Friedman: Mackinnon injury might force Avs to go big game hunting sooner rather than later ( Toews, Horvat)

[Putt Pirate]

Would love to see bo traded just so we can tank 2023.

You are starting well behind the Hawks, Ducks and sharks this season being 25%+ over.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You are starting well behind the Hawks, Ducks and sharks this season being 25%+ over.

Huh? Season is 25%+ over. What a weird way to spin that one. There are still 55-58 games left to be played.

Canucks are 8 pts ahead of the Ducks. 7 on the Blackhawks and 5 on the Sharks.

3-4 wins is the difference and with 55-58 games left, a lot can and will change.

 

[bossram]

Although I don't disagree, unless Necas successfully moves to Centre, they have no 2c coming up the pipeline, no current 2c and will either need to spend major assets to get one with term (if even available) or hope one falls on their lap as a UFA.

As for Horvat, they could afford the re-sign him. KK has a cheap buyout, or could be included in the deal while adding to it. Cap going up will give them space for Aho, TT and Pesce. TT I don't see getting a massive raise from what he makes now. Most players of his calibre signed for what he makes in long term deals. Pesce will get a nice raise, but I doubt he sees more than 6-7m depending on the cap. Do you see Aho getting more than 10-11m?

Yes. Around $10M

He's a 1C and will be re-signing entirely during UFA years. Pesce and TT will get significant raises. And then they need to build out room for a massive Necas raise and Jarvis' second contract. AND they'll need to find another top-four guy to replace Skjei.

I don't see them adding another guy who needs a massive raise soon.

I think their best solution is to move Necas to centre again. It's a lot easier (and cheaper) to find another scoring winger.

 

[PullHard]

Is Toews a big swing at this stage?

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

Yes. Around $10M

He's a 1C and will be re-signing entirely during UFA years. Pesce and TT will get significant raises. And then they need to build out room for a massive Necas raise and Jarvis' second contract. AND they'll need to find another top-four guy to replace Skjei.

I don't see them adding another guy who needs a massive raise soon.

I think their best solution is to move Necas to centre again. It's a lot easier (and cheaper) to find another scoring winger.

TT isn't worth more than 7m, depending on term he could be above or below that number. cap will see a significant increase before their contracts expire to pay for the extra 1-2m they will both get. Skjei I doubt decides to go to UFA and they will either have someone on ELC at that time, or he probably signs for less. Necas will get a nice raise for sure, but if he can't move to centre then they have a more important position to fill.

They only have 54.5 (slightly less) cap assigned to next season, no major contracts until the season after, those are mostly just raises so they need maybe 10-15m of it to cover them all. They can easily afford Bo plus get more pieces. They are sitting pretty right now.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Yes. Around $10M

He's a 1C and will be re-signing entirely during UFA years. Pesce and TT will get significant raises. And then they need to build out room for a massive Necas raise and Jarvis' second contract. AND they'll need to find another top-four guy to replace Skjei.

I don't see them adding another guy who needs a massive raise soon.

I think their best solution is to move Necas to centre again. It's a lot easier (and cheaper) to find another scoring winger.

I don't want to step into your back and forth too much here. The Canes were in on Tkachuk in the Summer (Link) and he would have been the highest paid player on the team presumably for several seasons had it happened. Between that and the rumored pursuit of Laine and Eichel over the past few year, I think the FO feels like the team is missing something up front and is willing to spend, at least cap space, to make it happen. I wouldn't shut the door on a major acquisition, if the stars align. Whether Horvat is that type of piece is a question mark.

 

[bossram]

I don't want to step into your back and forth too much here. The Canes were in on Tkachuk in the Summer (Link) and he would have been the highest paid player on the team presumably for several seasons had it happened. Between that and the rumored pursuit of Laine and Eichel over the past few year, I think the FO feels like the team is missing something up front and is willing to spend, at least cap space, to make it happen. I wouldn't shut the door on a major acquisition, if the stars align. Whether Horvat is that type of piece is a question mark.

Those are not rentals.

Again, as I said in a later post, I don't think the Canes front office hasn't recognized they could use an addition up front. And they have shown a willingness to pay assets to get a player they like (KK, except it was a very bad misfire).

But they have not shown a willingness to pay premium assets for pure rentals. Horvat would be a pure rental for them as I don't see them re-signing him.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Those are not rentals.

Again, as I said in a later post, I don't think the Canes front office hasn't recognized they could use an addition up front. And they have shown a willingness to pay assets to get a player they like (KK, except it was a very bad misfire).

But they have not shown a willingness to pay premium assets for pure rentals. Horvat would be a pure rental for them as I don't see them re-signing him.

The last line is what I was pushing back on. If you believe those rumors to be true, it would point to a club that isn't married to the core group as currently constructed. They've bowed out struggling to score against elite competition 4 playoffs in a row (~1.81 GF/G in those series losses). At a certain point, even the most we like our group decision makers would give up on thinking half measures tweaking the Middle 6 would be enough.

 

[bossram]

The last line is what I was pushing back on. If you believe those rumors to be true, it would point to a club that isn't married to the core group as currently constructed. They've bowed out struggling to score against elite competition 4 playoffs in a row (~1.81 GF/G in those series losses). At a certain point, even the most we like our group decision makers would give up on thinking half measures tweaking the Middle 6 would be enough.

Honestly, what I hope management would recognize is that RBA's systems are what's not conducive to scoring goals.

*ducks*

The Canes have some talented players who I think could produce even more (Aho, TT, Jarvis, Svech, Necas). But the, "chip it up, chip it in" and "shoot from the point" playbook doesn't let them utilize their creativity to the best of their abilities. RBA motivates them to work hard, but there is a hard cap on the offensive ceiling of this club, given how they play.

Horvat would help them tip in some more points shots though.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

The last line is what I was pushing back on. If you believe those rumors to be true, it would point to a club that isn't married to the core group as currently constructed. They've bowed out struggling to score against elite competition 4 playoffs in a row (~1.81 GF/G in those series losses). At a certain point, even the most we like our group decision makers would give up on thinking half measures tweaking the Middle 6 would be enough.

I like how it is a Devils fan arguing that the Canes wouldn't add serious futures to try and win the cup and that they will only do it from within (unless some 2c with term magically comes along) and a Canes fan is arguing that they would go for a rental to improve their chances.

As a Canucks fan, I say they would and try to re-sign him since they have tons of cap space. Very few roster spots needing to sign for next season (mostly 3rd pairing and bottom 6) and they will need to spend around 13m to hit the floor.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I like how it is a Devils fan arguing that the Canes wouldn't add serious futures to try and win the cup and that they will only do it from within (unless some 2c with term magically comes along) and a Canes fan is arguing that they would go for a rental to improve their chances.

As a Canucks fan, I say they would and try to re-sign him since they have tons of cap space. Very few roster spots needing to sign for next season (mostly 3rd pairing and bottom 6) and they will need to spend around 13m to hit the floor.

Just to clarify, I agree with that poster about the concept of Carolina not pursuing a rental Horvat. Horvat with an extension agreed upon could make sense.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Honestly, what I hope management would recognize is that RBA's systems are what's not conducive to scoring goals.

*ducks*

The Canes have some talented players who I think could produce even more (Aho, TT, Jarvis, Svech, Necas). But the, "chip it up, chip it in" and "shoot from the point" playbook doesn't let them utilize their creativity to the best of their abilities. RBA motivates them to work hard, but there is a hard cap on the offensive ceiling of this club, given how they play.

Horvat would help them tip in some more points shots though.

In Brind'Amour's defense, they have gotten the defensive results, thereby keeping things close 5v5. Special teams, the PP more specifically, has been the difference maker; their goal differential in those situations was -17 in those series against Boston (x2), Tampa and New York. Just my opinion: that's a talent problem.

 

[bossram]

I like how it is a Devils fan arguing that the Canes wouldn't add serious futures to try and win the cup and that they will only do it from within (unless some 2c with term magically comes along) and a Canes fan is arguing that they would go for a rental to improve their chances.

As a Canucks fan, I say they would and try to re-sign him since they have tons of cap space. Very few roster spots needing to sign for next season (mostly 3rd pairing and bottom 6) and they will need to spend around 13m to hit the floor.

I like how it is a Canucks fan arguing the Canes would add serious futures for a TDL rental...Hmm...sound familiar? Why are you, as a Canucks fan, opining on what the Canes need then?

I've followed the Canes very closely for a while. I own Canes apparel too. I've generally liked them since they were just the Corsi Kings days. All I'm saying is that, based on how their management operates, paying premium assets for a rental is something they're very unlikely to do. The Canes fan also said they wouldn't do it for a rental.

Your knowledge of the Canes cap sheet is pretty uninformed. After next season, they will have a lot of core pieces to re-sign or replace (Teravainen, Aho, Pesce, Skjei, Necas, and Jarvis). They'll need to plan out their salary allocation carefully - i.e. look more than simply one offseason in advance.

In Brind'Amour's defense, they have gotten the defensive results, thereby keeping things close 5v5. Special teams, the PP more specifically, has been the difference maker; their goal differential in those situations was -17 in those series against Boston (x2), Tampa and New York. Just my opinion: that's a talent problem.

In a short series, it's hard to read into special teams results. The samples are small.

Visually, I've never liked the look of the Canes PPs. There's too many point shots. And the main quarterback who sets up plays off the half wall is TT, when it should probably be Jarvis or Necas.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

I like how it is a Canucks fan arguing the Canes would add serious futures for a TDL rental...Hmm...sound familiar? Why are you, as a Canucks fan, opining on what the Canes need then?

I've followed the Canes very closely for a while. I own Canes apparel too. I've generally liked them since they were just the Corsi Kings days. All I'm saying is that, based on how their management operates, paying premium assets for a rental is something they're very unlikely to do. The Canes fan also said they wouldn't do it for a rental.

Your knowledge of the Canes cap sheet is pretty uninformed. After next season, they will have a lot of core pieces to re-sign or replace (Teravainen, Aho, Pesce, Skjei, Necas, and Jarvis). They'll need to plan out their salary allocation carefully - i.e. look more than simply one offseason in advance.

I never said rental, I said a signed Horvat, or the intention to try and sign him (something a lot of teams are reported to be wanting to do). As for cap. They will have 28-33m space next season. They need a proper 2c and then some 3rd pairing dmen, bottom 6 forwards and a goalie. They will likely be barely over the cap floor with Horvat signed. They could easily have 15-20m going into the next season after plus w/e the cap goes up by. That is more than enough to extend every player you just mentioned.

 

[bossram]

I never said rental, I said a signed Horvat, or the intention to try and sign him (something a lot of teams are reported to be wanting to do). As for cap. They will have 28-33m space next season. They need a proper 2c and then some 3rd pairing dmen, bottom 6 forwards and a goalie. They will likely be barely over the cap floor with Horvat signed. They could easily have 15-20m going into the next season after plus w/e the cap goes up by. That is more than enough to extend every player you just mentioned.

Then why are you arguing in bad faith against something I never said? And then making smarmy comments to others about it?

I've been extremely clear I was talking about a rental.

And no, you clearly did not consider the Canes' future cap situation. It seems like a lot of space, but it adds up quickly when every player listed will require a raise (in Necas' case a very large one) and I didn't even mention that all the cap space does not include finding another goaltender, which they'll need to do.

"Barely over the cap floor" is a hilariously bad estimation.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

Then why are you arguing in bad faith against something I never said? And then making smarmy comments to others about it?

I've been extremely clear I was talking about a rental.

And no, you clearly did not consider the Canes' future cap situation. It seems like a lot of space, but it adds up quickly when every player listed will require a raise (in Necas' case a very large one) and I didn't even mention that all the cap space does not include finding another goaltender, which they'll need to do.

"Barely over the cap floor" is a hilariously bad estimation.

You stated they don't have cap to sign him so he would only be a pure rental. I showed they can easily afford him AND resign all the core players you mentioned when the time came. I didn't even mention the nearly 4m in cap savings they get if the decide to buy out KK at any time (Maybe they send him to Vancouver in the deal)

Morrow, 23' 1st, 24'1st, KK for Horvat with either an extension in place or a Framework in place with the Canes knowing Bo is willing to sign and stay with the right contract.

Vancouver either hopes KK becomes a solid 3c in the future or buys him out when we need the cap space.

 

[bossram]

You stated they don't have cap to sign him so he would only be a pure rental. I showed they can easily afford him AND resign all the core players you mentioned when the time came. I didn't even mention the nearly 4m in cap savings they get if the decide to buy out KK at any time (Maybe they send him to Vancouver in the deal)

Morrow, 23' 1st, 24'1st, KK for Horvat with either an extension in place or a Framework in place with the Canes knowing Bo is willing to sign and stay with the right contract.

Vancouver either hopes KK becomes a solid 3c in the future or buys him out when we need the cap space.

You didn't actually show anything or provide any understanding of the Canes' cap situation other than saying, "lol they have so much cap space dummy".

Carolina 24-25:
Teravainen ($6.5M) - Aho ($9.5M) - Svechnikov ($7.75M)
Necas ($8M) - KK ($4.82M - Jarvis ($3.75M)
Winger ($2M) - Staal ($4M) - Winger ($2M)
Winger ($1.5M - Drury ($1M) - Winger ($1M)
Extra ($0.9M)

Slavin ($5.3M) - Burns ($5.28)
Top-four D ($5.5M) - Pesce ($5M)
Bottom D ($1.5M) - Bottom D ($1M)
Extra ($0.9M)

Kochetkov ($2M)
Tandem Goalie ($4M)

This runs to $83.2, which is above the current cap ceiling. It is doable with the cap increase + completely removing KK, you could add Horvat at about $8M per. But it doesn't leave them with any more cap flexibility, and then Slavin will also need to be re-signed the following season.

It is far, far, from "barely above the cap floor".

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

You didn't actually show anything or provide any understanding of the Canes' cap situation other than saying, "lol they have so much cap space dummy".

Carolina 24-25:
Teravainen ($6.5M) - Aho ($9.5M) - Svechnikov ($7.75M)
Necas ($8M) - KK ($4.82M - Jarvis ($3.75M)
Winger ($2M) - Staal ($4M) - Winger ($2M)
Winger ($1.5M - Drury ($1M) - Winger ($1M)
Extra ($0.9M)

Slavin ($5.3M) - Burns ($5.28)
Top-four D ($5.5M) - Pesce ($5M)
Bottom D ($1.5M) - Bottom D ($1M)
Extra ($0.9M)

Kochetkov ($2M)
Tandem Goalie ($4M)

This runs to $83.2, which is above the current cap ceiling. It is doable with the cap increase + completely removing KK, you could add Horvat at about $8M per. But it doesn't leave them with any more cap flexibility, and then Slavin will also need to be re-signed the following season.

It is far, far, from "barely above the cap floor".

1, do you really think 35 yo Staal gets 4m and multiple years? He will be year by year, and likely less than 4m in the 2024-25 season. Why is KK listed as 2c? Anyways if they trade him for Horvat, that is 4.8m off the books. if they buy him out, that is nearly 4m off the books. Here is a better and more accurate look.

Teravainen ($6.5M) - Aho ($9.5M) - Svechnikov ($7.75M)
Necas ($8M) - Horvat ($8m) - Jarvis ($3M)
KK ($4.82M - Staal ($3M) - Winger ($2M)
Winger ($1.5M - Drury ($1M) - Winger ($1M)
Extra ($0.9M)

Slavin ($5.3M) - Burns ($5.28)
Top-four D ($5.5M) - Pesce ($5M)
Bottom D ($1.5M) - Bottom D ($1M)
Extra ($0.9M)

Kochetkov ($2M)
Tandem Goalie ($4M)

87.75m (roughly) Cap expected to be higher than that. If not, buy out KK and get that winger for 2m and now you're around 85m.

 

[bossram]

1, do you really think 35 yo Staal gets 4m and multiple years? He will be year by year, and likely less than 4m in the 2024-25 season. Why is KK listed as 2c? Anyways if they trade him for Horvat, that is 4.8m off the books. if they buy him out, that is nearly 4m off the books. Here is a better and more accurate look.

Teravainen ($6.5M) - Aho ($9.5M) - Svechnikov ($7.75M)
Necas ($8M) - Horvat ($8m) - Jarvis ($3M)
KK ($4.82M - Staal ($3M) - Winger ($2M)
Winger ($1.5M - Drury ($1M) - Winger ($1M)
Extra ($0.9M)

Slavin ($5.3M) - Burns ($5.28)
Top-four D ($5.5M) - Pesce ($5M)
Bottom D ($1.5M) - Bottom D ($1M)
Extra ($0.9M)

Kochetkov ($2M)
Tandem Goalie ($4M)

87.75m (roughly) Cap expected to be higher than that. If not, buy out KK and get that winger for 2m and now you're around 85m.

After you copy all my evidence, you decide to actually do something. Laughable.

Again, the cap is tight. This is far, far from "barely above the cap floor" like you said.

 

[PAZ]

You stated they don't have cap to sign him so he would only be a pure rental. I showed they can easily afford him AND resign all the core players you mentioned when the time came. I didn't even mention the nearly 4m in cap savings they get if the decide to buy out KK at any time (Maybe they send him to Vancouver in the deal)

Morrow, 23' 1st, 24'1st, KK for Horvat with either an extension in place or a Framework in place with the Canes knowing Bo is willing to sign and stay with the right contract.

Vancouver either hopes KK becomes a solid 3c in the future or buys him out when we need the cap space.

TIL that Horvat is worth more than Eichel, Stone, Karlsson, or any player of note in the past decade.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

After you copy all my evidence, you decide to actually do something. Laughable.

Again, the cap is tight. This is far, far from "barely above the cap floor" like you said.

I said next season. Not the season after. Learn to read.

TIL that Horvat is worth more than Eichel, Stone, Karlsson, or any player of note in the past decade.

KK is a cap dump, negative value. That is less than those 3 got.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I really don't see Horvat ending up in Colorado unless the Avs look to re-sign him. If Horvat is traded, Vancouver management will look to move him to a team that will re-sign him to maximize his value.

 

[Putt Pirate]

Huh? Season is 25%+ over. What a weird way to spin that one. There are still 55-58 games left to be played.

Canucks are 8 pts ahead of the Ducks. 7 on the Blackhawks and 5 on the Sharks.

3-4 wins is the difference and with 55-58 games left, a lot can and will change.

Huh? Teams I have listed have a head start and much crapier rosters BEFORE the TDL let alone after. Like mid stream the nucks are going to attempt to tank. I LOL that.

 

[Rebels57]

Why pay up for Toews or Horvat when you can have Kevin Hayes for free?

 

[rocketdan9]

Friedman says he knows AVS are going to go for an all in trade at some point this season and he was convinced the moves were going to be later in the season, however with the Mackinnon injury, he thinks the timeline may be accelerated on when that move is going to happen whether its on Toews or Horvat.

But who can they give up in the process?

Not sure if either team would take Girard. May prefer Newhook, 1st type deal. Especially for Horvat