL we have half the league asking about him and we are only retaining that $2.4 million until 26/27 saving 4 years of cap space issues. Miller? $6.5 million miller is now wanted by everyone in the league and saves us 7 years of cap issues. The absolute INSANITY of suggesting this as a viable option for any of our higher priced players is shamefully bad business management. That retention vs buyout dead cap makes the players we claim as being unmovable more than moveable but highly valuable. VS adding years upon years of dead cap. I don't get it at all and the suggestion of it makes me nauseous both as a fan but also a a business owner. Even Myers as a buyout is adding .333 million to our cap for an additional year vs retaining say .5 million or even 1 million and making him a viable asset for teams to want to trade for.
This is insulting and I think Boeser looks like potential target of a buyout and wouldn't that be peachy
Trades vs Cap and Assets: He said he can't trade. Contracts are impossible to move. Can't do it. No cap space. But he signed 3 forwards to $20 million worth of contracts thus ensuring he can't do anything. Wearing handcuffs of his own making. Our best assets right now are in order Horvat, Kuzmenko and Schenn. Horvat would bring back a quality return, Kuzmenko is found money and teams are rumoured to be all over him. That's the kind of move you make for the future regardless of how good he's playing. You make the trade and circle back in July. Schenn as well. He is at the helm of what could be the kick starting of a fast turn around for this team but will most likely wait until the absolute last minute. There's a part of me that weeps at the idea of Kuzmenko pricing himself out of Vancouver and then having his rights flipped for nothing.
I don't wanna lose any of them but for the long term future of this team, the cap space needed to facilitate long term moves and Rutherford's statements of "the cap will go up so it won't be an issue in a few years" it has to happen. 2 of those assets need to move which would allow us some small amount of retention on other assets to ensure better returns. The saddest part of everything today is that this took place when we should have been honouring Odjick. But this is only followed closely by how insultingly short sighted and contradictory every statement Rutherford made was.
TLDR: Minor surgery now major. Core is great but we need major changes. Can't make trades due to cap but the cap isn't an issue because it will go up. Have no depth or assets but will look to bargain bin shop again.
Like...what the absolute hell, we literally just did this for almost 8 years. Can't we just stop being so short sighted and actually do what literally every fan of the team, of the sport, every player and analyst and manager in the league knows needs to be done?
Paperbags will be the headwear of choice at Canucks home games going forward
I mean, that’s where we’d be if we were receiving the sort of goaltending we got in any of the last 8 years.
I have no doubts that our 31st place .879 goaltending has caught them off guard.
We essentially did a full rebuild between 2015 and 2020, even if that wasn’t the intent.
There were stupid contracts and some assets bled in stupid trades but we crashed to the bottom of the league for 5 years, harvested a pile of top-10 picks, and completely turned the roster over in that period.
The intent might have been re-tool but the actual result was a tank and a rebuild.
JR did say one reasonable thing at his “press conference”
… he said he is doing a crap job so far
… he said he is doing a crap job so far
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Killer Orcas
Registered User
Didn't see but if he did thank goodness even they realize what they have done is not correct.
I might be crazy but I thought that was a decent job by JR. Pretty clear he doesn’t like the team. Pretty clear he’ll buy players out this summer. That’s exciting.
me2
Go ahead foot
I don't see Rutherford admitting to his mistakes after just 1 season. He won't buyout Miller or Boeser. He'll buyout Benning's mistakes instead, he can blame shift on those.
Just A Bit Outside
Playoffs??!
- Mar 6, 2010
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Look at the buyout structure and penalties associated with the obvious targets.
Now look at that same number for retention.
Buyouts add extra years of dead cap vs retention that may help turn those targets in to viable trade assets.
If we buyout Miller, we'd be paying a minimum of $1.5 million until 2037. OEL, $2.4 million through 2031. If you retain $2.4 million in OEL or $1.5 million on Miller, every team in the league is asking about them and you save at+ years of dead cap
Another year with Myers or buyout with retention I vote buyout every time.
Buying out OEL needs to happen you can’t have a guy like that on your hockey team. That guy is like water on wood- rot.
There is zero cap advantage to buying out Myers.
Being able to self assess is an important traits. They are now in major surgery mode, so we’ll see what the hell that actually entails
Slapshot_11
Registered User
- Aug 30, 2006
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So they are really doing what JB are doing and trying to get other teams failed projects... unbelievable. Its clear this is what blueberry boy wants
Dont want picks because it could be 4-5 years.. getting picks is better because atleast you get cap space to weaponize and can use those picks to get actual decent players via trade instead of failed prospects
Where is the chipmunk??? Why is jr doing the talking
Dont want picks because it could be 4-5 years.. getting picks is better because atleast you get cap space to weaponize and can use those picks to get actual decent players via trade instead of failed prospects
Where is the chipmunk??? Why is jr doing the talking
and his leadership has been like poison. So I’ll take some cap punishment to get this “leader” away from our team. Who can build a team with guys like Myers and OEL? Would you bring young players in when Oliver Flamingo is out there teaching them how to block shots?
Gut the rot. If I gotta feel pain then I don’t want to see these chumps on my team. Gotta respect what Minny did. It hurt but at least they have f***in balls.
Myers should be fairly early to trade with his $1 million salary for next year.
There is zero chance of a buyout. Buying him out actually costs the team more than just sending him to Abbotsford.
LickTheEnvelope
Weird time to be a Canucks fan 2024
A not very well done tank and rebuild.
Now we are back to having to do it again, they refuse, and it looks like we are going to get another poorly done rebuild.
In the end it was a fairly average tank and rebuild given how well some of the picks turned out.
Teams don’t do a second tank/rebuild from the position we’re in with the players we have. It’s actually ridiculous to be haranguing management about it when there isn’t a single owner in the NHL that would be signing off on it.
if ONE player having an off year is the difference from being a playoff team to one of the worst teams in the league then you have some major issues with the make up of the roster.
I feel like I should go back to this whole idea of how this management is going for the age gap thing.
The age gap thing is far more absurd and stupid than simply getting younger players. The whole idea of the age gap was devised because the 2011 team had a bunch of vets that were 30+ and the young players were like 21ish. So the idea was to plug in the gap so there were players in all age in the team. Like why the f*** that is important is not even worth rehashing because it’s not important at all.
The whole thing was beyond stupid and nothing we are doing is even close to that.
The age gap thing is far more absurd and stupid than simply getting younger players. The whole idea of the age gap was devised because the 2011 team had a bunch of vets that were 30+ and the young players were like 21ish. So the idea was to plug in the gap so there were players in all age in the team. Like why the f*** that is important is not even worth rehashing because it’s not important at all.
The whole thing was beyond stupid and nothing we are doing is even close to that.
If you took any team in the NHL and gave them .879 goaltending they are going to suck.
Look what happened to Seattle last year. Turns out they actually weren’t that bad when not getting historically terrible goaltending.
We’d be somewhere around the playoff bubble right now if Demko was playing at the level of 2020-22. Or we were getting what Markstrom provided 2018-2020.
There are obviously some major issues here but the tantrum fans are having is actually blowing my mind.
LickTheEnvelope
Weird time to be a Canucks fan 2024
Teams don't rebuild from bottom 5 prospect pool + cap maxed + not even close to playoffs?
I gotta disagree with you there MS.
Having a couple of early 20s superstars and a bunch of just turning 30 bad contracts isn't enough.
not true at all, you're looking at this in a very flawed way. The way the Canucks roster is designed relies heavy on out of this world top notch goaltending because there is no defence or defensive structure with the forward group. This is a massive flaw with the team make up. Many teams get into the playoffs with weak goaltending because their defensive play or D group can make up for a weaker goalie. This is just a poorly constructed team and its bonkers this new management group doubled down on this core group.
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