MacKinnon/Makar vs McDavid/Nurse

[KevinFinnerty]

If we're looking at contract and age, Cale might be the most valuable piece here. I'm trying really hard to think of the last time a 22 year old defenseman has shown as much as Cale has and I don't think anyone has from my time following hockey (1995+).

We can look ALL the way back to 2021 where a 22 year old Adam Fox just won the Norris with being a beast offensively and a f***ing superstar DEFENSIVELY

 

[avsfan9]

We can look ALL the way back to 2021 where a 22 year old Adam Fox just won the Norris with being a beast offensively and a f***ing superstar DEFENSIVELY

Adam Fox had a great year and is a great defensman but if Makar had played a full year he wins the Norris, there is no doubt about it. There is not a Gm in the league that take Fox over Makar if given a chance and that’s no disrespect to Fox. I’d go as far as to say Makar is a tier above Fox but that’s my opinion and I admit I haven’t seen a lot of Fox but I’ve watched enough to know Makar is flat out better

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Adam Fox had a great year and is a great defensman but if Makar had played a full year he wins the Norris, there is no doubt about it. There is not a Gm in the league that take Fox over Makar if given a chance and that’s no disrespect to Fox. I’d go as far as to say Makar is a tier above Fox but that’s my opinion and I admit I haven’t seen a lot of Fox but I’ve watched enough to know Makar is flat out better

There’s a lot of doubt about that. I’d still pick Fox.

 

[KevinFinnerty]

Adam Fox had a great year and is a great defensman but if Makar had played a full year he wins the Norris, there is no doubt about it. There is not a Gm in the league that take Fox over Makar if given a chance and that’s no disrespect to Fox. I’d go as far as to say Makar is a tier above Fox but that’s my opinion and I admit I haven’t seen a lot of Fox but I’ve watched enough to know Makar is flat out better

I’ll say this, dead ass honestly- Makar is better offensively. Fox is better defensively

 

[avsfan9]

There’s a lot of doubt about that. I’d still pick Fox.

Makar had 3 less points in 11 less games and he helped his team actually make the playoffs. Makar was the better player and had the better season but games played is what cost him the Norris.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Makar had 3 less points in 11 less games and he helped his team actually make the playoffs. Makar was the better player and had the better season but games played is what cost him the Norris.

Fox is better defensively than offensively, he isn’t an offensive defenseman

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Makar had 3 less points in 11 less games and he helped his team actually make the playoffs. Makar was the better player and had the better season but games played is what cost him the Norris.

I disagree. The Avs are a better team than the NYR. It’s nonsense to give Makar credit for making the playoffs when they are clearly a playoff team with or without him. It’s also unfair to punish Fox.
Makar is better offensively but Fox is better defensively which is why the voters have the edge to him. Fox deserved the award and likely would have won it anyways.

 

[avsfan9]

I disagree. The Avs are a better team than the NYR. It’s nonsense to give Makar credit for making the playoffs when they are clearly a playoff team with or without him. It’s also unfair to punish Fox.
Makar is better offensively but Fox is better defensively which is why the voters have the edge to him. Fox deserved the award and likely would have won it anyways.

We will agree to disagree. If Makar doesn’t play with the avs they probably don’t make the playoffs. If Fox doesn’t play for the rangers they still don’t make the playoffs

 

[snipes]

You have to be a pretty big homer to think Nurse is actually better than Makar defensively.
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Makar is a better player than Nurse but not by as wide of a margin as those shot metric charts necessarily indicate.

Those are the new /60 stat that will become a meme in short order.

Nurse nearly led the entire league in +/- at +27. While that stat has its flaws as well, to suggest he’s in the bottom 3 percent of all defenders based purely on shot metrics is sophistry.

Those WAR charts are replete with problems using a static sport like baseball as its model, there are salient differences between a fluid and transitional sport like hockey without a defined beginning and end to each play like we see in baseball.

 

[Paul4587]

I think McDavid is comfortably ahead of MacKinnon but this is still an easy choice to go with the Avs duo. Makar is the best dman in the league where as Nurse is realistically a number 2-3 who just got paid number one money due to getting to play with McDavid and Draisaitl.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

We will agree to disagree. If Makar doesn’t play with the avs they probably don’t make the playoffs. If Fox doesn’t play for the rangers they still don’t make the playoffs

Yes. We will agree to disagree.

 

[snipes]

I think McDavid is comfortably ahead of MacKinnon but this is still an easy choice to go with the Avs duo. Makar is the best dman in the league where as Nurse is realistically a number 2-3 who just got paid number one money due to getting to play with McDavid and Draisaitl.

lol

Name 90 D men better than Nurse. This is an absurd take.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Even when it supports the players I root for, I really don’t care about WAR. I don’t believe in that stat.

I use advanced metrics all the time as part of analysis, but most of them require additional context.

 

[Paul4587]

lol

Name 90 D men better than Nurse. This is an absurd take.

Saying he’s a 2-3 puts him in the 30 to 90 range, not that 90 are better than him. I could easily name 50 better.

 

[snipes]

Saying he’s a 2-3 puts him in the 30 to 90 range, not that 90 are better than him. I could easily name 50 better.

Fake news.

 

[Paul4587]

Fake news.

Nope, it’s real.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Comparing Makar to Nurse is like comparing Lidstrom to Wade Belak.

 

[Crookshank]

Totals last year:

McDavid and Nurse = 141 points and +48
MacKinnon and Makar = 109 points and +39

Nurse had double the amount of goals as Makar and 7 more even strength points than Makar (although Makar did play less games). Not saying Nurse is a better player than Makar, as Makar is incredible but it's not this massive gap some are arguing.

The gap between McDavid and MacKinnon appears larger than the gap between Makar and Nurse.

adding up point totals to say who the best players are is like listing goaltenders by SV% to say who the best goalie is. ( in the Habs' case does Jake Allen's loosing record but higher SV% say he is a better goalie last year than Price's winning record?)

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Saying he’s a 2-3 puts him in the 30 to 90 range, not that 90 are better than him. I could easily name 50 better.

Nope, it’s real.

Okay then since you can easily do it, name 50 dmen better than Nurse.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Just how good is Adam Fox? Is he Scott Stevens good?

 

[Avsfan1921]

Makar is a better player than Nurse but not by as wide of a margin as those shot metric charts necessarily indicate.

Those are the new /60 stat that will become a meme in short order.

Nurse nearly led the entire league in +/- at +27. While that stat has its flaws as well, to suggest he’s in the bottom 3 percent of all defenders based purely on shot metrics is sophistry.

Those WAR charts are replete with problems using a static sport like baseball as its model, there are salient differences between a fluid and transitional sport like hockey without a defined beginning and end to each play like we see in baseball.

And Ryan Graves, an offensive minded second pairing caliber defenseman with major defensive holes, led the NHL the previous year. No matter what you think of WAR charts they are absolutely a more accurate representation of what a player is vs +/-. Context is needed when analyzing all stats but to lean on the literal most useless stat while discrediting others seems like a waste of time to me.