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MAF

plaidchuck said:
If you don’t go by pure stat lines you can reshuffle these top all time lists forever. You could drop Roy and say he was on stacked teams, drop Brodeur since he benefited from the trap and dead puck era, move Hasek and Lundqvist up since they dragged pretty trash teams to the cup finals, move Jim Carey up for having one of the highest save pcts in the 80s :laugh:
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A lot of this. Team construction/system can certainly make or break a goalie.
 
Ugene Magic said:
Muzz has those two rings because of a really stacked team whom kept the shots down.

That 2nd cup he only played 11 games, Fleury got them through the tougher matchups early on.

That 1 year outlier 2 cups in his rookie year is his whole legacy.
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His whole legacy is putting up better numbers than Fleury in both playoff runs and making it possible for Fleury to call himself a 3-time Cup winner, all in 1 rookie season? Cool!
 
SEALBound said:
I'm sad he never got his goal or his fight.
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He should sign a 1 game contract next year and pull a Brad Tolliver

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Ugene Magic said:
Muzz has those two rings because of a really stacked team whom kept the shots down.

That 2nd cup he only played 11 games, Fleury got them through the tougher matchups early on.

That 1 year outlier 2 cups in his rookie year is his whole legacy.
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And Flopper’s is a Lidstrom shot away from going 0-3 in the Final as a starter.
 
MAF was the victim of some poor goalie coach hires. When they tried to change his game, it screwed him up big time. It was the Mike Bales hire that brought him back to his old self. Him losing his job to Vokoun is much more of an indictment on who they brought in to change him, than it is on MAF.
I agree that he probably isn’t top 5 all time (mostly because of those few years), but to say he isn’t top 5 of his era is insanity. Most people here just are much harder on him because that lull in his game because of coaching, probably cost us a Cup or 2.
 
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Ogelthorpe said:
MAF was the victim of some poor goalie coach hires. When they tried to change his game, it screwed him up big time. It was the Mike Bales hire that brought him back to his old self. Him losing his job to Vokoun is much more of an indictment on who they brought in to change him, than it is on MAF.
I agree that he probably isn’t top 5 all time (mostly because of those few years), but to say he isn’t top 5 of his era is insanity. Most people here just are much harder on him because that lull in his game because of coaching, probably cost us a Cup or 2.
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Top 5 of his era is a much better and fairer discussion, because then you can discuss things like team structure and scoring and coaching, as well as longevity and such. I don’t agree that he’s top 5 if his era, but I think there’s a good argument for him there to be made.

Stuff like “top 5 of all time” is pretty cringe though. That’s like the kids now who are going to sat AO > Gretzky. :laugh:
 
There are so many tremendous topics where multiple things can be true, but the internet has really ruined good conversation in favor of NO.. I AM RIGHT!

Multiple things can be true:
- Amazing career and judging by NHL standards, he's an easy shoe-in for HOF
- He struggled in the playoffs at times and was not a clutch goalie
- Those struggles still do not take away the work he did in 09 and 17. Or even 2008/20whatever w/ Vegas to get to the Finals and lose.

From all accounts he was a great locker room guy and a great charitable man. At one point, he and Niemi had the worst save percentage in the new era playoffs. However he made it work in 09 and parts of 17.


This thread could be so awesome debating the good and bad of MAF, but instead we have to go into definitive statements right from the jump. Why not analyze some stuff and then form an opinion even if you agree/disagree with others?
 
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Ogelthorpe said:
MAF was the victim of some poor goalie coach hires. When they tried to change his game, it screwed him up big time. It was the Mike Bales hire that brought him back to his old self. Him losing his job to Vokoun is much more of an indictment on who they brought in to change him, than it is on MAF.
I agree that he probably isn’t top 5 all time (mostly because of those few years), but to say he isn’t top 5 of his era is insanity. Most people here just are much harder on him because that lull in his game because of coaching, probably cost us a Cup or 2.
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I've always said that it's no coincidence the MAF's worst years were all when DB was the head coach. Once DF was fired, he bounced back and won two more Cups, got Vegas to the SCF and won the Vezina.
 
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ColePens said:
There are so many tremendous topics where multiple things can be true, but the internet has really ruined good conversation in favor of NO.. I AM RIGHT!

Multiple things can be true:
- Amazing career and judging by NHL standards, he's an easy shoe-in for HOF
- He struggled in the playoffs at times and was not a clutch goalie
- Those struggles still do not take away the work he did in 09 and 17. Or even 2008/20whatever w/ Vegas to get to the Finals and lose.

From all accounts he was a great locker room guy and a great charitable man. At one point, he and Niemi had the worst save percentage in the new era playoffs. However he made it work in 09 and parts of 17.


This thread could be so awesome debating the good and bad of MAF, but instead we have to go into definitive statements right from the jump. Why not analyze some stuff and then form an opinion even if you agree/disagree with others?
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You want to have a nuanced conversation instead of taking a hard line stance and dying on that hill no matter what? That’s not how we do things around here.

Fleury had some bad playoff runs, some average ones, and some good ones. Some here hyper focus on the bad and refuse to acknowledge the good.

He is the Ron Francis of goalies to me. Incredible longevity, only seemed to get better with age, and respected around the league on and off the ice.
 
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Those years of playoff flops were so aggravating, so many what ifs we had average goaltending. His highs were so high, but those lows were so so low.
 
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SomeDude said:
You want to have a nuanced conversation instead of taking a hard line stance and dying on that hill no matter what? That’s not how we do things around here.

Fleury had some bad playoff runs, some average ones, and some good ones. Some here hyper focus on the bad and refuse to acknowledge the good.

He is the Ron Francis of goalies to me. Incredible longevity, only seemed to get better with age, and respected around the league on and off the ice.
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Yeah I am looking at like those long-term guys (the Francis/Recchi/etc) when I see MAF. Truth is.. I don't know where I stand on evaluating his career. I feel like I sit in the middle and haven't looked back at other goalies careers. Like what if I reviewed the top 10 goalies all time vs. maybe the next 10 after that. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere between 5-15 there are goalies who had playoff blowups like MAF did. Im not sure. I didn't do the research. But i'd sure love a discussion about it! :laugh:
 
For all his warts he was very consistent in the regular season and healthy which is something we took for granted and haven’t had since 2017.
 
ColePens said:
Yeah I am looking at like those long-term guys (the Francis/Recchi/etc) when I see MAF. Truth is.. I don't know where I stand on evaluating his career. I feel like I sit in the middle and haven't looked back at other goalies careers. Like what if I reviewed the top 10 goalies all time vs. maybe the next 10 after that. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere between 5-15 there are goalies who had playoff blowups like MAF did. Im not sure. I didn't do the research. But i'd sure love a discussion about it! :laugh:
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Every goalie has had low points in the playoffs. The greats obviously have a lot less.

People who hate him refuse to take into account how outclassed many of those Bylsma teams were. His system got caved in the playoffs after 2009. It’s almost like other teams went easy on him in the regular season just to bait him into doing the same thing every playoff so the Pens weren’t a serious threat.

That isn’t to say MAF wasn’t the main reason for some of those losses. He was downright awful for a bit there, but there are some people who insist the Pens win more Cups with any other goalie which I cannot buy. Bylsma held them back just as much as anyone else, injuries screwed them one way or another like 4 years, but for some reason it seems like it’s impossible for some to accept there can be more than one reason that a team doesn’t win a Cup every year.

His career playoff save % was .911 which isn’t bad. It’s a little above average which tracks when you look back at individual seasons. Some were horrible with .850 and others he was dominant with .933. It was feast or famine.

Speaking of goalies who have gotten too much heat, it is insane that Patrick Lalime got a rep as a choker. That guy has top 10 all-time playoff stats. .926 sv% and 1.77 GAA. I remember him letting in a couple softies which didn’t help the optics, but that looks more like a good goalie playing on a crappy team which checks out with those Sens teams. Everyone needs a scapegoat.
 
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