MacKinnon has 150 points in his last 82 games

[dirtydanglez]

05-06 and 06-07 can be looked at the same for Jagr and Crosby since therye obviously 1 year apart.

The other being 95-96 since for whatever reason you didnt want to mention it and make me do the work, which was the end of the crazy scoring/beginning of the dead puck era.

98-99 and 00-01 had dramatically less scoring so domination Jagr.

95-96: 6408
98-99: 5266
00-01: 5230
05-06: 6012
06-07: 6039
13-14: 5923

I dont quite understand the point of downplaying 95-96 for being crazy scoring, but ignoring 98-99 and 00-01 for being dramatically down in scoring, which obviously makes what Jagr accomplished that much more special.



If you're using the word "fascinating" sarcastically in a response, it still follows the general rule of capitalization:

• Capitalize it only if it's the first word of a sentence.

For example:

• "Fascinating!" (capitalized because it's the start of the sentence)
• "That’s fascinating." (not capitalized because it’s in the middle of the sentence)

The sarcastic tone doesn’t affect the capitalization rule. It’s purely based on where the word appears in the sentence. So, if you're at the start of a sentence, capitalize it, but if it's in the middle, leave it lowercase.

go on

 

[x Tame Impala]

The fact that daver of all people is using Ovechkin stats to discredit other players is mind boggling, am I in an alternate universe

Anyway, people can see with their eyeballs that Mack and Kuch have along with McDavid been the best 3 forwards of this current generation, and in the last few years Mack and Kuch have essentially caught up with McDavid in terms of scoring prowess. So I think the gap between them and the OG big 3 in Crosby/Ovi/Malkin is quite close.

What do they have over the elder pair? Well for starters 140 point seasons, 100 assists for Kuch/McDavid and more to come since their careers are far from over.

You really don't think Prime Crosby, Ovie, and Malkin would be putting up 140 point seasons in today's NHL?

Posters fool themselves by looking at the raw scoring numbers too often on HF.

 

[daver]

Mack and Kuch are never going to be considered Crosby-Jagr level, just due to how their careers started, but the past 2,3 years they’ve absolutely dominated around the level of peak Jagr and Crosby.

Let's pump the brakes here. It's been 1 year and 15 games where they have hit the level they are at. Let's see another full season before treating last season as anything other than an outlier from their careers to date.

Just ignoring McDavid, and their PPG lead over #3 (Draisaitl) is just around .2 and their lead in PPG in comparison to the 10th best scorer is around .4 (Marner/Matthews)

Where are these numbers coming from?

 

[tfwnogf]

You really don't think Prime Crosby, Ovie, and Malkin would be putting up 140 point seasons in today's NHL?

Posters fool themselves by looking at the raw scoring numbers too often on HF.

Who knows. My point is they never did it, while Kuch, McDavid and Mack did. Talking eras is silly. This is not 80s level of scoring today and Ovi/Crosby/Malkin didn't play in the dead puck era. Scoring went down after their primes but not during.

 

[daver]

The gap is obviously different but Lemieux/McDavid IMO is just on a higher level offensively than all these guys.

Mario lost Art Rosses to one player, Wayne. McDavid has been beaten by Kucherov, Mac and Draisaitl. Kucherov's season last year was just a bit below McDavid's 22/23 season, and Mac was close behind.

McDavid is not on Mario level.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Who knows. My point is they never did it, while Kuch, McDavid and Mack did. Talking eras is silly. This is not 80s level of scoring today and Ovi/Crosby/Malkin didn't play in the dead puck era. Scoring went down after their primes but not during.

It's silly if you don't want to hear the facts. League average scoring is up significantly compared to the time the Big 3 were in their primes. You're being obtuse.

Decrease in goalie equipment size, a generally less physical league, 32 teams instead of 30 watering down the talent, PP% is up in this era and PK% is down compared to their era, etc...We'll never know for certain but I don't see it as any sort of stretch to say plopping prime Crosby and Ovechkin into today's game would see them outperform Kucherov and MacKinnon.

 

[tfwnogf]

It's silly if you don't want to hear the facts. League average scoring is up significantly compared to the time the Big 3 were in their primes. You're being obtuse.

Decrease in goalie equipment size, a generally less physical league, 32 teams instead of 30 watering down the talent, PP% is up in this era and PK% is down compared to their era, etc...We'll never know for certain but I don't see it as any sort of stretch to say plopping prime Crosby and Ovechkin into today's game would see them outperform Kucherov and MacKinnon.

Maybe they do maybe they don't. But they didn't, so who cares.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Who knows. My point is they never did it, while Kuch, McDavid and Mack did. Talking eras is silly. This is not 80s level of scoring today and Ovi/Crosby/Malkin didn't play in the dead puck era. Scoring went down after their primes but not during.

It dropped heavily from 07-08 through 16-17. That would be Crosby's career from 21 to 29 and for Ovechkin from 23 to 31. Seems like pretty prime years to me. 11/12 through 16/17 actually did drop to near or below dead puck era levels for top 6 players during that time. No one broke 120 points from 07/08 until 18/19. We just saw fourth place finish with 120 last season.

 

[Romang67]

Who knows. My point is they never did it, while Kuch, McDavid and Mack did. Talking eras is silly. This is not 80s level of scoring today and Ovi/Crosby/Malkin didn't play in the dead puck era. Scoring went down after their primes but not during.

They sure didn't. They played in the DPE 2.0, where scoring levels were largely indistinguishable from the DPE.

 

[tfwnogf]

It dropped heavily from 07-08 through 16-17. That would be Crosby's career from 21 to 29 and for Ovechkin from 23 to 31. Seems like pretty prime years to me. 11/12 through 16/17 actually did drop to near or below dead puck era levels for top 6 players during that time.

Maybe but Crosby was injured and Ovechkin's production dropped like a rock cause of the coach or whatever. So age wise yeah it's their primes but in reality their production wasn't that great. Does a 100% healthy Crosby and Ovechkin who has a coach that lets him do his thing hit 140 today? Maybe.

They sure didn't. They played in the DPE 2.0, where scoring levels were largely indistinguishable from the DPE.

past their prime they did yeah

 

[Romang67]

Maybe but Crosby was injured and Ovechkin's production dropped like a rock cause of the coach or whatever. So age wise yeah it's their primes but in reality their production wasn't that great. Does a 100% healthy Crosby and Ovechkin who has a coach that lets him do his thing hit 140 today? Maybe.


past their prime they did yeah

Are you saying they were past their prime because their scoring dropped?

Because the DPE 2.0 started around 2010, when Crosby was 23.

 

[tfwnogf]

Are you saying they were past their prime because their scoring dropped?

Because the DPE 2.0 started around 2010, when Crosby was 23.

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest NHL League Averages including shots, saves, goal averages and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

scoring never went as low as dpe 1.0. in 2010 scoring was 2.84, dpe was in the 2.6x's for a large chunk of it.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Maybe but Crosby was injured and Ovechkin's production dropped like a rock cause of the coach or whatever. So age wise yeah it's their primes but in reality their production wasn't that great. Does a 100% healthy Crosby and Ovechkin who has a coach that lets him do his thing hit 140 today? Maybe.


past their prime they did yeah

Crosby won the Hart and Art Ross in 13-14, was first in ppg in 14-15 and probably takes it if he doesn't miss 5 games (admittedly not his greatest season but he was still the best offensive player in the league at the time), and then in 16-17 wins the rocket while putting up 89 pts in 75 games, a 97 points pace that would have seen him finish 3 points behind McDavid for the scoring title. That is still very much best player in the world territory.

 

[tfwnogf]

Crosby won the Hart and Art Ross in 13-14, was first in ppg in 14-15 and probably takes it if he doesn't miss 5 games (admittedly not his greatest season but he was still the best offensive player in the league at the time), and then in 16-17 wins the rocket while putting up 89 pts in 75 games, a 97 points pace that would have seen him finish 3 points behind McDavid for the scoring title. That is still very much best player in the world territory.

Nobody is saying he wasn't best player in the world. But he was 100% past his prime. Does 2011 pre injury Crosby lose to Jamie Benn? No he doesn't. Past his prime unfortunately due to injury, but past it regardless. Sucks but is what it is.

 

[Romang67]

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest NHL League Averages including shots, saves, goal averages and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

scoring never went as low as dpe 1.0. in 2010 scoring was 2.84, dpe was in the 2.6x's for a large chunk of it.

In the 10/11 season, scoring was 2.79. In the two seasons 99-01, scoring was 2.755. The difference between the majority of the DPE and the period 2010-2017 is around 0.1.

Today's scoring (around 3.15) is closer to the early 90s (around 3.5) than to the period 2010-2017 (around 2.75).

 

[benfranklin]

What are these numbers?

Here are the league GPGs:

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest NHL League Averages including shots, saves, goal averages and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

98/99 - 2.63
00/01 - 2.74
13/14 - 2.74

Notice the number of PPs in 13/14, the scoring environment for the elite scorers was even lower in that year, and in the years before and after due to less PPs being called.

Jagr has one season, without Mario, in 98/99, that was clearly better than Crosby's best full season. Their per game domination was similar, as it is to McDavid's.



Crosby was 19, the only teenager in NA sports history to win a scoring title.

Overall goals per season that is for all teams.

I dont know how this got into Jagr vs Crosby lol.

Sid at 19 is obviously insanely impressive. Jagr at 34 wouldve been the oldest in 2006. Can argue all day on which is more difficult, but then we saw Lidstorom peak at 31 so who the f knows.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

So, super recency bias is probably the problem here.

At the same age vs. MacKinnon:

- MacKinnon = 791gp, 899pts, 1.14ppg
- Crosby = 70gp, 933pts, 1.33ppg

At the same age vs. Kucherov:

- Kucherov = 725gp, 873pts, 1.20ppg
- Crosby = 864gp, 1,116pts, 1.29ppg

So, even with all his injury trouble that hit when he was just starting to dominate the league, he still has more raw points than both at this points in their respective careers and Crosby did that during a much lower scoring era.

Also, looking at where they finish in the scoring in terms of raw points and PPG:

Points:

- Number 1 - Crosby (2), Mack (0), Kuch (2)
- Top 2 - Crosby (3), Mack (1), Kuch (2)
- Top 3 - Crosby (8), Mack (3), Kuch (4)
- Top 4 - Crosby (9), Mack (3), Kuch (4)
- Top 6 - Crosby (10), Mack (4), Kuch (5)

PPG:

- Number 1 - Crosby (6), Mack (0), Kuch (2)
- Top 2 - Crosby (8), Mack (1), Kuch (3)
- Top 3 - Crosby (9), Mack (3), Kuch (3)
- Top 5 - Crosby (11), Mack (5), Kuch (6)
- Top 6 - Crosby (12), Mack (6), Kuch (6)

This is just on offensive production as well....I think most would separate Crosby from these two for various other reasons.

Crosby has been top 2 in scoring 4 times just a quick fix

 

[benfranklin]

go on

Did you miss the example right after that?

• "Fascinating!" (capitalized because it's the start of the sentence)
• "That’s fascinating." (not capitalized because it’s in the middle of the sentence)

The sarcastic tone doesn’t affect the capitalization rule. It’s purely based on where the word appears in the sentence. So, if you're at the start of a sentence, capitalize it, but if it's in the middle, leave it lowercase.

I could not care less how you type. I will simply block you, but you'll continue to appear illiterate to everyone else. Trying to help.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Nobody is saying he wasn't best player in the world. But he was 100% past his prime. Does 2011 pre injury Crosby lose to Jamie Benn? No he doesn't. Past his prime unfortunately due to injury, but past it regardless. Sucks but is what it is.

Crosby came back after the concussion and proceeded to run away with the scoring title in 12/13 before breaking his jaw, then won the scoring title by a large margin in 13/14. He was not the same goal scorer after the concussions (while still managing to win a Rocket mind you). I feel you're exaggerating the fall off a bit here.

I'm not saying Sid and Ovi blow Mackinnon and Kucherov away or anything. But in that time period I mentioned, only Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby even paced for close to or above 120 points. The fall off they went you're claiming they went through is exaggerated by how low scoring dropped.

 

[daver]

Overall goals per season that is for all teams.

I dont know how this got into Jagr vs Crosby lol.

Sid at 19 is obviously insanely impressive. Jagr at 34 wouldve been the oldest in 2006. Can argue all day on which is more difficult, but then we saw Lidstorom peak at 31 so who the f knows.

You do know there were more teams in 13/14 right?

As for your point, Jagr had a great comeback year in 05/06 after tanking since 00/01. He obviously has the talent to do so but may have been especially motivated that year. He was outside the Top 10 in PPG in 03/04 and in 06/07, so hard to say that he was playing at Art Ross threat level in his 30s.

He had one season, w/o Mario, that was more dominant than Crosby relative to their peers.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You really don't think Prime Crosby, Ovie, and Malkin would be putting up 140 point seasons in today's NHL?

Posters fool themselves by looking at the raw scoring numbers too often on HF.

Even if you adjust the numbers to equalize scoring context, McDavid/Kucherov/MacKinnon have been putting up numbers the past couple of years that significantly exceed anything Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin did.

Just as an example, the league in 2007 wasn’t so much lower scoring as to close the gap between Crosby’s career high 120 and McDavid’s 153. Not only is there still a gap, but it’s a decent sized one (hockey-reference has it as 122-146, which is really quite substantial any way you cut it). And that was back when Crosby was still a bit soft and defensively leaky compared to what he became later.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby went 5 straight years top 3 in scoring after his concussion. Only mcdavid can lay claim to that type of level

 

[BKarchitect]

This thread is fun albeit kinda jumped the shark from the original statement to a really interesting convo on historical perspective and eras. I need to spend more time on the History board….

 

[Offtheboard412]

Even if you adjust the numbers to equalize scoring context, McDavid/Kucherov/MacKinnon have been putting up numbers the past couple of years that significantly exceed anything Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin did.

Just as an example, the league in 2007 wasn’t so much lower scoring as to close the gap between Crosby’s career high 120 and McDavid’s 153. Not only is there still a gap, but it’s a decent sized one (hockey-reference has it as 122-146, which is really quite substantial any way you cut it). And that was back when Crosby was still a bit soft and defensively leaky compared to what he became later.

Malkin's 11/12 season adjusts very close to what they're doing. Ovechkin's 09/10 does as well. Definitely not a significant gap. It's been went over a few times in a couple different threads on here although I admittedly don't have the patience to go through and link them all on my phone.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It's silly if you don't want to hear the facts. League average scoring is up significantly compared to the time the Big 3 were in their primes. You're being obtuse.

Decrease in goalie equipment size, a generally less physical league, 32 teams instead of 30 watering down the talent, PP% is up in this era and PK% is down compared to their era, etc...We'll never know for certain but I don't see it as any sort of stretch to say plopping prime Crosby and Ovechkin into today's game would see them outperform Kucherov and MacKinnon.

Seriously, the game has changed. Gathering that much speed through the neutral zone simply wasn't possible back then, pp efficiencies are sky high due to smaller goalie pads, and en points are abundant due to coaches pulling goalies earlier. All the changes provide outsized advantages to top scorers. You can even look at Crosby's numbers - 84 points at age 27, 94 points at age 36.