If Mackinnon can still be at his absolute peak next year (he'll be turning 30 before next season) him and McDavid 1, 2 down the middle is what might get us past the Americans.
MacKinnon has 150 points in his last 82 games
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The Panther
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I didn't say it was. I do think, however, that MacKinnon's prime years are now starting to match any comparable period of seasons that Crosby has had. I'm not knocking Crosby (who I love) here; I'm just saying that I think MacKinnon is being slightly under-rated.
From the 2019-20 season until today (5+ seasons in a row), MacKinnon has put up 522 points in 348 games, while going +118. If you break that down to per 82 games, it's 123 points per season, +32 per season, for over five years. That's an incredible period of greatness for more than five years (and he doesn't appear to be slowing down this year). Does Crosby have a five-year period that's comparable, offensively...? Sort-of, maybe... but not really, especially in light of how many partial seasons he was having in his prime.
The same, but maybe even more so, applies to Kucherov. Since 2018-19, Kucherov has 561 points in 373 games, or 123 points per season for almost six seasons (over seven years).
Even taking into account somewhat higher scoring in recent years compared to c.2006 to 2015, Crosby doesn't have any seasons (in my view) that reach the offensive peaks of MacKinnon and Kucherov. But maybe in overall impact over five or six seasons in a row, I can see Crosby being at their offensive level.
Again, with playoffs, I'm not seeing Crosby as better than them. Maybe Crosby and Kucherov have a somewhat better resume than MacKinnon, as his Cup-win year isn't quite up at Crosby '09 or Kucherov '20 / '21 levels.
What it all comes down to, for me, is that I would tend to 'rank' Crosby, Ovechkin, Kucherov, and MacKinnon all about equal... but that's assuming the younger two don't abruptly fall off a cliff tomorrow.
- Aug 24, 2011
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It's not comparable man. They're different tiers of players. MacKinnon is 29 years old now, by the time Crosby finished his 29 year old season he...
-Won 3 Cups
-2 Smythes
-2 Hart trophies
-2 Ross trophies
-2 Richard trophies
-3 Pearson trophies
-Has Hart Finishes of [2, 2, 3, 5, 6,
-In 2010/11 he was on pace for 132 points before getting injured 41 games into the season
-In 2011/12 he was on pace for 138 points before getting injured 22 games into the season
-in 2012/13 he was on pace for 127 points before getting injured 36 games into the season and still won the Pearson
Crosby legitimately has an argument for 3 more Ross trophies and at least 2 more Hart and Pearson trophies. By age 29 he realistically could have had: 4 Harts (3rd most all time), 5 Ross (tied 3rd most all time), 5 Pearson trophies (tied 1st all time). MacKinnon having a couple 140+pt seasons and 1 Hart isn't in the same stratosphere as Crosby. The statistical output is meaningless across eras when you have this CLEAR level of dominance over your peers.
If you're follow up argument is MacKinnon's trophy case is barren because of McDavid...well Crosby is in the same tier as McDavid and he'd be doing the same thing to the league McDavid is now. There's no argument for this whatsoever man. MacKinnon is a phenomenal player, 1st ballot HoFer, incredibly exciting to watch, I love the guy and his compete/passion for the game. He's not at Crosby's level.
The Panther
Registered User
Nobody cares about pace in 20 or 40 games played. I mean, seriously...?
Umm... I'm not sure if you're aware what the Art Ross trophy is. Let me explain: "The Art Ross Trophy is awarded to the National Hockey League (NHL) player who leads the league in points at the end of the regular season."
Nobody has an "argument" for Art Ross trophies you didn't win (well, except Gretzky in '80 and Lindros in '95). You either had the most points or you didn't.
Anyway, I think I've made my points. I appreciate your arguments, but you haven't changed my mind.
- Aug 24, 2011
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In 2010/11 D. Sedin won the Ross with 104 points. You can seriously argue you don't believe Crosby would have scored 39 more points in the remaining 41 games to win the Ross?
In 2011/12 Malkin won the Ross with 109 points. This one is a little bit more difficult to forecast I bet but Crosby would've needed 72 points in 60 games to pass up Malkin.
I think considering from the 2011 season to the 2013 season he had 159 points in 99 games, a 132 point pace, it's NOT a stretch to say that's the level he would've finished at or at the very least close to it. Unless he had 3 crazy hot starts to start the season 3 times in a row.
The argument is a reasonable one. MacKinnon hasn't touched this level of dominance despite being a fantastic player himself. That's because MacKinnon isn't going to retire as a top 5 or 6 player of all time. There's a difference and your argument is weak.
As a Jets fan, MacKinnon was terrifying everytime he was on the ice tonight.
Crosby’s top 3 playoff runs are all better than MacKinnon’s in raw points even before adjusting for era. Crosby had 170 points in 99 straight games from 2010-13, when the rest of the top scorers were barely hovering above a point per game. Partial seasons or not there is no way MacKinnon’s peak or prime are as good as Crosby’s even considering offense only and ignoring overall play altogether. Crosby led the NHL in points per game 6 times to MacKinnon’s O.
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He skates with so much speed and ferocity out there it's honestly incredible watching him. McDavid has a step on him for sure but MacKinnon is still FAST and has this physicality to his game McDavid doesn't.
Plus one guy is playing most of his ice time with Rantanen and Makar, the other was even more impressive while playing with Kunitz and Dupuis.
Think about this, 58 goals and 112 assists in 99 straight games in that timeframe is actually crazier than anything McDavid has done when adjusted for era, the only problem is it combines the end of one full season with 3 partial ones. Adjusted to todays scoring that would be like 70 goals and 200 points.
Good call. The more I think about it it’s really not that close between them.
McKinnon is definitely flashier. As a jets fan never feared Crosby as much, but, that’s just one person’s opinion.
One better full season but their peak level of play, as measured by PPG dominance over their peers, was similar.
If you want to make an argument that Malkin was on Mario's level and influenced Crosby's point totals go right ahead.
Crosby's Top 10 Point finishes: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6
MacKinnon's Top 10 Point finishes: 2, 5, 5, 5, 8, 8
REMOVE DUPLICATES:
Crosby: 1,1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6
MacKinnon: 5, 5, 5, 8, 8
Crosby's Top 10 PPG finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1*, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, * 22 games
MacKinnon's Top 10 PPG finishes: 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10
REMOVE DUPLICATES:
Crosby: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
MacKinnon: 7, 10
Noone should look at those numbers and wonder if there is anything else other than a clearly superior resume that needs deeper digging.
MacKinnon's Top 10 Point finishes: 2, 5, 5, 5, 8, 8
REMOVE DUPLICATES:
Crosby: 1,1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6
MacKinnon: 5, 5, 5, 8, 8
Crosby's Top 10 PPG finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1*, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, * 22 games
MacKinnon's Top 10 PPG finishes: 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10
REMOVE DUPLICATES:
Crosby: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
MacKinnon: 7, 10
Noone should look at those numbers and wonder if there is anything else other than a clearly superior resume that needs deeper digging.
dirtydanglez
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crosby is clearly the better and more accomplished player. nate was a late bloomer while crosby hit right away. nate also had to compete again prime mcdavid. you would have to drop most of crosby's finishes down a spot if he had prime mcdavid as well.
Nate bloomed 7 seasons ago. He had lots of opportunities to show he was the clear 2nd best player in the league but his point finishes and PPG finishes beg to differ.
McDavid has one, full, non-Covid affected season that was clearly better than Crosby's best full season.
Through their respective first nine seasons, they would have been battling for Art Rosses (or PPG titles).
dirtydanglez
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mcdavid is being hindered by bad management. he's the best player since lemieux stuck behind one of the worst front offices since wang.
as far as nate goes he's the 2nd forward now but the gap between him and kuch is very small. you could also soon see matthews or hughes challenge for that spot. as i said before he and crosby aren't on the same level, crosby is the better and more accomplished player.
- Aug 24, 2011
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That’s hardly a guarantee. We’re not sure what would happen if Crosby and McDavid were both in their primes at the same time
I won't bother responding to your other message about discounting Crosby's ppg at #1....somehow you say in reality it was only 3-4 even though he lead in PPG in 4 seasons while also being top 4 in overall points.....how it is possible that you think in reality he could only be considered ppg leader 3 times. Your arguments are simply too obvious as trying to find ways to discount his career vs. others. People talk about PPG with him and throw up all over it because of injuries and missed games.....but then you can point to the fact that he may finish in top 5 for points in the history of the game....so then what's the argument? Compiler? That can't be true because of all those games he missed right?
Anyway, back to the comment about consecutive seasons in a row. I'll give you he missed some games in this stretch, but he lead the league in PPG for 5 seasons in a row, top 6 for 12 straight seasons.
Crosby has 60 points in 45 games against the Jets....MacKinnon has 38 points in 40 games against the Jets.
I do think MacKinnon, is probably a more physically gifted player and flashier as you say...though earlier in Crosby career, he did have some pretty crazy highlights. But Crosby has more hockey sense if that makes any sense...pardon the pun. He also do more better. For example, you could probably argue Crosby is one of if not the best faceoff guys in the league now (after sucking his first year or so).
AD1066
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McDavid looks graceful and fluid, MacKinnon looks like he's attacking the ice with each step. I imagine he could have been a football linebacker in another life.
This is interesting too. Gretzky was robbed that year (1980), not from Art Ross as the tiebreaker rule is the rule....though his season was more impressive in my mind than Dionne's simply due to age. He was absolutely robbed of the Calder by a stupid, stupid rule. Gretzky, starting the year as an 18 year old, isn't eligible for rookie of the year because he played as a 17 year old in the WHL.....meanwhile you have Forsberg, Selanne, Alfredsson, Panarin and Makarov winning when starting at the ages of 21, 22, 23, 24 and 31 respectively after playing years of pro hockey in Europe.
Anyway, the real interesting thing as well: have a look at NHL.com stats for these years:
1979/80:
1. Gretzky - 79gp, 51g, 137pts
2. Dionne - 81gp, 53g, 137pts
1994/95:
1. Lindros - 46gp, 29g, 70pts
2. Jagr - 48gp, 32g, 70pts
2009/10:
1. Sedin - 82gp, 29g, 112pts
2. Ovechkin - 72gp, 50g, 109pts
3. Crosby - 81gp, 51g, 109pts
So, NHL.com shows Gretzky and Lindros as #1 in points and Ovechkin as #2, ahead of Crosby at #3..all because of games played as being lower for them, but in each case, Dionne, Jagr and Crosby scored more goals.....so they would win the Art Ross due to tiebreaker (for Crosby if Sedin didn't exist)....why does NHL.com show it this way? I get showing it that way during the season, but by the end you should show it the way it would appear based on tie-breaker rules.
Interesting take. In what way has McDavid not been able to max out his offensive potential, most notably in comparison to Crosby?
dirtydanglez
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i think the quality of his teammates is much lower because the oilers front office has saddled the team with bad contracts and poor drafting/development.
